Should We Arm Our Teachers?

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Hey I have an idea, let's have police officers go to school and teach English.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I think he's trying to say there is no such power, and that the feds are merely bowing to the tenth amendment. But not sure why he thinks showing us state power to restrict the second amendment is embarrassing us.

Not really.
Under federal law, if you do not have a permit, you commit a federal crime - a felony - by knowingly carrying a gun into a school - any school. public or private.

The federal government has no power to enact such a law, which is why I said I opposed the law as a violation of the 10th amendment; he maintains that the federal government does indeed have that power.

 

[rdean]

You'd lose that argument based on the fact that the federal government at least partly funds local schools and have been ceded partial control by the states

That doesn't give the federal government the power to prohibit possess of firearms in ALL schools regardless of funding.

The federal government has leverage to get the states/schools to create this prohibition themselves, as a condition to get federal money, like the strings it attached to money for rads (55mph speed limit, drinking age), but that's not the power to create that prohibition directly thru federal law. In fact, nothing in the constitution gives the federal government the power to do anything regarding education, least of all to make it a federal crime to knowingly carry a gun into one.
And that's why its a 10th amendment issue.

Again, states have CEDED , at least partly, education to the federal government
The states have in effect granted the right to make rules concerning education to the government

I must have missed that amendment to the constitution. Which one?
And, what about private schools that receive no federal or state money?

YOU have no standing to claim a 10th amendment violation (you personally I mean, as a citizen of a state, of course you have the right to petition your state to sue)

Irrelevant to my argument.

Guns in schools is NOT a 10th Amendment issue, and no case would even survive summary judgement.

Your opinion, nothing more.

LOL you know prior to this thread, I really hadn't considered this issue. Wasn't too worried about it, but since this thread i've bee doing some reading, you dorks should REALLY educate yourself before bitching about a law. Especially when I'm here to make you look stupid every time you don't.

Found this

B. License to Carry

Another exception to the school zone provision of the U.S. Code is if the person possessing the firearm is Licensed by the state in which the school zone is located.

However this applies as long as the laws related to licensing require that, before an individual obtains such a License, the law enforcement authorities of the state verify that the person is qualified under law to receive the license (i.e., “proper person,” “good character and reputation,” and “proper reason”) and the general prohibition rule does not apply to possession of a firearm.

As a word of caution, some states that issue permits and have reciprocity agreements do not recognize a CCP as valid for carry on a school premises, with limitations. If that is the case, You are committing a criminal act, even though Congress has allowed states to make this exception.

Also, “schools” may be more broadly or defined differently under state law, with differing penal scope and regulation.
Gun Laws By State

well lookie there, all yalls whining and wailing and gnashing of teeth, and it turns out that if you have a concealed carry permit that has been approved by a LEO in your state you are cleared to concealed carry on school property under federal law (state laws may vary)

Funny how none of this addresses the issue I raised, the question of where the federal government draws the power to ban guns in both public and private schools across all 50 states.

So you are saying you want everyone in schools armed?

Ah, Republicans and the difference between what education is and what they imagine it to be. No wonder Red State governors go to Blue states looking for educated workers.

 

[RKMBrown]

Again, states have CEDED , at least partly, education to the federal government
The states have in effect granted the right to make rules concerning education to the government

I must have missed that amendment to the constitution. Which one?
And, what about private schools that receive no federal or state money?

YOU have no standing to claim a 10th amendment violation (you personally I mean, as a citizen of a state, of course you have the right to petition your state to sue)

Irrelevant to my argument.

Guns in schools is NOT a 10th Amendment issue, and no case would even survive summary judgement.

Your opinion, nothing more.

LOL you know prior to this thread, I really hadn't considered this issue. Wasn't too worried about it, but since this thread i've bee doing some reading, you dorks should REALLY educate yourself before bitching about a law. Especially when I'm here to make you look stupid every time you don't.

Found this

B. License to Carry

Another exception to the school zone provision of the U.S. Code is if the person possessing the firearm is Licensed by the state in which the school zone is located.

However this applies as long as the laws related to licensing require that, before an individual obtains such a License, the law enforcement authorities of the state verify that the person is qualified under law to receive the license (i.e., “proper person,” “good character and reputation,” and “proper reason”) and the general prohibition rule does not apply to possession of a firearm.

As a word of caution, some states that issue permits and have reciprocity agreements do not recognize a CCP as valid for carry on a school premises, with limitations. If that is the case, You are committing a criminal act, even though Congress has allowed states to make this exception.

Also, “schools” may be more broadly or defined differently under state law, with differing penal scope and regulation.
Gun Laws By State

well lookie there, all yalls whining and wailing and gnashing of teeth, and it turns out that if you have a concealed carry permit that has been approved by a LEO in your state you are cleared to concealed carry on school property under federal law (state laws may vary)

Funny how none of this addresses the issue I raised, the question of where the federal government draws the power to ban guns in both public and private schools across all 50 states.

I think he's trying to say there is no such power, and that the feds are merely bowing to the tenth amendment. But not sure why he thinks showing us state power to restrict the second amendment is embarrassing us.

You should be embarrassed that you are bitching that the federal government won't let you carry on school property if you have a concealed carry permit, when in fact the law says that you can if you're state allows it.

Uhmmm we were all talking about "gun free" zones. WTF are you talking about?

 

[RKMBrown]

I think he's trying to say there is no such power, and that the feds are merely bowing to the tenth amendment. But not sure why he thinks showing us state power to restrict the second amendment is embarrassing us.

Not really.
Under federal law, if you do not have a permit, you commit a federal crime - a felony - by knowingly carrying a gun into a school - any school. public or private.

The federal government has no power to enact such a law, which is why I said I opposed the law as a violation of the 10th amendment; he maintains that the federal government does indeed have that power.

The way I read the above federal text was that if the state requires a permit you have to have the permit. Not that there is some federal permit, or that the states can't just say hey everyone is permitted if they are not a convicted felon, for example.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

I think he's trying to say there is no such power, and that the feds are merely bowing to the tenth amendment. But not sure why he thinks showing us state power to restrict the second amendment is embarrassing us.

Not really.
Under federal law, if you do not have a permit, you commit a federal crime - a felony - by knowingly carrying a gun into a school - any school. public or private.

The federal government has no power to enact such a law, which is why I said I opposed the law as a violation of the 10th amendment; he maintains that the federal government does indeed have that power.

The way I read the above federal text was that if the state requires a permit you have to have the permit. Not that there is some federal permit, or that the states can't just say hey everyone is permitted if they are not a convicted felon, for example.

You have to have a permit, and it can't be a shall issue permit, it has to be one that has been individually approved by law enforcement.

 

[RKMBrown]

Hey I have an idea, let's have police officers go to school and teach English.

There was this detective who side lined as a college professor at my school... he made sure everyone knew his gun was legal so we wouldn't get nervous.

 

[RKMBrown]

I think he's trying to say there is no such power, and that the feds are merely bowing to the tenth amendment. But not sure why he thinks showing us state power to restrict the second amendment is embarrassing us.

Not really.
Under federal law, if you do not have a permit, you commit a federal crime - a felony - by knowingly carrying a gun into a school - any school. public or private.

The federal government has no power to enact such a law, which is why I said I opposed the law as a violation of the 10th amendment; he maintains that the federal government does indeed have that power.

The way I read the above federal text was that if the state requires a permit you have to have the permit. Not that there is some federal permit, or that the states can't just say hey everyone is permitted if they are not a convicted felon, for example.

You have to have a permit, and it can't be a shall issue permit, it has to be one that has been individually approved by law enforcement.

Yeah well all cc's are approved by law enforcement here in TX.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

I think he's trying to say there is no such power, and that the feds are merely bowing to the tenth amendment. But not sure why he thinks showing us state power to restrict the second amendment is embarrassing us.

Not really.
Under federal law, if you do not have a permit, you commit a federal crime - a felony - by knowingly carrying a gun into a school - any school. public or private.

The federal government has no power to enact such a law, which is why I said I opposed the law as a violation of the 10th amendment; he maintains that the federal government does indeed have that power.

The way I read the above federal text was that if the state requires a permit you have to have the permit. Not that there is some federal permit, or that the states can't just say hey everyone is permitted if they are not a convicted felon, for example.

You have to have a permit, and it can't be a shall issue permit, it has to be one that has been individually approved by law enforcement.

Yeah well all cc's are approved by law enforcement here in TX.

correct, which means that unless your state says no, the feds are okay with you concealed carrying on school property.

in fact , Texas law SPECIFICALLY allows for concealed carry on school property and in fact has a sub section devoted to such

https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/internetforms/Forms/CHL-16.pdf

 

[RKMBrown]

I think he's trying to say there is no such power, and that the feds are merely bowing to the tenth amendment. But not sure why he thinks showing us state power to restrict the second amendment is embarrassing us.

Not really.
Under federal law, if you do not have a permit, you commit a federal crime - a felony - by knowingly carrying a gun into a school - any school. public or private.

The federal government has no power to enact such a law, which is why I said I opposed the law as a violation of the 10th amendment; he maintains that the federal government does indeed have that power.

The way I read the above federal text was that if the state requires a permit you have to have the permit. Not that there is some federal permit, or that the states can't just say hey everyone is permitted if they are not a convicted felon, for example.

You have to have a permit, and it can't be a shall issue permit, it has to be one that has been individually approved by law enforcement.

Yeah well all cc's are approved by law enforcement here in TX.

correct, which means that unless your state says no, the feds are okay with you concealed carrying on school property.

in fact , Texas law SPECIFICALLY allows for concealed carry on school property and in fact has a sub section devoted to such

https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/internetforms/Forms/CHL-16.pdf

Eggzactly. Thus the discussion was not about TX.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Not really.
Under federal law, if you do not have a permit, you commit a federal crime - a felony - by knowingly carrying a gun into a school - any school. public or private.

The federal government has no power to enact such a law, which is why I said I opposed the law as a violation of the 10th amendment; he maintains that the federal government does indeed have that power.

The way I read the above federal text was that if the state requires a permit you have to have the permit. Not that there is some federal permit, or that the states can't just say hey everyone is permitted if they are not a convicted felon, for example.

You have to have a permit, and it can't be a shall issue permit, it has to be one that has been individually approved by law enforcement.

Yeah well all cc's are approved by law enforcement here in TX.

correct, which means that unless your state says no, the feds are okay with you concealed carrying on school property.

in fact , Texas law SPECIFICALLY allows for concealed carry on school property and in fact has a sub section devoted to such

https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/internetforms/Forms/CHL-16.pdf

Eggzactly. Thus the discussion was not about TX.

No, the conversation was about the federal law which you didn't understand

 

[RKMBrown]

The way I read the above federal text was that if the state requires a permit you have to have the permit. Not that there is some federal permit, or that the states can't just say hey everyone is permitted if they are not a convicted felon, for example.

You have to have a permit, and it can't be a shall issue permit, it has to be one that has been individually approved by law enforcement.

Yeah well all cc's are approved by law enforcement here in TX.

correct, which means that unless your state says no, the feds are okay with you concealed carrying on school property.

in fact , Texas law SPECIFICALLY allows for concealed carry on school property and in fact has a sub section devoted to such

https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/internetforms/Forms/CHL-16.pdf

Eggzactly. Thus the discussion was not about TX.

No, the conversation was about the federal law which you didn't understand

When did the OP change? I must have missed the memo.

 

[airplanemechanic]

Yes.

 

[airplanemechanic]

Which sign would you rather see on your childs school door?

 

[M14 Shooter]

So you are saying you want everyone in schools armed?

As I said:
1: Lie
2: GOTO 1
Thank you for proving my point.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Yes.

I'll bet you $10K that that teacher is a member of the Israeli Army

 

[westwall]

And while I agree that it is unlikely for any given child to be the victim of a school shooting, it is almost certain that another school shooting will take place where a child WILL be a victim -- and so, the chance of any given child being a victim is an invalid standard as well.

It would be an invalid standard if I were saying "hey it's unlikely, so no precautions should be taken" , but that is NOT what I have said.
What I HAVE said is that we should not take "precautions" which put a child at a greater risk of being shot than the very situation we are trying to prevent.

And that's the question: can it be demonstrated that allowing teachers w/a CCW to carry while in school puts kids at a greater risk than they face from school shootings?

We already have one accident with a teacher and at least five accidental discharges by police officers at schools in the last three years or so. But since we have not yet begun to insert a lot of loaded and unsecured weapons into schools it hasn't been tested. Do you think using children as guinea pigs is a good idea? If a kid gets shot because his teacher left her gun in her purse and he thought it was a toy, do we say "ah well, it was worth a try" or "it was in a good cause"?

But we have tested no guns for teachers...and gun free zones...and when a killer starts shooting up a school, a lot more people have been killed than have accidentally fired weapons in schools.....

We've also tested not hanging vials of acid from the ceilings of elementary schools that can be dropped on intruders and that hasn't stopped it either. That doesn't mean it isn't a stupid idea. So again, the idea is to introduce weapons into schools and just see what happens. Because we know from experience outside of schools that CC folks never make mistakes. So no need to even consider doing a true study because, hey, what could go wrong?

I do carry and have for years. I'm as pro-gun as you're going to find. But this is a stupid idea. It's like pouring gasoline on your lawn to stop the gophers from killing the grass.

No, the idea is to introduce weapons into schools in the hands of school officials. We well know what happens when guns are only in the hands of bad guys. Of that there is no doubt.

 

[westwall]

That doesn't give the federal government the power to prohibit possess of firearms in ALL schools regardless of funding.

The federal government has leverage to get the states/schools to create this prohibition themselves, as a condition to get federal money, like the strings it attached to money for rads (55mph speed limit, drinking age), but that's not the power to create that prohibition directly thru federal law. In fact, nothing in the constitution gives the federal government the power to do anything regarding education, least of all to make it a federal crime to knowingly carry a gun into one.
And that's why its a 10th amendment issue.

Again, states have CEDED , at least partly, education to the federal government
The states have in effect granted the right to make rules concerning education to the government

I must have missed that amendment to the constitution. Which one?
And, what about private schools that receive no federal or state money?

YOU have no standing to claim a 10th amendment violation (you personally I mean, as a citizen of a state, of course you have the right to petition your state to sue)

Irrelevant to my argument.

Guns in schools is NOT a 10th Amendment issue, and no case would even survive summary judgement.

Your opinion, nothing more.

LOL you know prior to this thread, I really hadn't considered this issue. Wasn't too worried about it, but since this thread i've bee doing some reading, you dorks should REALLY educate yourself before bitching about a law. Especially when I'm here to make you look stupid every time you don't.

Found this

B. License to Carry

Another exception to the school zone provision of the U.S. Code is if the person possessing the firearm is Licensed by the state in which the school zone is located.

However this applies as long as the laws related to licensing require that, before an individual obtains such a License, the law enforcement authorities of the state verify that the person is qualified under law to receive the license (i.e., “proper person,” “good character and reputation,” and “proper reason”) and the general prohibition rule does not apply to possession of a firearm.

As a word of caution, some states that issue permits and have reciprocity agreements do not recognize a CCP as valid for carry on a school premises, with limitations. If that is the case, You are committing a criminal act, even though Congress has allowed states to make this exception.

Also, “schools” may be more broadly or defined differently under state law, with differing penal scope and regulation.
Gun Laws By State

well lookie there, all yalls whining and wailing and gnashing of teeth, and it turns out that if you have a concealed carry permit that has been approved by a LEO in your state you are cleared to concealed carry on school property under federal law (state laws may vary)

Funny how none of this addresses the issue I raised, the question of where the federal government draws the power to ban guns in both public and private schools across all 50 states.

So you are saying you want everyone in schools armed?

Ah, Republicans and the difference between what education is and what they imagine it to be. No wonder Red State governors go to Blue states looking for educated workers.

How do you know rderp is lying? He's opening his mouth. This statement is why no one takes anything you say seriously derpy. All you have is hyperbole and lies for your arguments. And you wonder why you're a laughing stock. Address the OP in a logical manner with well thought out arguments instead of hysterical nonsense and see if that doesn't work better for you.

 

[westwall]

Yes.

I'll bet you $10K that that teacher is a member of the Israeli Army

In the Reserves, sure. Virtually every Israeli is.

 

[PratchettFan]

It would be an invalid standard if I were saying "hey it's unlikely, so no precautions should be taken" , but that is NOT what I have said.
What I HAVE said is that we should not take "precautions" which put a child at a greater risk of being shot than the very situation we are trying to prevent.

And that's the question: can it be demonstrated that allowing teachers w/a CCW to carry while in school puts kids at a greater risk than they face from school shootings?

We already have one accident with a teacher and at least five accidental discharges by police officers at schools in the last three years or so. But since we have not yet begun to insert a lot of loaded and unsecured weapons into schools it hasn't been tested. Do you think using children as guinea pigs is a good idea? If a kid gets shot because his teacher left her gun in her purse and he thought it was a toy, do we say "ah well, it was worth a try" or "it was in a good cause"?

But we have tested no guns for teachers...and gun free zones...and when a killer starts shooting up a school, a lot more people have been killed than have accidentally fired weapons in schools.....

We've also tested not hanging vials of acid from the ceilings of elementary schools that can be dropped on intruders and that hasn't stopped it either. That doesn't mean it isn't a stupid idea. So again, the idea is to introduce weapons into schools and just see what happens. Because we know from experience outside of schools that CC folks never make mistakes. So no need to even consider doing a true study because, hey, what could go wrong?

I do carry and have for years. I'm as pro-gun as you're going to find. But this is a stupid idea. It's like pouring gasoline on your lawn to stop the gophers from killing the grass.

No, the idea is to introduce weapons into schools in the hands of school officials. We well know what happens when guns are only in the hands of bad guys. Of that there is no doubt.

You think that phrase makes it any different? Amazing.

I'll tell you what. Let's drop for the time the obvious problem of the weapons just being there, because the idea that mistakes can be made is apparently not conceivable. Let's just set up a test which would more realistically portray the conditions you want these weapons employed, as opposedto a couple of hours shooting at a stationary target that isn't shooting back.

Take the school official to an outdoor range. Take the target and put it on a radio controlled car so it can move around. Put it in a field with 30 or 40 5-gallon paint buckets so it can move around the buckets. The buckets will need to be in various clusters. No eye or ear protection is allowed. Then, with the instructor screaming in the officials ear and whacking him/her with a yard stick at irregular intervals, the official pulls their weapon and shoots at the moving target. Every bucket hit is a dead child.

Instate that as the test and see how many pass.