Should hospitals be free to dump penniless emergencies.

[mattskramer]

I read so many posts saying that the government has no business in health care. There are comments that say that health care is not in the Constitution and that it is not a right. I read all sorts of similar glowing generalities and absolutes. Then I thought about EMTALA. I thought that mentioning it would be an excellent way for me to impress upon people, perhaps even those laissez-faire fanatics, that issues like this are not so black-and-white and either-or.

What is your position on the “Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act” also known as EMTALA? Let me spell it out for you as simply as I can. It is a basically a Federal law that requires hospitals and ambulance services to provide care to anyone needing emergency treatment regardless of citizenship, legal status or ability to pay.

For more detailed information on it such what makes a hospital subject to the law and when a qualifying hospital is allowed to discharge a patient, please read:
Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now, don’t you think that government has no business getting involved in health care? If a hospital knows that Joe Smith is struggling to come into the hospital and has a life threatening condition, that Joe needs immediate care, and that Joe has no insurance and no financial resources, then that hospital should be free to have security escort Joe out to the curb. The hospital can have Joe carried outside and dumped off at the curb if Joe is in too much pain to walk. Don’t you agree? Leave the free market alone to do as it pleases as long as there is no fraud involved. “If you don’t have the money to pay for your care and you can’t find charity, then die in the street.”

Wow. I think that hospitals should be free to dump poor patients having easily surgically treatable life-threatening emergencies on the street corner. Don’t you? “Awww. You just had an accident and severed your leg off – but you can’t pay for us to treat you. Go bleed on the street please. You are messing up our carpet.”

(Note my sarcasm.)

 

[Centrism'sVoice]

For a libertarian, the answer to your question is an unqualified "yes." (Says a lot about them, doesn't it?)

 

[Mr. FNB]

Fact is hospitals DONT and WONT do what your suggesting. Anyone who enters an ER in this country is treated. Even immigrants! But this is a problem now that you mention it. Clearly, the problem is worsening, which proves a lack of success on the part of government intervention and the EMTALA.

Centrism, I consider myself a libertarian, in part, and your judgement is incorrect in regards to my position on this issue.

 

[xsited1]

Should hospitals be free to dump penniless emergencies.

Yes. And whoever passed a law stating otherwise should be required to pay for their care.

 

[Centrism'sVoice]

Centrism, I consider myself a libertarian, in part, and your judgement is incorrect in regards to my position on this issue.

Which is totally consistent with you being only a "libertarian, in part."

 

[KittenKoder]

More Wicrapedia? Damn, people will type anything won't they.

 

[Gudrid]

So how about the folks who are brought in from car wrecks that burned up their wallets? No way of knowing if they have money or insurance.

 

[caela]

Healthcare is a basic human need but that doesn't meant that healthcare payed for out of the pocket of someone else is a basic right. I don't have the right to hold a gun to your head and make you pay for my daughter's operation (assuming she needed one) so why should the gov't be able to do it? It's stealing from Peter to pay Paul no matter how you slice it but for some reason when the government does it to everyone people seem to think it's o.k.

No a hospital should not be allowed to turn away those that need care (I work in surgery I'd quit instantly if I found out my hospital was doing this) but needing care doesn't negate your responsibility to pay for that care. Most hospitals are more than willing to make some sort of arrangement with patients and most have charity programs as well to help those that are truly indigent. Considering how many people simply skip out on their bills they are generally happy to be getting SOMETHING instead of nothing.

 

[anna]

misch obama, aka i hate america, was part of the dumping poor black patients, in chicago!!! she also got a hefty raise when b hussein became a senator. but let's not talk about that, let's talk about her fugly haircut!!! lol

 

[PoliticalChic]

Fact is hospitals DONT and WONT do what your suggesting. Anyone who enters an ER in this country is treated. Even immigrants! But this is a problem now that you mention it. Clearly, the problem is worsening, which proves a lack of success on the part of government intervention and the EMTALA.

Centrism, I consider myself a libertarian, in part, and your judgement is incorrect in regards to my position on this issue.

Hospitals and free clinics should continue to provide emergency care for any and all who require same.

It is beyond comprehension that any, citiizens, illegal immigrants, visitors to our country should be turned away in a time of need.

Since this question is part of the larger healthcare issue, I believe that this aspect must remain as is. There are a dozen ways to solve the questions raised by both sides, but I have yet to hear any suggest shutting down access to hospital emergency rooms.

In a story related to healthcare costs, here is the first paragraph from Samuelson's article in today's Washington Post:
"One of the bewildering ironies of the health-care debate is that President Obama claims to be attacking the status quo when he's actually embracing it. Ever since Congress created Medicare and Medicaid in 1965, health politics has followed a simple logic: Expand benefits and talk about controlling costs. That's the status quo, and Obama faithfully adheres to it. While denouncing skyrocketing health spending, he would increase it by extending government health insurance to millions more Americans."
washingtonpost.com

And since several post have gratuously added their political perspective as part of their answer, let me add that as a Conservative, I see, in this connection, all members of society as, in Edmund Burke's phrase, 'little platoons,' with responsibility to each other.

 

[Care4all]

NO, sbsolutely NOT....any emergency must be treated immediately by the hospital, with no concern or thought on whether you have insurance or can pay for it.

not to do such hurts all of our medical treatment and care....i want NO DOCTOR OR HOSPITAL to wait till my husband can get there with my insurance card when my leg has been severed!

it is also INHUMANE to require money to save ones life in an emergency! SHAME ON all of you that said YES! the supposed religious ones saying yes, is mind boggling!

 

[mattskramer]

Fact is hospitals DONT and WONT do what your suggesting. Anyone who enters an ER in this country is treated. Even immigrants! But this is a problem now that you mention it. Clearly, the problem is worsening, which proves a lack of success on the part of government intervention and the EMTALA.

Centrism, I consider myself a libertarian, in part, and your judgement is incorrect in regards to my position on this issue.

First of all, you did not answer my first question. Should hospitals be free to dump penniless emergencies?

Second of all, if hospitals don't technically dump emergency patients then they come close to it.

L.A. Hospitals Dumps Paraplegic Patient in Street Gutter

A Los Angeles hospital is being sued by a mentally ill paraplegic man who claims that he was dumped in a gutter and abandoned by hospital employees after being discharged.

Approximately 50 cases were reported in 2007 of homeless, sick or mentally confused patients being dropped off by ambulances in the 50-block area known as Skid Row, where an estimated 12,000 homeless people are believed to live and sleep.

In response to the lawsuit, Hollywood Presbyterian announced that it had conducted a thorough review of its patient discharge policies to make sure that such dumping would not occur in the future. The hospital said that it hopes to reach an out-of-court settlement.

Kaiser Faces Charges for Dumping Homeless Patient : NPR

The Los Angeles city attorney's office has filed criminal charges against hospital giant Kaiser Permanente for endangering a former patient. The charges allege Kaiser dumped a homeless patient on the city's downtown Skid Row.

Cops: Another Hospital Dumps Patient On Skid Row - cbs2.com

A man in his 70s who was wearing a hospital gown, pants and an identification bracelet was dropped off in front of the Los Angeles Mission Wednesday in what police described as another case of Skid Row "patient dumping."

"The man could barely walk, and he told me that he was still very sick and needed medical attention," said Los Angeles police Officer Deon Joseph. "What we have here is a classic case of patient dumping, where a person who can't defend or care for himself was left alone in Skid Row. It's a disgusting situation."

Now, are you going to answer my question or not?

 

[mattskramer]

NO, sbsolutely NOT....any emergency must be treated immediately by the hospital, with no concern or thought on whether you have insurance or can pay for it.

not to do such hurts all of our medical treatment and care....i want NO DOCTOR OR HOSPITAL to wait till my husband can get there with my insurance card when my leg has been severed!

it is also INHUMANE to require money to save ones life in an emergency! SHAME ON all of you that said YES! the supposed religious ones saying yes, is mind boggling!

I was surprised that there was so much hemming and hawing and ducking and dodging such a straight forward question: Should hospitals be free to dump penniless emergency patients?

 

[Soaring]

NO, sbsolutely NOT....any emergency must be treated immediately by the hospital, with no concern or thought on whether you have insurance or can pay for it.

not to do such hurts all of our medical treatment and care....i want NO DOCTOR OR HOSPITAL to wait till my husband can get there with my insurance card when my leg has been severed!

it is also INHUMANE to require money to save ones life in an emergency! SHAME ON all of you that said YES! the supposed religious ones saying yes, is mind boggling!

I was surprised that there was so much hemming and hawing and ducking and dodging such a straight forward question: Should hospitals be free to dump penniless emergency patients?

I think what is being forgotten here is that hospitals are a business. The doctors, nurses and all the diagnostic machines down to the cafeteria are all run on a profit. Without that profit, they would not exist. Even the emergency staff and the machines are costing the hospital staff a lot of money. How do you propose all of that is to be paid for? It just doesn't fall out of the heavens. Yes, we American tax payers are paying for it. Aren't you angered that the illegal aliens from Mexico are sucking off our taxpayer money for care in the emergency room, and that you must wait for hours to receive emergency care while waiting in the emergency room because of these leeches? I am.....

 

[alan1]

Fact is hospitals DONT and WONT do what your suggesting. Anyone who enters an ER in this country is treated. Even immigrants! But this is a problem now that you mention it. Clearly, the problem is worsening, which proves a lack of success on the part of government intervention and the EMTALA.

Centrism, I consider myself a libertarian, in part, and your judgement is incorrect in regards to my position on this issue.

First of all, you did not answer my first question. Should hospitals be free to dump penniless emergencies?

Second of all, if hospitals don't technically dump emergency patients then they come close to it.

L.A. Hospitals Dumps Paraplegic Patient in Street Gutter

A Los Angeles hospital is being sued by a mentally ill paraplegic man who claims that he was dumped in a gutter and abandoned by hospital employees after being discharged.

Approximately 50 cases were reported in 2007 of homeless, sick or mentally confused patients being dropped off by ambulances in the 50-block area known as Skid Row, where an estimated 12,000 homeless people are believed to live and sleep.

In response to the lawsuit, Hollywood Presbyterian announced that it had conducted a thorough review of its patient discharge policies to make sure that such dumping would not occur in the future. The hospital said that it hopes to reach an out-of-court settlement.

Kaiser Faces Charges for Dumping Homeless Patient : NPR

The Los Angeles city attorney's office has filed criminal charges against hospital giant Kaiser Permanente for endangering a former patient. The charges allege Kaiser dumped a homeless patient on the city's downtown Skid Row.

Cops: Another Hospital Dumps Patient On Skid Row - cbs2.com

A man in his 70s who was wearing a hospital gown, pants and an identification bracelet was dropped off in front of the Los Angeles Mission Wednesday in what police described as another case of Skid Row "patient dumping."

"The man could barely walk, and he told me that he was still very sick and needed medical attention," said Los Angeles police Officer Deon Joseph. "What we have here is a classic case of patient dumping, where a person who can't defend or care for himself was left alone in Skid Row. It's a disgusting situation."

Now, are you going to answer my question or not?

I notice that every one of the posted articles is about CA. Damn liberal state won't take care of their own.

 

[Nik]

More Wicrapedia? Damn, people will type anything won't they.

So if its such crap, please specify exactly what information that was posted was false.

Otherwise shut the fuck up, and avoid the constant ad hominems, eh?

 

[Mr. FNB]

defend or care for himself was left alone in Skid Row. It's a disgusting situation."

Now, are you going to answer my question or not?

Your citing 3 unusual examples out of the millions of people who visit ER's a year and get treated, with or without health insurance as points to validate your position??? Give me a break.

To answer the question, I don't think anyone in dire need should be thrown out on their ear in an emergency room setting. They should be treated and billed accordingly. If they choose not to pay the bill the hospitals reserve the right to sue.

However, I would bet apple to oranges, a large percentage of ER visits are actualy non-emergencies. In a non-life threatening setting, yes, if they can not pay for it, they should be shown the door. If they are non-citizens, they should be shown the borderline.

Many people already have social programs, charity care, even church donors, that they can turn to, and often choose not to.

Regardless, it is not the tax payers duty to pay for everyones healthcare. And the very idea of such is absurd and financially not even finacially obtainable.

 

[Mr. FNB]

NO, sbsolutely NOT....any emergency must be treated immediately by the hospital, with no concern or thought on whether you have insurance or can pay for it.

not to do such hurts all of our medical treatment and care....i want NO DOCTOR OR HOSPITAL to wait till my husband can get there with my insurance card when my leg has been severed!

it is also INHUMANE to require money to save ones life in an emergency! SHAME ON all of you that said YES! the supposed religious ones saying yes, is mind boggling!

I was surprised that there was so much hemming and hawing and ducking and dodging such a straight forward question: Should hospitals be free to dump penniless emergency patients?

I think what is being forgotten here is that hospitals are a business. The doctors, nurses and all the diagnostic machines down to the cafeteria are all run on a profit. Without that profit, they would not exist. Even the emergency staff and the machines are costing the hospital staff a lot of money. How do you propose all of that is to be paid for? It just doesn't fall out of the heavens. Yes, we American tax payers are paying for it. Aren't you angered that the illegal aliens from Mexico are sucking off our taxpayer money for care in the emergency room, and that you must wait for hours to receive emergency care while waiting in the emergency room because of these leeches? I am.....

Well said.

 

[Centrism'sVoice]

NO, sbsolutely NOT....any emergency must be treated immediately by the hospital, with no concern or thought on whether you have insurance or can pay for it.

not to do such hurts all of our medical treatment and care....i want NO DOCTOR OR HOSPITAL to wait till my husband can get there with my insurance card when my leg has been severed!

it is also INHUMANE to require money to save ones life in an emergency! SHAME ON all of you that said YES! the supposed religious ones saying yes, is mind boggling!

I was surprised that there was so much hemming and hawing and ducking and dodging such a straight forward question: Should hospitals be free to dump penniless emergency patients?

I think what is being forgotten here is that hospitals are a business. The doctors, nurses and all the diagnostic machines down to the cafeteria are all run on a profit. Without that profit, they would not exist. Even the emergency staff and the machines are costing the hospital staff a lot of money. How do you propose all of that is to be paid for? It just doesn't fall out of the heavens. Yes, we American tax payers are paying for it. Aren't you angered that the illegal aliens from Mexico are sucking off our taxpayer money for care in the emergency room, and that you must wait for hours to receive emergency care while waiting in the emergency room because of these leeches? I am.....

Well, the triage people can always ask the patients who look Latino if they're here legally, and shoot them if they can't answer yes in English. That seem fair enough for you?

 

[alan1]

I was surprised that there was so much hemming and hawing and ducking and dodging such a straight forward question: Should hospitals be free to dump penniless emergency patients?

I think what is being forgotten here is that hospitals are a business. The doctors, nurses and all the diagnostic machines down to the cafeteria are all run on a profit. Without that profit, they would not exist. Even the emergency staff and the machines are costing the hospital staff a lot of money. How do you propose all of that is to be paid for? It just doesn't fall out of the heavens. Yes, we American tax payers are paying for it. Aren't you angered that the illegal aliens from Mexico are sucking off our taxpayer money for care in the emergency room, and that you must wait for hours to receive emergency care while waiting in the emergency room because of these leeches? I am.....

Well, the triage people can always ask the patients who look Latino if they're here legally, and shoot them if they can't answer yes in English. That seem fair enough for you?

Yes, because the only other option is to shoot them.
For somebody that claims to be centrist, how come your only other alternative is an extreme?
I grow weary of people like you that only want to insinuate that other people's post's come from an extreme perspective when it is you that is the extremist.