Should the US defend Taiwan from China?

[JoeB131]

Simple yes or no.

I say yes, we should defend nearly any freedom loving allied nation from them

No.

1) Taiwan isn't recognized as a "Nation" under our policies. We recognize it as a province of China under the "One China" policy.

2) as a practical matter, China is fine with Taiwan as it is, as long as they don't get out of line. Taiwan provides investment for China, China provides cheap labor for Taiwan.

3) The issue for China is one of territorial sovereignty. Before foreigners started intervening in China, China looked like this.

After a century of interventions, drug peddling, and supporting warlords, China looked like THIS

yes, territorial integrity is a big deal for China, and not a line we want to cross.

 

[Gabe Lackmann]

Thats a damn commie lie

North Korea invaded the South

But we still butted our big fucking nose 8000 miles away in though, didn't we?

 

[Gabe Lackmann]

The US is the #2 manufacturing nation in the world.

But we can't manage to produce a fuckin microchip, or vital medical machines to support our economy.

We no longer produce the things we NEED. We produce the raw materials that make the things we need.

We are at a huge disadvantage.

 

[JohnDB]

But we can't manage to produce a fuckin microchip, or vital medical machines to support our economy.

We no longer produce the things we NEED. We produce the raw materials that make the things we need.

We are at a huge disadvantage.

Not really...
We have a huge technological advantage over PRC. The "grunt" work is done in PRC...which includes the mining and refining of silicon. (Which is a highly toxic and dirty process)
Taiwan has money and a highly skilled workforce when it comes time for making silicone wafers and semiconductors and other electronics that PRC doesn't have.

PRC has debts and a junk bond problem based on unreasonable real estate values.

Taiwan also has significant assets because of investments made by the whole world. Including the machines that manufacture computer chips...which only come from America. We refuse to sell the equipment (that PRC can't reproduce) to the PRC but Taiwan has these pieces of equipment.
(Also LCD technology and other tech)

PRC is wanting to nationalize and control the computer chip market completely... basically stealing technology and equipment from multi-national corporations and subjugate the entire market... destroying these corporations...like Sony, Panasonic, LG, Micron, Nvidia, and Texas Instruments. Even Microsoft and Amazon will be crippled because of this.

That's their goal...that's what will happen.
Most of our (and the world) economy will be destroyed because of this... everything from automobiles to military aircraft and telecommunications will be subject to PRC's control of the computer chip market.

Basically it's stealing, subjugation, and extortion of the entire world. The Netherlands (if I remember correctly) are the only other place that can do the silicon wafers from silicon they mine. And what they make is small potatoes by comparison of the whole market.
There are memory chip makers here in America; Micron and Western Digital and Texas Instruments and Microsoft (Intel) all have factories here. Nvidia mostly just licenses customized chips they design without actually making them.
There's several chipmakers in CA but again: small potatoes.

PRC taking Taiwan is basically stealing and then holding the world hostage. We, the whole world, can't let it happen.

 

[Gabe Lackmann]

Not really...
We have a huge technological advantage over PRC. The "grunt" work is done in PRC...which includes the mining and refining of silicon. (Which is a highly toxic and dirty process)
Taiwan has money and a highly skilled workforce when it comes time for making silicone wafers and semiconductors and other electronics that PRC doesn't have.

PRC has debts and a junk bond problem based on unreasonable real estate values.

Taiwan also has significant assets because of investments made by the whole world. Including the machines that manufacture computer chips...which only come from America. We refuse to sell the equipment (that PRC can't reproduce) to the PRC but Taiwan has these pieces of equipment.
(Also LCD technology and other tech)

PRC is wanting to nationalize and control the computer chip market completely... basically stealing technology and equipment from multi-national corporations and subjugate the entire market... destroying these corporations...like Sony, Panasonic, LG, Micron, Nvidia, and Texas Instruments. Even Microsoft and Amazon will be crippled because of this.

That's their goal...that's what will happen.
Most of our (and the world) economy will be destroyed because of this... everything from automobiles to military aircraft and telecommunications will be subject to PRC's control of the computer chip market.

Basically it's stealing, subjugation, and extortion of the entire world. The Netherlands (if I remember correctly) are the only other place that can do the silicon wafers from silicon they mine. And what they make is small potatoes by comparison of the whole market.
There are memory chip makers here in America; Micron and Western Digital and Texas Instruments and Microsoft (Intel) all have factories here. Nvidia mostly just licenses customized chips they design without actually making them.
There's several chipmakers in CA but again: small potatoes.

PRC taking Taiwan is basically stealing and then holding the world hostage. We, the whole world, can't let it happen.

If you do not produce the end items the YOU are at a huge disadvantage. Any way you turn it.

If our chip manufacturers are so diverse and capable then why is there a global chip shortage?

Why can we not produce the medical equipment we need?

Why can we not produce the insulin we need?

No, we have allowed ourselves to become slaves to a very finely tune global supply system that does not benefit Americans.

 

[Circe]

No. Taiwan is like Cuba, lying very close to China within its sphere of interest. We'd be crazy to go to war for Taiwan, and we'd lose. Which means good-bye Chicago ---- and LA, New York, Boston, Baltimore, Houston, etc., etc.

Let's don't.

 

[Circe]

If not who will we defend cause it wont stop there...Philippines? Japan? Australia? South Korea?

Let them defend themselves. We didn't used to get involved in world wars until attacked (both WWI and WWII). That was right.

 

[Circe]

But we still butted our big fucking nose 8000 miles away in though, didn't we?

Yes, and we lost.

Same with Vietnam.

Like the song says, "When will we ever learn/When will we ... ever learn."

 

[JohnDB]

If you do not produce the end items the YOU are at a huge disadvantage. Any way you turn it.

If our chip manufacturers are so diverse and capable then why is there a global chip shortage?

Why can we not produce the medical equipment we need?

Why can we not produce the insulin we need?

No, we have allowed ourselves to become slaves to a very finely tune global supply system that does not benefit Americans.

It does benefit Americans...there are American manufacturing plants there. Part of your retirement portfolio owns stocks that has production facilities there. If you have anything from the S&P 500 in your portfolio (extremely common for most people) you own some of Taiwan too.

Most things these days are electronic in some fashion or produced by electronic controlled devices... even the kitchen sink.

Insulin comes from sheep...New Zealand, Australia, USA, Africa, India, and South America are your sheep producers. But the stuff needed for refining of the insulin comes from everywhere.
And at a guess China is still pissed over the star anise tree groves.
Roche, with US Government assistance, bought 80% of the star anise tree groves in PRC. What China didn't know at the time was that Tamiflu is made from a chemical unique to star anise. (It isn't made here as it is volatile chemistry and the factories have exploded around three or four times already) But PRC didn't get to control the medicine. Which completely destroyed anyone's aspirations of weaponizing influenza virus. (Getting the picture yet)

We cannot allow PRC to control and possibly bankrupt the entire semiconductor market.
We don't want any government to do it either.

And that is what is at stake.
Currently we control the equipment needed to make silicon wafers. (Because we make it) and we refuse to sell it to PRC.(by export prohibition)
Silicon wafers are cheap but highly complicated to make. We want and need them to stay that way.

 

[Mac-7]

But we still butted our big fucking nose 8000 miles away in though, didn't we?

Yes and so did 50 other nations that answered the UN call to defend south korea from invasion and the damn lie you told in your previous post

 

[Unkotare]

No. Taiwan is like Cuba, lying very close to China within its sphere of interest. We'd be crazy to go to war for Taiwan, and we'd lose. Which means good-bye Chicago ---- and LA, New York, Boston, Baltimore, Houston, etc., etc.

Let's don't.

???????????????????????????

 

[Moonglow]

Simple yes or no.

I say yes, we should defend nearly any freedom loving allied nation from them

When were you ever a soldier?

 

[Gabe Lackmann]

It does benefit Americans...there are American manufacturing plants there. Part of your retirement portfolio owns stocks that has production facilities there. If you have anything from the S&P 500 in your portfolio (extremely common for most people) you own some of Taiwan too.

Most things these days are electronic in some fashion or produced by electronic controlled devices... even the kitchen sink.

Insulin comes from sheep...New Zealand, Australia, USA, Africa, India, and South America are your sheep producers. But the stuff needed for refining of the insulin comes from everywhere.
And at a guess China is still pissed over the star anise tree groves.
Roche, with US Government assistance, bought 80% of the star anise tree groves in PRC. What China didn't know at the time was that Tamiflu is made from a chemical unique to star anise. (It isn't made here as it is volatile chemistry and the factories have exploded around three or four times already) But PRC didn't get to control the medicine. Which completely destroyed anyone's aspirations of weaponizing influenza virus. (Getting the picture yet)

We cannot allow PRC to control and possibly bankrupt the entire semiconductor market.
We don't want any government to do it either.

And that is what is at stake.
Currently we control the equipment needed to make silicon wafers. (Because we make it) and we refuse to sell it to PRC.(by export prohibition)
Silicon wafers are cheap but highly complicated to make. We want and need them to stay that way.

The latest boogeyman created by us, enabled by us, facilitated by us...but OH GOD WE CAN'T LET THEM GET THE UPPER HAND!!

Scam.

 

[JohnDB]

The latest boogeyman created by us, enabled by us, facilitated by us...but OH GOD WE CAN'T LET THEM GET THE UPPER HAND!!

Scam.

What in the world are you going on about?
So you think it's acceptable to be robbed and then held hostage?

 

[JohnDB]

I'm surprised that people want to give Japan the state of Hawaii and apologize for our rudeness for all these years eh?

That's essentially what ignoring the Taiwan/PRC situation will be similar to...

 

[Circe]

I'm surprised that people want to give Japan the state of Hawaii and apologize for our rudeness for all these years eh?

That's essentially what ignoring the Taiwan/PRC situation will be similar to...

No. Hawaii is sitting in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. Taiwan, however, is sitting close on China's shore. And we've already agreed Taiwan is part of China. WHAT, then is the PROBLEM???

I totally oppose fighting a war with China for Taiwan. China has fully five times our population. And a huge army of 3 million males because of their dearth of female children for wives. And lots of nuclear bombs. They can invade through Mexico if it comes to that, like Red Dawn showed. If we fight a war with China, we will lose. And what would we be winning? Nothing of any interest to any of us. It's just not in our national interest to fight for Taiwan's independence.

If they send over any more worldwide plagues, I might rethink that. . . .

 

[JohnDB]

No. Hawaii is sitting in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. Taiwan, however, is sitting close on China's shore. And we've already agreed Taiwan is part of China. WHAT, then is the PROBLEM???

I totally oppose fighting a war with China for Taiwan. China has fully five times our population. And a huge army of 3 million males because of their dearth of female children for wives. And lots of nuclear bombs. They can invade through Mexico if it comes to that, like Red Dawn showed. If we fight a war with China, we will lose. And what would we be winning? Nothing of any interest to any of us. It's just not in our national interest to fight for Taiwan's independence.

If they send over any more worldwide plagues, I might rethink that. . . .

So what about the trillions of dollars of our money there?
What about the hundreds of thousands of American citizens?
What about the extortion they will have the power to exert over the entire world?
What about the instant enslavement of millions of people?

Does any of this matter?

 

[Circe]

So what about the trillions of dollars of our money there?
What about the hundreds of thousands of American citizens?
What about the extortion they will have the power to exert over the entire world?
What about the instant enslavement of millions of people?

Does any of this matter?

We don't have hundreds of thousands of American citizens in Taiwan!!!!! OR China the mainland. If we do, they aren't really Americans at all. That was disgusting, all that talk about Afghans who were supposedly "American citizens" but were born in Afghanistan, living there now, not planning to leave -------- I call those Afghans. Same with China OR Formosa.

As for trillions of dollars, we throw that away on every little pissant territory anywhere, every year, apparently. Not of interest.

Extortion? From whom? You are not being clear here: China extorting something, or Taiwan?

Instant enslavement of millions? That's the norm. Happened a couple weeks or months ago in Hong Kong, and you weren't carrying on about going to war with a nation five times our size for them. I am not interested in that issue: I am interested in the fact that Taiwan is to China as Cuba is to the USA, and nobody better be messing with Cuba, as I do recall Kennedy making real, real plain. (And I cried all that night, too ---- personally, I'd rather avoid nuclear war. You may think it will be fun, but I bet you change your mind if it happens.)

 

[Circe]

Let's make two lists

Nations China has attacked since 1956 (CCP came to power)


Nations the US has attacked since 1956

Ouch. You do have a point -----

 

[Circe]

Yes and so did 50 other nations that answered the UN call to defend south korea from invasion and the damn lie you told in your previous post

50 nations, nothing! It was us. It was real, real cold in Inchon, I hear, and the whole thing was on us, and the Chinese poured across the border and we LOST.

Let's don't do that again.