Shock. Disbelief. Denial.

[Dr Grump]

The fact that you expect any book touched by human hands, no matter how inspired, to be perfect is exactly why you dont get it..

LOL...This is something non-believers have been saying for a long time and yet every time we do, we get told it is beyond reproach. So now the bible is not perfect? Tell us something we don't know....

 

[dilloduck]

LOL...This is something non-believers have been saying for a long time and yet every time we do, we get told it is beyond reproach. So now the bible is not perfect? Tell us something we don't know....

We keep trying but you are of the sort that does not like to be told anything. You're fervent desire is to do as you please without restraint, feedback or guidelines. Some people grow out of this condition and become aware that they are part of something larger---something that isn't all just ME and MINE. It's hard for people like that to learn and even harder to teach them.

 

[Gem]

dmp,

By your account anyone who asks forgiveness from God should be exempted from judgement by people?

Wow...you just solved the prison overpopulation problem in one blow, haven't ya?!?! Just walk in...ask everyone who has asked God for forgiveness and then let all the people who say yes go cause gosh, I wouldn't want to be accused of judging someone...

Everyone (well...apparently not everyone...since you seem to be having trouble with this concept) understands that God forgives...but that doesn't mean a get out of trouble free pass for your actions while on Earth.

I feel like youre being deliberately obtuse about this issue, dmp...and I'm not really sure why.

I'm not stating that this man doesn't deserve to live the rest of his life in peace. He does...and I'm not trying to stop him. In fact, this thread is the first time I've thought about Jimmy Swaggart in years.

However...what he did again and again was hypocritical, dishonest, and disgusting...all while cloaking himself in a mantle of sanctity. That is wrong - and him asking forgiveness from God is lovely...but it doesn't change the fact that he should no longer be used as an example of a Christian that others should strive to be. He is a bad role model, and he should be ashamed that he has put himself up as a model Christian while knowing full well he was not living that way.

 

[dmp]

dmp,

By your account anyone who asks forgiveness from God should be exempted from judgement by people?

Wow...you just solved the prison overpopulation problem in one blow, haven't ya?!?! Just walk in...ask everyone who has asked God for forgiveness and then let all the people who say yes go cause gosh, I wouldn't want to be accused of judging someone...

Everyone (well...apparently not everyone...since you seem to be having trouble with this concept) understands that God forgives...but that doesn't mean a get out of trouble free pass for your actions while on Earth.

I feel like youre being deliberately obtuse about this issue, dmp...and I'm not really sure why.

I'm not stating that this man doesn't deserve to live the rest of his life in peace. He does...and I'm not trying to stop him. In fact, this thread is the first time I've thought about Jimmy Swaggart in years.

However...what he did again and again was hypocritical, dishonest, and disgusting...all while cloaking himself in a mantle of sanctity. That is wrong - and him asking forgiveness from God is lovely...but it doesn't change the fact that he should no longer be used as an example of a Christian that others should strive to be. He is a bad role model, and he should be ashamed that he has put himself up as a model Christian while knowing full well he was not living that way.

Trivializing isn't becoming of you, Gem. You love living in the past so much - build a time-machine. I bet you could dig up dirt on LOTS of people; even Leaders in the Church.

My point, in it's most basic form, is this: You are doing "christianity" an equal dis-service by bad-mouthing a man you don't know.

 

[Gem]

Trivializing isn't becoming of you, Gem. You love living in the past so much - build a time-machine. I bet you could dig up dirt on LOTS of people; even Leaders in the Church.

My point, in it's most basic form, is this: You are doing "christianity" an equal dis-service by bad-mouthing a man you don't know.

dmp, This has been fun and all....but you've gone from silly and overstated to just plain wacky.

You accuse me of trivializing because i state that a criminal probably isn't the best example of Christians...then you attempt to trivialize my comments with your snippy remarks about living in the past?!?...hmm...

Then you tell me I'm doing Christianity of disservice by commenting on a man I don't know???

Geez...I hope you don't plan on commenting on George Bush or John Kerry anytime soon...you'll just be doing Republicans and Democrats a disservice because you don't know the men personally.

Swaggart should not be held up as an example of a stereotypical Christian. People should not base their opinion of Christianity by this man's example. Most rational Christians know this...not quite sure why you don't.

But thanks for the back-and-forth...its been fascinating.

 

[dmp]

dmp, This has been fun and all....but you've gone from silly and overstated to just plain wacky.

You accuse me of trivializing because i state that a criminal probably isn't the best example of Christians...then you attempt to trivialize my comments with your snippy remarks about living in the past?!?...hmm...

Then you tell me I'm doing Christianity of disservice by commenting on a man I don't know???

Geez...I hope you don't plan on commenting on George Bush or John Kerry anytime soon...you'll just be doing Republicans and Democrats a disservice because you don't know the men personally.

Swaggart should not be held up as an example of a stereotypical Christian. People should not base their opinion of Christianity by this man's example. Most rational Christians know this...not quite sure why you don't.

But thanks for the back-and-forth...its been fascinating.

I think these are the first posts you've done that I haven't been with you, Gem.

You're trivializing the concept of Forgiveness. That's the problem I have with your attitude/comments towards Swaggart. It's like Scrooge. Scrooge was a VERY giving, Loving, Cheerful man -yet he's defined by his mistakes. Swaggart likely never hurt you; yet you don't seem willing to let go incidents which likely happened a decade ago. Maybe I'm too young to know better, but things like he's done, 10 years ago, are under my radar in terms of the man's worth nowadays. Had he KILLED somebody? Had he extorted money from people? Had he done all sorts of REALLY bad things to other people I think I may be a bit more Jaded. However, I have TONS of faith that God, and the people he hurt who are close to him, have forgiven him.

Your comparison to George Bush and Sen. Kerry aren't good comparisons, because those men continue to define themselves by their actions. Kerry's never 'repented' for the lies he told congress 40 years ago.

I'm saying it's best to define people by how they ARE. You'll admit what you know of Swaggart is what you've read. Have you watched him on TV recently? Have you gotten ANY sense of the man's heart? Do even CARE? Is it just easier to paint him with a 10-year-old-paintbrush because non-believers would enjoy seeing him painted that way?

 

[MissileMan]

The fact that you expect any book touched by human hands, no matter how inspired, to be perfect is exactly why you dont get it.

I guess opinions about whether my expectations are unreasonable or not are dependant on whether you believe the Bible is the word of God or the interpretations of what a few men believed God intends. If it's the former, an explanation of how God (omnipotent) couldn't arrange for an accurate (perfect) account of what he wanted to say would be greatly appreciated. If it's the latter...

 

[Dr Grump]

We keep trying but you are of the sort that does not like to be told anything.

Total BS.

You're fervent desire is to do as you please without restraint, feedback or guidelines.

More BS. You think because I don't have a god in my life that I just wish to do as I please without repercussions? How shallow and misguided. You think the "bigger thing" in the world is a god, I think it is the universe in general. You are the one judging me on what I believe in, yet bitch and moan if others do the same to you. Go figure...

Some people grow out of this condition and become aware that they are part of something larger---something that isn't all just ME and MINE. It's hard for people like that to learn and even harder to teach them.

Of course my beliefs aren't about me and mine. There are lots of variables. In order to learn and be taught things the teacher has to know what they are talking about....

 

[dilloduck]

Total BS.

Great response!

More BS. You think because I don't have a god in my life that I just wish to do as I please without repercussions? How shallow and misguided. You think the "bigger thing" in the world is a god, I think it is the universe in general. You are the one judging me on what I believe in, yet bitch and moan if others do the same to you. Go figure...

Another great answer--no, I think you know there are repercussions. You just don't like it. How do you know what I call the "bigger thing" in the universe? I accept that everyone is free to judge everyone---you seem to want to just skate by.

Of course my beliefs aren't about me and mine. There are lots of variables. In order to learn and be taught things the teacher has to know what they are talking about...

Who do you consider to be a teacher?

 

[Dr Grump]

Great response!

To a "great" statement.

Another great answer--no, I think you know there are repercussions. You just don't like it. How do you know what I call the "bigger thing" in the universe? I accept that everyone is free to judge everyone---you seem to want to just skate by.

Repercussions to what? And what don't I like? How do I want to skate on by...in what regard? What do you call the "bigger thing"? To me the bigger thing IS the universe, not who or what created it, if indeed anything did.

Who do you consider to be a teacher?

Not you, that's for sure...

 

[dilloduck]

I don't know how to make it any clearer. A man judges other men using a standard. When this man fails to measure up to his own standards, you judge him by using YOUR standards. Demonizing those who judge demonizes yourself.

 

[Dr Grump]

I don't know how to make it any clearer. A man judges other men using a standard. When this man fails to measure up to his own standards, you judge him by using YOUR standards. Demonizing those who judge demonizes yourself.

Yeah, right....

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Yawn. Another hypocrite. Why am I not surprised? It is just another reason why I just can’t trust Christianity. If these self-righteous preachers really truly believe in peace, love, and joy in an eternal afterlife in heaven, the why the hell do they even come close to engaging in such behavior? It is simply not real. This reminds me of Jimmy Swaggart (caught twice fraternizing with a prostitute), Jim Baker (paying off another woman to keep silent about an affair while over-booking is cozy Amusement park and air-conditioned dog house. I know that even “saved” people sin but come on. These popular preachers who supposedly believe the Bible and lead people should accept a high standard for themselves. I’m not a Christian but I don’t commit near the atrocities and cruel things that these people do – the lies, adultery, thievery, etc.

Gee, thats very analytical and logical of you. Using that thinking, guess you cant trust any organization at all, since they all have their hypocrites.

And, yea, Im with the ranks of, WHO is this guy? Never heard of him, typical of the liberal media, making it out to be bigger than it really is.

I actually find it amazing how republicans can win any elections when you got the MSM so hell bent on making them look bad.

 

[mattskramer]

I don't know how to make it any clearer. A man judges other men using a standard. When this man fails to measure up to his own standards, you judge him by using YOUR standards. Demonizing those who judge demonizes yourself.

What standard are we talking about? Are we criticizing a cashier who sold you a $375 item for $376? No. We are judging someone who would likely say that it is wrong to take Meth and cuddle up with a prostitute of the same sex but did so anyway.

Read your own Bible. Matthew 7:2 says For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

No. He is just one example of many. Open your eyes.
Check out http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/sheep.html

Here is another source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_televangelist_scandals




So you never heard of him. That does not mean that he is not popular. Time Magazine named him one of the country’s 25 most influential evangelicals…

http://www.gazette.com/display.php?id=1326038

See Time’s article at http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101050207/photoessay/11.html

Well, fact is, many of us here have never heard of him. I think it is very representative.

Influential and populare do not equate.

Your examples to prove that Christianity is rampant with immoral people is a pathetic, agenda driven OPINION.

You claim this is the reason you have a problem with Christianity? Then you must have a problem with every single oragnization in existence, because every single one of them have people of such immoral character within them. MLK was known to have affairs, and even worse. SO, should that destroy your high opinion of the civil rights movement?

 

[LuvRPgrl]

What standard are we talking about? Are we criticizing a cashier who sold you a $375 item for $376? No. We are judging someone who would likely say that it is wrong to take Meth and cuddle up with a prostitute of the same sex but did so anyway.

Read your own Bible. Matthew 7:2 says For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

That would be fine if you ONLY accused him of being a hypocrite. But you also judged him for the actions themselves.


Dillo is right, if you think it is wrong for these people to judge others, and you demonize them for it, then you demonize yourself by being judgemental of them.

 

[Abbey Normal]

Repenting is more than just asking for forgiveness. To repent means to take a 180 degree turn. Not only to turn over a new leaf and not do something, but to change to a degree where you will no longer want to.

Exactly. It's amazing how few people understand this.

 

[Emmett]

dmp,

By your account anyone who asks forgiveness from God should be exempted from judgement by people?

Wow...you just solved the prison overpopulation problem in one blow, haven't ya?!?! Just walk in...ask everyone who has asked God for forgiveness and then let all the people who say yes go cause gosh, I wouldn't want to be accused of judging someone...

Everyone (well...apparently not everyone...since you seem to be having trouble with this concept) understands that God forgives...but that doesn't mean a get out of trouble free pass for your actions while on Earth.

I feel like youre being deliberately obtuse about this issue, dmp...and I'm not really sure why.

I'm not stating that this man doesn't deserve to live the rest of his life in peace. He does...and I'm not trying to stop him. In fact, this thread is the first time I've thought about Jimmy Swaggart in years.

However...what he did again and again was hypocritical, dishonest, and disgusting...all while cloaking himself in a mantle of sanctity. That is wrong - and him asking forgiveness from God is lovely...but it doesn't change the fact that he should no longer be used as an example of a Christian that others should strive to be. He is a bad role model, and he should be ashamed that he has put himself up as a model Christian while knowing full well he was not living that way.

YOU MUST SPREAD SOME REP AROUND BEFORE GIVING IT GEM AGAIN, the USMB version of Affirmative Action.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Originally Posted by no1tovote4
Repenting is more than just asking for forgiveness. To repent means to take a 180 degree turn. Not only to turn over a new leaf and not do something, but to change to a degree where you will no longer want to.

Exactly. It's amazing how few people understand this.

What the secularists dont grasp is that when one truly has a spiritual experience, they no longer have the desire to sin. Thats what puts a cap on the notion, "oh, I can repent, and then go on sinning all I want, cuz Im saved already".
When our behavior changes, its not the following of the commandments that saves us, its the having been saved and gratitude that causes us to DESIRE to follow the commandments.
When we follow the commandments for the SOLE purpose of being saved, then thats what is known as legalism. Something which Jesus unrelentlessly attacked the scribes, pharisees and saducees for. That is why he said, do as they do, but dont be as they are, as he was differentiating the PURPOSE BEHIND the actions. He caled them hypocrites because they told the man on the street to LOVE GOD, yet they didnt themselves.
Unlike what the liberals believe about hypocrasy, like accusing the recent evangelical leader who apparently was involved in drugs and homosexuality, requires two things. That you think those you preach to have to follow your own standards, and that you dont think you have to follow them yourself. Its NOT about the persons who is sinning, own standards, its about the standard of the hypocrite, or potential hypocrite.
when that leader sins, if he admits what he did was wrong, then there is no hypocrasy involved. If he doesnt hold others to the same standard, then there is no hypocrasy involved.

 

[mattskramer]

That would be fine if you ONLY accused him of being a hypocrite. But you also judged him for the actions themselves.


Dillo is right, if you think it is wrong for these people to judge others, and you demonize them for it, then you demonize yourself by being judgemental of them.

I don’t think that it is wrong to judge others as long as you can apply the same standard for yourself.