Should We Arm Our Teachers?

[RKMBrown]

This is how it works for the right wing:

1. Take away teacher's right to bargain.

2. Take away job security.

3. Cut their salary.

4. Cut their days off.

5. Call them stupid leeches

6. Take away their health care

7. Arm them.

8. Give them your kids.

This is how it works for the left wing:

1. Take away parents right to pick a school.

2. Take away teacher's responsibility to do the job they are being paid to do.

3. Give teachers more money than they are worth.

4. Give teachers months of vacation time.

5. Call teachers brilliant even when they are stupid leeches

6. Give teachers more money for health care than the private sector gets.

7. Disarm them.

8. Then force parents to hand their kids over to them and become victims of mass murders.

 

[Dan Daly]

This is how it works for both wings....more meddling by federal government into affairs best addressed at the local level.

 

[M14 Shooter]

This is how it works for the right wing:
1. Take away teacher's right to bargain.
2. Take away job security.
3. Cut their salary.
4. Cut their days off.
5. Call them stupid leeches
6. Take away their health care
7. Arm them.
8. Give them your kids.

Here's how it works for rdean:
1: Lie
2: GOTO 1

 

[M14 Shooter]

You've conceded, school shootings are MUCH rarer than accidental discharges

Overall accidental discharge rate is the wrong standard as it encompasses all people under all circumstances.
What's the rate of accidental discharges by people with a CCW permit while carrying their gun?

A fair and valid point , and I'd be interested in seeing the data, BUT my hunch is that it higher than the school shooting rate.

And while I agree that it is unlikely for any given child to be the victim of a school shooting, it is almost certain that another school shooting will take place where a child WILL be a victim -- and so, the chance of any given child being a victim is an invalid standard as well.

It would be an invalid standard if I were saying "hey it's unlikely, so no precautions should be taken" , but that is NOT what I have said.
What I HAVE said is that we should not take "precautions" which put a child at a greater risk of being shot than the very situation we are trying to prevent.

And that's the question: can it be demonstrated that allowing teachers w/a CCW to carry while in school puts kids at a greater risk than they face from school shootings?

 

[PratchettFan]

You've conceded, school shootings are MUCH rarer than accidental discharges

Overall accidental discharge rate is the wrong standard as it encompasses all people under all circumstances.
What's the rate of accidental discharges by people with a CCW permit while carrying their gun?

A fair and valid point , and I'd be interested in seeing the data, BUT my hunch is that it higher than the school shooting rate.

And while I agree that it is unlikely for any given child to be the victim of a school shooting, it is almost certain that another school shooting will take place where a child WILL be a victim -- and so, the chance of any given child being a victim is an invalid standard as well.

It would be an invalid standard if I were saying "hey it's unlikely, so no precautions should be taken" , but that is NOT what I have said.
What I HAVE said is that we should not take "precautions" which put a child at a greater risk of being shot than the very situation we are trying to prevent.

And that's the question: can it be demonstrated that allowing teachers w/a CCW to carry while in school puts kids at a greater risk than they face from school shootings?

We already have one accident with a teacher and at least five accidental discharges by police officers at schools in the last three years or so. But since we have not yet begun to insert a lot of loaded and unsecured weapons into schools it hasn't been tested. Do you think using children as guinea pigs is a good idea? If a kid gets shot because his teacher left her gun in her purse and he thought it was a toy, do we say "ah well, it was worth a try" or "it was in a good cause"?

 

[M14 Shooter]

Overall accidental discharge rate is the wrong standard as it encompasses all people under all circumstances.
What's the rate of accidental discharges by people with a CCW permit while carrying their gun?

A fair and valid point , and I'd be interested in seeing the data, BUT my hunch is that it higher than the school shooting rate.

And while I agree that it is unlikely for any given child to be the victim of a school shooting, it is almost certain that another school shooting will take place where a child WILL be a victim -- and so, the chance of any given child being a victim is an invalid standard as well.

It would be an invalid standard if I were saying "hey it's unlikely, so no precautions should be taken" , but that is NOT what I have said.
What I HAVE said is that we should not take "precautions" which put a child at a greater risk of being shot than the very situation we are trying to prevent.

And that's the question: can it be demonstrated that allowing teachers w/a CCW to carry while in school puts kids at a greater risk than they face from school shootings?

We already have one accident with a teacher and at least five accidental discharges by police officers at schools in the last three years or so. But since we have not yet begun to insert a lot of loaded and unsecured weapons into schools it hasn't been tested. Do you think using children as guinea pigs is a good idea? If a kid gets shot because his teacher left her gun in her purse and he thought it was a toy, do we say "ah well, it was worth a try" or "it was in a good cause"?

Several million CCW holders carry "loaded and unsecured" firearms each day w/o significant incident. I do not not understand why someone would think that this would change just because these people happen to carry in a school.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

This is how it works for the right wing:
1. Take away teacher's right to bargain.
2. Take away job security.
3. Cut their salary.
4. Cut their days off.
5. Call them stupid leeches
6. Take away their health care
7. Arm them.
8. Give them your kids.

Here's how it works for rdean:
1: Lie
2: GOTO 1

Why yall don't put him on ignore and go on is beyond me. I never see his posts.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

A fair and valid point , and I'd be interested in seeing the data, BUT my hunch is that it higher than the school shooting rate.

And while I agree that it is unlikely for any given child to be the victim of a school shooting, it is almost certain that another school shooting will take place where a child WILL be a victim -- and so, the chance of any given child being a victim is an invalid standard as well.

It would be an invalid standard if I were saying "hey it's unlikely, so no precautions should be taken" , but that is NOT what I have said.
What I HAVE said is that we should not take "precautions" which put a child at a greater risk of being shot than the very situation we are trying to prevent.

And that's the question: can it be demonstrated that allowing teachers w/a CCW to carry while in school puts kids at a greater risk than they face from school shootings?

We already have one accident with a teacher and at least five accidental discharges by police officers at schools in the last three years or so. But since we have not yet begun to insert a lot of loaded and unsecured weapons into schools it hasn't been tested. Do you think using children as guinea pigs is a good idea? If a kid gets shot because his teacher left her gun in her purse and he thought it was a toy, do we say "ah well, it was worth a try" or "it was in a good cause"?

Several million CCW holders carry "loaded and unsecured" firearms each day w/o significant incident. I do not not understand why someone would think that this would change just because these people happen to carry in a school.

Truthfully?

Because most teachers are the people who went to college and couldn't cut it in a REAL degree, they are the lowest of our college educated. The MAIN requirement to earn a teaching degree is the ability to sit still for 4 years.That's a fact.

PLUS they aren't exactly responsible adults, should we discuss how many of them can't even be trusted to you know not have sex with students?

Or would you like to discuss the ones who have ASSAULTED children physically when they've became upset?

I BARELY trust our police officers with guns, let alone teachers.

 

[RKMBrown]

And while I agree that it is unlikely for any given child to be the victim of a school shooting, it is almost certain that another school shooting will take place where a child WILL be a victim -- and so, the chance of any given child being a victim is an invalid standard as well.

It would be an invalid standard if I were saying "hey it's unlikely, so no precautions should be taken" , but that is NOT what I have said.
What I HAVE said is that we should not take "precautions" which put a child at a greater risk of being shot than the very situation we are trying to prevent.

And that's the question: can it be demonstrated that allowing teachers w/a CCW to carry while in school puts kids at a greater risk than they face from school shootings?

We already have one accident with a teacher and at least five accidental discharges by police officers at schools in the last three years or so. But since we have not yet begun to insert a lot of loaded and unsecured weapons into schools it hasn't been tested. Do you think using children as guinea pigs is a good idea? If a kid gets shot because his teacher left her gun in her purse and he thought it was a toy, do we say "ah well, it was worth a try" or "it was in a good cause"?

Several million CCW holders carry "loaded and unsecured" firearms each day w/o significant incident. I do not not understand why someone would think that this would change just because these people happen to carry in a school.

Truthfully?

Because most teachers are the people who went to college and couldn't cut it in a REAL degree, they are the lowest of our college educated. The MAIN requirement to earn a teaching degree is the ability to sit still for 4 years.That's a fact.

PLUS they aren't exactly responsible adults, should we discuss how many of them can't even be trusted to you know not have sex with students?

Or would you like to discuss the ones who have ASSAULTED children physically when they've became upset?

I BARELY trust our police officers with guns, let alone teachers.

Why do you trust people that decide to enter law enforcement as a career more than people who decide to become teachers? You do know that some cops are teachers, and some teachers cops, right?

 

[M14 Shooter]

Truthfully?
Because most teachers are the people who went to college and couldn't cut it in a REAL degree, they are the lowest of our college educated. The MAIN requirement to earn a teaching degree is the ability to sit still for 4 years.That's a fact.
PLUS they aren't exactly responsible adults, should we discuss how many of them can't even be trusted to you know not have sex with students?
Or would you like to discuss the ones who have ASSAULTED children physically when they've became upset?
I BARELY trust our police officers with guns, let alone teachers.

OK... and rather than argue the stereotype...
How would you characterize those teachers that have taken it upon themselves to go through the steps necessary to get a CCW and think seriously enough of their position, the added responsibilities inherent in carrying a gun while in that position, and the safety of their kids to make the decision to carry at a school?

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Truthfully?
Because most teachers are the people who went to college and couldn't cut it in a REAL degree, they are the lowest of our college educated. The MAIN requirement to earn a teaching degree is the ability to sit still for 4 years.That's a fact.
PLUS they aren't exactly responsible adults, should we discuss how many of them can't even be trusted to you know not have sex with students?
Or would you like to discuss the ones who have ASSAULTED children physically when they've became upset?
I BARELY trust our police officers with guns, let alone teachers.

OK... and rather than argue the stereotype...
How would you characterize those teachers that have taken it upon themselves to go to the steps necessary to get a CCW and think seriously enough of their position, the added responsibilities inherent in carrying a gun while in that position, and the safety of their kids to make the decision to carry at a school?

I may have said this before you joined the thread , but it bears repeating.

I have NO problem with a few select teachers being properly screened and trained to carry guns at a school.

My problem lies with those who wish to just entirely do away with the no gun one surrounding schools

 

[RKMBrown]

Truthfully?
Because most teachers are the people who went to college and couldn't cut it in a REAL degree, they are the lowest of our college educated. The MAIN requirement to earn a teaching degree is the ability to sit still for 4 years.That's a fact.
PLUS they aren't exactly responsible adults, should we discuss how many of them can't even be trusted to you know not have sex with students?
Or would you like to discuss the ones who have ASSAULTED children physically when they've became upset?
I BARELY trust our police officers with guns, let alone teachers.

OK... and rather than argue the stereotype...
How would you characterize those teachers that have taken it upon themselves to go to the steps necessary to get a CCW and think seriously enough of their position, the added responsibilities inherent in carrying a gun while in that position, and the safety of their kids to make the decision to carry at a school?

I may have said this before you joined the thread , but it bears repeating.

I have NO problem with a few select teachers being properly screened and trained to carry guns at a school.

My problem lies with those who wish to just entirely do away with the no gun one surrounding schools

You have to remove (entirely do away with) the no gun zone thing before licensed to carry folks can carry. Not sure what your point is.

 

[Dan Daly]

Truthfully?
Because most teachers are the people who went to college and couldn't cut it in a REAL degree, they are the lowest of our college educated. The MAIN requirement to earn a teaching degree is the ability to sit still for 4 years.That's a fact.
PLUS they aren't exactly responsible adults, should we discuss how many of them can't even be trusted to you know not have sex with students?
Or would you like to discuss the ones who have ASSAULTED children physically when they've became upset?
I BARELY trust our police officers with guns, let alone teachers.

OK... and rather than argue the stereotype...
How would you characterize those teachers that have taken it upon themselves to go to the steps necessary to get a CCW and think seriously enough of their position, the added responsibilities inherent in carrying a gun while in that position, and the safety of their kids to make the decision to carry at a school?

I may have said this before you joined the thread , but it bears repeating.

I have NO problem with a few select teachers being properly screened and trained to carry guns at a school.

My problem lies with those who wish to just entirely do away with the no gun one surrounding schools

Gun Free Zones = Defenseless Victim Zones.

Teachers are people...and becoming proficient in the use of firearms for self defense isn't rocket surgery....all it takes is a commitment to train.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Truthfully?
Because most teachers are the people who went to college and couldn't cut it in a REAL degree, they are the lowest of our college educated. The MAIN requirement to earn a teaching degree is the ability to sit still for 4 years.That's a fact.
PLUS they aren't exactly responsible adults, should we discuss how many of them can't even be trusted to you know not have sex with students?
Or would you like to discuss the ones who have ASSAULTED children physically when they've became upset?
I BARELY trust our police officers with guns, let alone teachers.

OK... and rather than argue the stereotype...
How would you characterize those teachers that have taken it upon themselves to go to the steps necessary to get a CCW and think seriously enough of their position, the added responsibilities inherent in carrying a gun while in that position, and the safety of their kids to make the decision to carry at a school?

I may have said this before you joined the thread , but it bears repeating.
I have NO problem with a few select teachers being properly screened and trained to carry guns at a school.
My problem lies with those who wish to just entirely do away with the no gun one surrounding schools

I don't recall anyone suggesting that teachers should be allowed to carry by removing the plenary restriction against guns in schools.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Truthfully?
Because most teachers are the people who went to college and couldn't cut it in a REAL degree, they are the lowest of our college educated. The MAIN requirement to earn a teaching degree is the ability to sit still for 4 years.That's a fact.
PLUS they aren't exactly responsible adults, should we discuss how many of them can't even be trusted to you know not have sex with students?
Or would you like to discuss the ones who have ASSAULTED children physically when they've became upset?
I BARELY trust our police officers with guns, let alone teachers.

OK... and rather than argue the stereotype...
How would you characterize those teachers that have taken it upon themselves to go to the steps necessary to get a CCW and think seriously enough of their position, the added responsibilities inherent in carrying a gun while in that position, and the safety of their kids to make the decision to carry at a school?

I may have said this before you joined the thread , but it bears repeating.

I have NO problem with a few select teachers being properly screened and trained to carry guns at a school.

My problem lies with those who wish to just entirely do away with the no gun one surrounding schools

You have to remove the no gun zone thing before licensed to carry folks can carry. Not sure what your point is.

of course you do not . Don't you ever get tired of me educating you?

Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The Gun-Free School Zones Act (GFSZA) is a federal United States law that prohibits any unauthorized individual from knowingly possessing a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(25).

the law allows states to authorize whom they may.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Truthfully?
Because most teachers are the people who went to college and couldn't cut it in a REAL degree, they are the lowest of our college educated. The MAIN requirement to earn a teaching degree is the ability to sit still for 4 years.That's a fact.
PLUS they aren't exactly responsible adults, should we discuss how many of them can't even be trusted to you know not have sex with students?
Or would you like to discuss the ones who have ASSAULTED children physically when they've became upset?
I BARELY trust our police officers with guns, let alone teachers.

OK... and rather than argue the stereotype...
How would you characterize those teachers that have taken it upon themselves to go to the steps necessary to get a CCW and think seriously enough of their position, the added responsibilities inherent in carrying a gun while in that position, and the safety of their kids to make the decision to carry at a school?

I may have said this before you joined the thread , but it bears repeating.
I have NO problem with a few select teachers being properly screened and trained to carry guns at a school.
My problem lies with those who wish to just entirely do away with the no gun one surrounding schools

I don't recall anyone suggesting that teachers should be allowed to carry by removing the plenary restriction against guns in schools.

Should We Arm Our Teachers Page 16 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

 

[Nosmo King]

Truthfully?
Because most teachers are the people who went to college and couldn't cut it in a REAL degree, they are the lowest of our college educated. The MAIN requirement to earn a teaching degree is the ability to sit still for 4 years.That's a fact.
PLUS they aren't exactly responsible adults, should we discuss how many of them can't even be trusted to you know not have sex with students?
Or would you like to discuss the ones who have ASSAULTED children physically when they've became upset?
I BARELY trust our police officers with guns, let alone teachers.

OK... and rather than argue the stereotype...
How would you characterize those teachers that have taken it upon themselves to go to the steps necessary to get a CCW and think seriously enough of their position, the added responsibilities inherent in carrying a gun while in that position, and the safety of their kids to make the decision to carry at a school?

I may have said this before you joined the thread , but it bears repeating.

I have NO problem with a few select teachers being properly screened and trained to carry guns at a school.

My problem lies with those who wish to just entirely do away with the no gun one surrounding schools

Gun Free Zones = Defenseless Victim Zones.

Teachers are people...and becoming proficient in the use of firearms for self defense isn't rocket surgery....all it takes is a commitment to train.

March 1981 four men are grievously wounded on a street in Washington D.C. in broad daylight. One of them was armed, one was a D,C, cop and one was the President of the United States. They were all surrounded by the best armed, best trained cadre of security personnel in history.

And you expect Mrs. Matthews to be more effective in a gun crisis than the United States Secret Service because she took a weekend course at the local gun range.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Truthfully?
Because most teachers are the people who went to college and couldn't cut it in a REAL degree, they are the lowest of our college educated. The MAIN requirement to earn a teaching degree is the ability to sit still for 4 years.That's a fact.
PLUS they aren't exactly responsible adults, should we discuss how many of them can't even be trusted to you know not have sex with students?
Or would you like to discuss the ones who have ASSAULTED children physically when they've became upset?
I BARELY trust our police officers with guns, let alone teachers.

OK... and rather than argue the stereotype...
How would you characterize those teachers that have taken it upon themselves to go to the steps necessary to get a CCW and think seriously enough of their position, the added responsibilities inherent in carrying a gun while in that position, and the safety of their kids to make the decision to carry at a school?

I may have said this before you joined the thread , but it bears repeating.
I have NO problem with a few select teachers being properly screened and trained to carry guns at a school.
My problem lies with those who wish to just entirely do away with the no gun one surrounding schools

I don't recall anyone suggesting that teachers should be allowed to carry by removing the plenary restriction against guns in schools.

Should We Arm Our Teachers Page 16 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

I didn't realize RKM penned legislation. for the 50 states.

Technically, at the state level, as allowed buy federal law, you have to do away with the plenary prohibition and replace it with a conditional prohibition. Nothing necessitates removing EVERY sort of prohibion.

I would, of course, dispute the federal prohibition on 10th amendment grounds, but that's another story.

 

[RKMBrown]

Truthfully?
Because most teachers are the people who went to college and couldn't cut it in a REAL degree, they are the lowest of our college educated. The MAIN requirement to earn a teaching degree is the ability to sit still for 4 years.That's a fact.
PLUS they aren't exactly responsible adults, should we discuss how many of them can't even be trusted to you know not have sex with students?
Or would you like to discuss the ones who have ASSAULTED children physically when they've became upset?
I BARELY trust our police officers with guns, let alone teachers.

OK... and rather than argue the stereotype...
How would you characterize those teachers that have taken it upon themselves to go to the steps necessary to get a CCW and think seriously enough of their position, the added responsibilities inherent in carrying a gun while in that position, and the safety of their kids to make the decision to carry at a school?

I may have said this before you joined the thread , but it bears repeating.

I have NO problem with a few select teachers being properly screened and trained to carry guns at a school.

My problem lies with those who wish to just entirely do away with the no gun one surrounding schools

You have to remove the no gun zone thing before licensed to carry folks can carry. Not sure what your point is.

of course you do not . Don't you ever get tired of me educating you?

Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The Gun-Free School Zones Act (GFSZA) is a federal United States law that prohibits any unauthorized individual from knowingly possessing a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(25).

the law allows states to authorize whom they may.

Please show me where the 2nd amendment says shall not be restricted if authorized. But thanks for the link specifying that the states may authorize everyone and anyone if they so choose.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Truthfully?
Because most teachers are the people who went to college and couldn't cut it in a REAL degree, they are the lowest of our college educated. The MAIN requirement to earn a teaching degree is the ability to sit still for 4 years.That's a fact.
PLUS they aren't exactly responsible adults, should we discuss how many of them can't even be trusted to you know not have sex with students?
Or would you like to discuss the ones who have ASSAULTED children physically when they've became upset?
I BARELY trust our police officers with guns, let alone teachers.

OK... and rather than argue the stereotype...
How would you characterize those teachers that have taken it upon themselves to go to the steps necessary to get a CCW and think seriously enough of their position, the added responsibilities inherent in carrying a gun while in that position, and the safety of their kids to make the decision to carry at a school?

I may have said this before you joined the thread , but it bears repeating.

I have NO problem with a few select teachers being properly screened and trained to carry guns at a school.

My problem lies with those who wish to just entirely do away with the no gun one surrounding schools

You have to remove the no gun zone thing before licensed to carry folks can carry. Not sure what your point is.

of course you do not . Don't you ever get tired of me educating you?

Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The Gun-Free School Zones Act (GFSZA) is a federal United States law that prohibits any unauthorized individual from knowingly possessing a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(25).

the law allows states to authorize whom they may.

Please show me where the 2nd amendment says shall not be restricted if authorized. But thanks for the link specifying that the states may authorize everyone and anyone if they so choose.

Of course states may authorize anyone and everyone if they choose. No state is that stupid though.

As for the second amendment , please show me where in the first amendment it says that the government may ban yelling bomb in an airport.