Should McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Clemens, etc. be in the HOF?

[Fort Fun Indiana]

What really annoys me about these snubs is that the players are almost all still using PEDs.

But everyone wants to pretend we ended the cheating and got rid of the cheaters, so now the game is "pure". Like the 30 year old career catcher suddenly finding his 48 HR/yr power stroke.

Horseshit.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Making a mockery of other legends records is what the issue is. It was a staple of men aging to talk who was the best and the records from all eras. That is over. Alcohol, greenies and the like are nothing compared to steroids. But the Home Run contests were fun.

Like who? Maris? Wat makes you think Maris was not using steroids? Hair loss, acne, etc. His stat patterns track with modern steroids users, too.

 

[Couchpotato]

"...proven or suspected..."???

I think MLB has to adopt the same standard as U.S. criminal law: innocent until proven guilty. All three should immediately be ushered into the HOF. Bonds especially...he had HOF credentials before he started hitting all those home runs.

Didn’t they all admit to using? Admission of guilt is typically accepted as proof of guilt.

 

[Cougarbear]

Rose had his chance and he was too stubborn and bull headed to take it.
You bet on your own team while you were manager. Admit it and just make nice.
Then, you're back in the club. Pete is his own worst enemy.

That may be true. So, don't put him in the Hall of Fame as a coach. But, he most certainly belongs as a player. Are Hall of Famers only there for their moral behaviors? If so, take Ruth and a lot more out of it. They are there for how they played the game and the records based on the field play.

 

[Meister]

Yes, I'm that guy that'll open this discussion.

My thoughts:
- Yes, they either were proven or suspected cheaters.
- However, they were legendary figures in the history of baseball.

When I go to the HOF, I want the story of the league. I want to hear about the black sox scandal. If you have to mention their drug use, so be it.

However, these sanctimonious sports writers that decide their fate are the most shallow, petty, 14-year-old-high-school-valley-girl type people on planet earth.

These guys belong in the HOF.

No HOF

 

[Cougarbear]

Didn’t they all admit to using? Admission of guilt is typically accepted as proof of guilt.

No sir! Bonds has never admitted to it nor has he been proved to have used it. Others did admit to it. Even still, the league made billions of dollars off them and turned their heads away from what they saw and maybe knew. Time to judge their play no matter what. Going into the Hall of Fame isn't saying Bonds is better than Ruth. It's saying his batting average and home runs are legendary and put him in the same league as Ruth.

 

[Couchpotato]

No sir! Bonds has never admitted to it nor has he been proved to have used it. Others did admit to it. Even still, the league made billions of dollars off them and turned their heads away from what they saw and maybe knew. Time to judge their play no matter what. Going into the Hall of Fame isn't saying Bonds is better than Ruth. It's saying his batting average and home runs are legendary and put him in the same league as Ruth.

He admitted to using the cream and the clear but said he thought it was flaxseed oil and arthritic cream. That had the weird side effect of his head gaining three hat sizes and his balls shrinking…..

 

[DGS49]

Since the beginning of baseball, players were told, DON'T LIFT HEAVY WEIGHTS! It was a "known fact" that big muscles are bad for a baseball player. I think McGuire and Canseco caused ballplayers to take a second look at that bit of baseball wisdom. Maybe not.

There is nothing intrinsically harmful about anabolic steroids, and when they were first invented there was significant debate about whether they should be welcomed as a beneficial breakthrough for humanity, or made into a sort of harmful drug. So they were more or less outlawed, which GUARANTEED that they would be abused.

Anyone who has tried that strategy knows that it's not just a matter of taking the stuff and watching your muscles explode. You have to do the work, or the chemicals will have no beneficial effect.

You can have all the muscles in the world, but you still have to hit the fucking ball...or throw it in the strike zone.

The HOF is quickly becoming a farce.

 

[Couchpotato]

Since the beginning of baseball, players were told, DON'T LIFT HEAVY WEIGHTS! It was a "known fact" that big muscles are bad for a baseball player. I think McGuire and Canseco caused ballplayers to take a second look at that bit of baseball wisdom. Maybe not.

There is nothing intrinsically harmful about anabolic steroids, and when they were first invented there was significant debate about whether they should be welcomed as a beneficial breakthrough for humanity, or made into a sort of harmful drug. So they were more or less outlawed, which GUARANTEED that they would be abused.

Anyone who has tried that strategy knows that it's not just a matter of taking the stuff and watching your muscles explode. You have to do the work, or the chemicals will have no beneficial effect.

You can have all the muscles in the world, but you still have to hit the fucking ball...or throw it in the strike zone.

The HOF is quickly becoming a farce.

But steroids make recovery faster. Allow players to play longer. If they weren’t a significant advantage no one would risk using them.

 

[Cougarbear]

He admitted to using the cream and the clear but said he thought it was flaxseed oil and arthritic cream. That had the weird side effect of his head gaining three hat sizes and his balls shrinking…..

I don't remember Bonds ever saying his balls shrunk? Do you have some inside information on that?
Steroids don't make your muscles bigger. Anabolic steroids stimulate muscle tissue to grow and "bulk up" in response to training by mimicking the effect of naturally produced testosterone on the body. Anabolic steroids can remain in the body anywhere from a couple of days to about a year. They take away the soreness allowing you to work harder for a longer period of time without the hurt.

 

[Couchpotato]

I don't remember Bonds ever saying his balls shrunk? Do you have some inside information on that?
Steroids don't make your muscles bigger. Anabolic steroids stimulate muscle tissue to grow and "bulk up" in response to training by mimicking the effect of naturally produced testosterone on the body. Anabolic steroids can remain in the body anywhere from a couple of days to about a year. They take away the soreness allowing you to work harder for a longer period of time without the hurt.

Yeah I’m aware of what steroids are and do.

Anabolic Steroids and Other Appearance and Performance Enhancing Drugs (APEDs) | National Institute on Drug Abuse

Anabolic steroids are synthetic variations of the male sex hormone testosterone. The proper term for these compounds is anabolic-androgenic steroids.

nida.nih.gov

 

[Cougarbear]

Yeah I’m aware of what steroids are and do.

Anabolic Steroids and Other Appearance and Performance Enhancing Drugs (APEDs) | National Institute on Drug Abuse

Anabolic steroids are synthetic variations of the male sex hormone testosterone. The proper term for these compounds is anabolic-androgenic steroids.

nida.nih.gov

Being a couch potato I wasn't sure.
In any event, Bonds and Clements should be in the Hall of Fame.

 

[Couchpotato]

Being a couch potato I wasn't sure.
In any event, Bonds and Clements should be in the Hall of Fame.

The people doing the voting disagree

 

[Cougarbear]

The people doing the voting disagree

And, I wonder why? They had no problem making gobs of money from Bonds and the rest while they knew full well what was going on. Should we go back and remove players from the Hall of Fame that were dealing with their pains and injuries with amphetamines and other juices? Willie Mays was said to drink that red juice that some claim was drugs. You want to do that? There are plenty of others as well.

 

[Couchpotato]

And, I wonder why? They had no problem making gobs of money from Bonds and the rest while they knew full well what was going on. Should we go back and remove players from the Hall of Fame that were dealing with their pains and injuries with amphetamines and other juices? Willie Mays was said to drink that red juice that some claim was drugs. You want to do that? There are plenty of others as well.

This is just a guess but because he cheated?

 

[Cougarbear]

This is just a guess but because he cheated?

Nope. It's because they are the WOKE generation. They are trying to be taken seriously but are falling short. I'm hoping that the other body that can vote them in will.

 

[Couchpotato]

Nope. It's because they are the WOKE generation. They are trying to be taken seriously but are falling short. I'm hoping that the other body that can vote them in will.

No I’m pretty sure the cheating is the bigger issue.

 

[The_Lyrical_Miracle]

No I’m pretty sure the cheating is the bigger issue.

There's certainly not a consistent standard.

Ivan Rodriguez got into the HOF... he was on the list of players named by Jose Canseco (a list that has been proven to be accurate), and once the testing began Pudge lost 30 lbs in the snap of a hat.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Since the beginning of baseball, players were told, DON'T LIFT HEAVY WEIGHTS! It was a "known fact" that big muscles are bad for a baseball player. I think McGuire and Canseco caused ballplayers to take a second look at that bit of baseball wisdom. Maybe not.

There is nothing intrinsically harmful about anabolic steroids, and when they were first invented there was significant debate about whether they should be welcomed as a beneficial breakthrough for humanity, or made into a sort of harmful drug. So they were more or less outlawed, which GUARANTEED that they would be abused.

Anyone who has tried that strategy knows that it's not just a matter of taking the stuff and watching your muscles explode. You have to do the work, or the chemicals will have no beneficial effect.

You can have all the muscles in the world, but you still have to hit the fucking ball...or throw it in the strike zone.

The HOF is quickly becoming a farce.

It became thst decades ago when they banned rose.both MLB and the NFL have earned the honor of being called the hall of shame.

 

[Couchpotato]

There's certainly not a consistent standard.

Ivan Rodriguez got into the HOF... he was on the list of players named by Jose Canseco (a list that has been proven to be accurate), and once the testing began Pudge lost 30 lbs in the snap of a hat.

Ok.