Should Welfare Recipients Be Allowed To Vote?

[goldcatt]

Without an Amendment to the Constitution barring people from voting based on taxation is Unconstitutional.

Now if you propose such an Amendment, guess what? The untaxed get to vote on it in every State.

There is nothing at all in the document to prevent people that do not pay taxes from voting. In fact such an effort would fail on legal grounds due to discrimination.

And can you imagine the Government entity that would have to exist to enforce such a law? We can not ask for ID now, how exactly do you expect to stop people from voting? Purge all the rolls and require everyone to re register?

And since the States register people to vote EACH individual State would need the same Government entity with access to EVERYONES IRS accounts. It would require Attorneys, accountants and law enforcement as well as just plain old Government employees.

All because someone is jealous that someone else did not pay any taxes.

I would add, since it's bound to come up, the reason States are allowed to deny convicted felons the right to vote (and not all do) is that denial of a right due to voluntary criminal behavior is not discrimination. Discrimination is government disparate treatment of groups based on class or status, not criminal activity.

Pragmatically, it'll never happen. It's simply not feasible. But leaving the practicality aside, it's both unconstitutional and illegal under Federal statute for States to deny anyone the right to vote due to financial status. Seems to me the OP is trying to find a way around that pesky ole 24th Amendment, which ended not only the poll tax but discrimination in voting based on payment of all taxes. Read the text.

 

[Madeline]

What a lovely thread to read first thing in the morning. Even RGS spanked this nut! Go RGS!

That's not the infamous Pubes, is it? Will he melt again?

 

[goldcatt]

Nah, Pubes was a nutter but he occasionally had two brain cells to rub together and make a spark. He probably also had read the entire Constitution, not just the parts written in the 18th Century.

 

[Madeline]

Without an Amendment to the Constitution barring people from voting based on taxation is Unconstitutional.

Now if you propose such an Amendment, guess what? The untaxed get to vote on it in every State.

There is nothing at all in the document to prevent people that do not pay taxes from voting. In fact such an effort would fail on legal grounds due to discrimination.

And can you imagine the Government entity that would have to exist to enforce such a law? We can not ask for ID now, how exactly do you expect to stop people from voting? Purge all the rolls and require everyone to re register?

And since the States register people to vote EACH individual State would need the same Government entity with access to EVERYONES IRS accounts. It would require Attorneys, accountants and law enforcement as well as just plain old Government employees.

All because someone is jealous that someone else did not pay any taxes.

I would add, since it's bound to come up, the reason States are allowed to deny convicted felons the right to vote (and not all do) is that denial of a right due to voluntary criminal behavior is not discrimination. Discrimination is government disparate treatment of groups based on class or status, not criminal activity.

Pragmatically, it'll never happen. It's simply not feasible. But leaving the practicality aside, it's both unconstitutional and illegal under Federal statute for States to deny anyone the right to vote due to financial status. Seems to me the OP is trying to find a way around that pesky ole 24th Amendment, which ended not only the poll tax but discrimination in voting based on payment of all taxes. Read the text.

Not to steal mah more articulate sista's thunder, but you'd also have to repeal the Voting Rights Act of 1964.

Which is sacred to most Americans, and which would be repealed over my dead body.

 

[Madeline]

Nah, Pubes was a nutter but he occasionally had two brain cells to rub together and make a spark. He probably also had read the entire Constitution, not just the parts written in the 18th Century.

I keep hoping......

 

[Sallow]

What does the Constitution say about who can and cannot vote?

Its up to the states. Voting is a privilage, not a right.

No.

The Constitution specifically outlines a Republican form of government..or one of elected representatives:

Section 4 - Republican government

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

This outlines the Electoral Congress:

Amendment 12 - Choosing the President, Vice-President. Ratified 6/15/1804. Note History The Electoral College

The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;

The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;

The person having the greatest Number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President.

The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.

This specifically grants the right to vote to everyone:

Amendment 15 - Race No Bar to Vote. Ratified 2/3/1870. History

1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

This gives the people the right to vote for Senators:

Amendment 17 - Senators Elected by Popular Vote. Ratified 4/8/1913. History

The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, elected by the people thereof, for six years; and each Senator shall have one vote. The electors in each State shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the State legislatures.

When vacancies happen in the representation of any State in the Senate, the executive authority of such State shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies: Provided, That the legislature of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct.

This amendment shall not be so construed as to affect the election or term of any Senator chosen before it becomes valid as part of the Constitution.

This gives women the right to vote.

Amendment 19 - Women's Suffrage. Ratified 8/18/1920. History

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Hope that clears it up for you.

 

[goldcatt]

Without an Amendment to the Constitution barring people from voting based on taxation is Unconstitutional.

Now if you propose such an Amendment, guess what? The untaxed get to vote on it in every State.

There is nothing at all in the document to prevent people that do not pay taxes from voting. In fact such an effort would fail on legal grounds due to discrimination.

And can you imagine the Government entity that would have to exist to enforce such a law? We can not ask for ID now, how exactly do you expect to stop people from voting? Purge all the rolls and require everyone to re register?

And since the States register people to vote EACH individual State would need the same Government entity with access to EVERYONES IRS accounts. It would require Attorneys, accountants and law enforcement as well as just plain old Government employees.

All because someone is jealous that someone else did not pay any taxes.

I would add, since it's bound to come up, the reason States are allowed to deny convicted felons the right to vote (and not all do) is that denial of a right due to voluntary criminal behavior is not discrimination. Discrimination is government disparate treatment of groups based on class or status, not criminal activity.

Pragmatically, it'll never happen. It's simply not feasible. But leaving the practicality aside, it's both unconstitutional and illegal under Federal statute for States to deny anyone the right to vote due to financial status. Seems to me the OP is trying to find a way around that pesky ole 24th Amendment, which ended not only the poll tax but discrimination in voting based on payment of all taxes. Read the text.

Not to steal mah more articulate sista' thunder, but you'd also have to repeal the Voting Rights Act of 1964.

Which is sacred to most Americans, and which would be repealed over my dead body.

Exactly.

Not to mention the Due Process and Equal Protection clauses of the 14th. Which means the rights protected by the Constitution would no longer apply to the States through incorporation. There's a great idea, let's allow the State governments to trample all over free speech, the right to bear arms, freedom of religion, the right to a jury trial, protection from unreasonable search and seizure...all to get those welfare recipients. No problem.

Add in repealing the 24th and the OP is going to have a lot of fun with this one.

 

[Madeline]

I would add, since it's bound to come up, the reason States are allowed to deny convicted felons the right to vote (and not all do) is that denial of a right due to voluntary criminal behavior is not discrimination. Discrimination is government disparate treatment of groups based on class or status, not criminal activity.

Pragmatically, it'll never happen. It's simply not feasible. But leaving the practicality aside, it's both unconstitutional and illegal under Federal statute for States to deny anyone the right to vote due to financial status. Seems to me the OP is trying to find a way around that pesky ole 24th Amendment, which ended not only the poll tax but discrimination in voting based on payment of all taxes. Read the text.

Not to steal mah more articulate sista' thunder, but you'd also have to repeal the Voting Rights Act of 1964.

Which is sacred to most Americans, and which would be repealed over my dead body.

Exactly.

Not to mention the Due Process and Equal Protection clauses of the 14th. Which means the rights protected by the Constitution would no longer apply to the States through incorporation. There's a great idea, let's allow the State governments to trample all over free speech, the right to bear arms, freedom of religion, the right to a jury trial, protection from unreasonable search and seizure...all to get those welfare recipients. No problem.

Add in repealing the 24th and the OP is going to have a lot of fun with this one.

I think he really wants to throw out the entire constitution and start from scratch.

Huggy and High Gravity have this fool's number.

 

[AllieBaba]

Yes they should, but I would like to see a basic literacy test for voter registrations. And of course I.D.

More BIG GOVERNMENT getting in the way of our BASIC FREEDOMS huh?

Nice!

Because we all heard of mentally retarded people being told who to vote for. Remember Acorn?

Why would you say something so, not only alarming, but patently false? What happened to A.C.O.R.N. was nothing short of an attack and smear job intended to malign them and ultimately shut them down. Because of the political climate the GOVERNMENT rushed to judgement and cause a PRIVATE organization to go down. All the CLAIMS leveled against it has been since PROVEN to be FALSE.

You would do well to quit repeating it.

Er...no, the claims against Acorn weren't proven to be false, you nitwit. Quite the opposite. On multiple occasions.

I know this is one of those instances when you like to pretend the individual agents acting FOR acorn are completely independent of that corrupt organization, but it doesn't was. Which is why Acorn is no more in it's original form. Criminals always go underground and change their names when things get hot.

 

[goldcatt]

Not to steal mah more articulate sista' thunder, but you'd also have to repeal the Voting Rights Act of 1964.

Which is sacred to most Americans, and which would be repealed over my dead body.

Exactly.

Not to mention the Due Process and Equal Protection clauses of the 14th. Which means the rights protected by the Constitution would no longer apply to the States through incorporation. There's a great idea, let's allow the State governments to trample all over free speech, the right to bear arms, freedom of religion, the right to a jury trial, protection from unreasonable search and seizure...all to get those welfare recipients. No problem.

Add in repealing the 24th and the OP is going to have a lot of fun with this one.

I think he really wants to throw out the entire constitution and start from scratch.

Huggy and High Gravity have this fool's number.

His name says it all, he just wants to go back to the way people lived in 1787. You know, when in most states only white male landowners could vote. And don't forget at that time it was before developments like the Married Womens Property Act and the 13th Amendment.

People like that slay me, they really do. Studying the Framers (they always say the Founders - uh, no. Read your history - the Founding was 8 years before the Framing) is good and all, but there's a whole lot of stuff that happened in between then and now. They never quite seem to grasp that history moved on even if they can't, and that it all works together. Messing with one thing causes effects through the entire system - regardless of when it was added.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

Acting under the assumption that taxation without representation is wrong, isn’t representation without taxation wrong as well? In a time when 47% of households pay absolutely no tax at all, can we justify those who do not pay taxes to be able to vote on how much the taxpaying citizen’s pay for the services of government that we all benefit from?

Everyone pays taxes.

Ezra Klein - Do the poor really pay no taxes?

The poor pay just as much (or more) of their measly income in taxes:

Like: payroll taxes, sales tax, state and local tax, property tax, gasoline tax etc. If you have a problem with people owing no federal income tax, take that up with the tax credit. The poor are paying more in their proportional wealth in taxes than are the middle and upper classes ever will. What more do you want... to enslave them? Put them in debtor's prison for being poor? You want to take away their right to vote? Really? Corporations would LOVE that. Then the working poor would have absolutely no voice in this nation (not that they have much of one anymore to begin with).

 

[Madeline]

More BIG GOVERNMENT getting in the way of our BASIC FREEDOMS huh?

Nice!

Why would you say something so, not only alarming, but patently false? What happened to A.C.O.R.N. was nothing short of an attack and smear job intended to malign them and ultimately shut them down. Because of the political climate the GOVERNMENT rushed to judgement and cause a PRIVATE organization to go down. All the CLAIMS leveled against it has been since PROVEN to be FALSE.

You would do well to quit repeating it.

Er...no, the claims against Acorn weren't proven to be false, you nitwit. Quite the opposite. On multiple occasions.

I know this is one of those instances when you like to pretend the individual agents acting FOR acorn are completely independent of that corrupt organization, but it doesn't was. Which is why Acorn is no more in it's original form. Criminals always go underground and change their names when things get hot.

There are people who still think Bush stole the election from Gore.

Wanna beat that drum s'more too?

 

[High_Gravity]

I blame this on Bush.

 

[Madeline]

I blame this on Bush.

There ya go!

 

[Mr. Shaman]

A Conflict of Interest?

Acting under the assumption that taxation without representation is wrong, isn’t representation without taxation wrong as well?

No doubt!!

What's happened to our tradition of (only) the most-productive being entitled to Vote??!!!

 

[uscitizen]

I guess govt employees should not be allowed to vote either?

Government employees average pay and benefits should meet that of the average of total U.S. citizens.

And what does that have to do with the conflict premise in the OP?
Evading there?

 

[Jackson]

Welfare recipients are citizens regardless of WHERE their income comes from. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to prohibit Rich CEO's with attrocious bonuses the right to vote. Or athletes with multimillion dollar contracts without a brain in their head. Sorry sport fans.

Perhaps their should be intelligence testing going on to determine who should vote and who should not. I'd go for that.

 

[shintao]

What a great idea!

Mebbe we can bring back poll taxes while we're at it?

*Sarcastic tone*

Qute response but no analysis? No debate? Nothing I said up there seems wrong to you? Other than the obvious fact that you disagree with me? You can use sarcasm all you want and I cerainly did not advocate for poll taxes but you have contributed nothing to this thread or why you oppose my position.

I would oppose such an idea to deny anyone a vote for any reason. I do question this bold statement, because I don't think you have anyway of proving it.

"I know there will be some of you who claim that we all pay sales and numerous other taxes, however, I find this dishonest as the majority of people who pay no taxes at all receive more back in the form of a tax rebate/tax credits than they pay in sales taxes and others."

 

[Mr. Peepers]

"I know there will be some of you who claim that we all pay sales and numerous other taxes, however, I find this dishonest as the majority of people who pay no taxes at all receive more back in the form of a tax rebate/tax credits than they pay in sales taxes and others."

That is bullshit. Please provide proof, like the chart that I included with my post. Most people pay more in payroll taxes than they do in income taxes.

"Most people's tax burden has a very different composition. As David Leonhardt points out in a typically excellent column today, "about three-quarters of all American households pay more in payroll taxes, which go toward Medicare and Social Security, than in income taxes." And that doesn't even mention state and local income taxes."
Ezra Klein - Do the poor really pay no taxes?

 

[High_Gravity]

People on welfare shouldn't be allowed to breathe.