Zone1 Catholicism is true but it's not easy to get in

[Natural Citizen]

True, but I'm almost positive that no one here is a Calvinist.

Yeah, we could probably use one around here. A really strict one, too, to make things interesting.

Anyone come to mind?

btw, I found a pic of you...

That's the perfect kid for that meme. lol.

Ah well. I'll leave you all alone.

 

[Ace Nova]

Being helpful is a good trait, but has nothing to do with salvation. If you believe that people who don't accept God's gift of redemption through Christ go to heaven also, then you have to ignore what Christ said:

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."​

What does that mean to you? Does it mean that only people who believe in Jesus of Nazareth (The man) are to gain salvation? Did Jesus only teach of worldly beliefs of the flesh or were his teachings much deeper, spiritual in nature?

Could have Jesus been speaking of his overall body of work while on Earth? HIS path? HIS Spiritual journey?

"No one comes to the Father except through ME - My Spiritual Path, My Way - Follow My Way"

Do you understand?

 

[buttercup]

Yeah, we could probably use one around here. A really strict one, too, to make things interesting.

Anyone come to mind?

Oh no no no... But yes I know exactly who you have in mind. Gosh, if that guy ever came to this forum, the current battles here between Catholics and non-Catholics would look like this in comparison

 

[The Irish Ram]

What does that mean to you? Does it mean that only people who believe in Jesus of Nazareth (The man) are to gain salvation? Did Jesus only teach of worldly beliefs of the flesh or were his teachings much deeper, spiritual in nature?

Could have Jesus been speaking of his overall body of work while on Earth? HIS path? HIS Spiritual journey?

"No one comes to the Father except through ME - My Spiritual Path, My Way - Follow My Way"

Do you understand?

You added to the scripture to include your works. Which keeps your attention on self, instead of Jesus. And even if you were 100% in following Christ's path, the most important part of His path, you can't reproduce. The pure blood of Christ that washes our sins away, that was shed on the cross.
Gal. 2:21 I do not treat the grace of God as meaningless. For if keeping the law could make us right with God, then there was no need for Christ to die.

How God views our righteousness:
Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;

Isaiah 53:6, “The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
^
There is no amount of work that you can do that can accomplish that act. And that act is the only act that salvages our souls. He alone paid our debt.

Yes, it does mean that Christ is the only way to the Father:
John 14:6-7 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
^
It is a gift from a loving Father, and His Son, and it is for anybody that wants it. It is all inclusive.

 

[ninja007]

Pelagianism is a fifth century heresy that Catholics rejected fifteen hundred years ago. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand. Nor should it be so hard to understand that in entering into God's grace, accepting the gift of salvation, we don't put this salvation on the back shelf of a closet. We use it! We follow the Way of Jesus (the Way of salvation) following his commands in love as he followed God's commandments with love. Catholics respond to salvation, and the works God planned, from the beginning, for us to accomplish.

The question is, does your denomination teach using the gift of salvation or are you instructed to just wait for something to happen? If so, what are you waiting for? Does your denomination hold the belief that God planned works for us from the beginning?

get back to us when you study and learn sanctification.

 

[ScorpioRising007]

A Protestant will invite you to church, give you a Bible to read, and then invite you to do an altar call and be "saved."

So, Protestantism is easy.

If you want to be Catholic, you have to go to a special school and learn about Catholicism. It takes a year and you get the sacraments at Easter. And then, guess what? You're not "saved." You're on the road to being saved, and there's a lot of ways to get knocked off that road.

Growing up my family mainly went to protestant churches, but when I was a baby I was baptised in a Catholic church by my side of the family that is Catholic.

As an adult I enjoyed reading religions and studying many religions. I professed I believed in the prophet Muhamed in front of witnesses, but I still consider myself a Christian and go to Church on Sundays. I go to mainly protestant churches on Sundays, but sometimes I go to a Catholic churches on Sundays. So I am not sure what I would be considered ? Since I was baptised Catholic as a baby I am still Catholic?

For me being Catholic was easy, it happened at birth when I was baptised in a Catholic Church.

...on the side of my family that is Catholic they tend to all be Democrats and vote Democrat.

 

[ding]

So, you want to add you must also remain holy to the scripture?

Hebrews 10:10 He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all,
(but you must remain holy) <or what ding? Our sanctification through Jesus doesn't apply?

While the scripture doesn't include our work at holiness as part of the equation, it does put the holiness of our sanctification squarely on Jesus and the second covenant He established, because He is holy.

Giving your life to Christ isn't an excuse for unrestrained debauchery. It is the opposite.
Debauchery= the old man. In Christ= new creature. God knows our heart.
We are sanctified by the one who really IS holy. And it is a gift given to those who fail at being holy.

No. Holy to God.

 

[The Irish Ram]

No. Holy to God.

Are the Jews holy to God because the keep over 600+ laws? Because they aren't and don't. They fail at being holy to God. That is why the need for sacrifices. We don't even scratch the service of Holy to God. If we did Christ wouldn't have had to die on a cross. He took our sin and gave us His holiness to enter Heaven with.

 

[ding]

Are the Jews holy to God because the keep over 600+ laws? Because they aren't and don't. They fail at being holy to God. That is why the need for sacrifices. We don't even scratch the service of Holy to God. If we did Christ wouldn't have had to die on a cross. He took our sin and gave us His holiness to enter Heaven with.

The only point I am making is that Hadit says that God doesn't allow anything less than holy to enter heaven. So if you think Christ makes you holy, then good for you. Personally I don't know what God allows or doesn't allow and think it's better to err on the side of caution.

 

[The Irish Ram]

The only point I am making is that Hadit says that God doesn't allow anything less than holy to enter heaven. So if you think Christ makes you holy, then good for you. Personally I don't know what God allows or doesn't allow and think it's better to err on the side of caution.

He tells us in the instruction manual. Sin doesn't enter Heaven. Christ took our sin and gave us His sin free record to enter heaven with.

 

[ding]

He tells us in the instruction manual. Sin doesn't enter Heaven. Christ took our sin and gave us His sin free record to enter heaven with.

That's great. Sounds like you believe you have a hall pass.

 

[The Irish Ram]

That's great. Sounds like you believe you have a hall pass.

I have the Passover Lamb of God.
We've covered the hall pass bullshit already....

 

[Ace Nova]

You added to the scripture to include your works. Which keeps your attention on self, instead of Jesus. And even if you were 100% in following Christ's path, the most important part of His path, you can't reproduce. The pure blood of Christ that washes our sins away, that was shed on the cross.
Gal. 2:21 I do not treat the grace of God as meaningless. For if keeping the law could make us right with God, then there was no need for Christ to die.

How God views our righteousness:
Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;

Isaiah 53:6, “The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
^
There is no amount of work that you can do that can accomplish that act. And that act is the only act that salvages our souls. He alone paid our debt.

Yes, it does mean that Christ is the only way to the Father:
John 14:6-7 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
^
It is a gift from a loving Father, and His Son, and it is for anybody that wants it. It is all inclusive.

I admire your zeal for the Word of God, well done.


Isaiah 43:24-26

“I, even I, am he who blots out
your transgressions, for my own sake,
and remembers your sins no more."

Not only does the LORD God forgive sins directly - he also forgets them. God forgives AND forgets sins - directly. That is unconditional forgiveness. The book of Isaiah was written 600 years before Jesus was born.

Now pay close attention - if you state that only through Jesus can mankind be forgiven of sins and be redeemed, are you insinuating that God - The Father Almighty - is not capable of forgiving sins and redeeming mankind? I'd be really careful of what you're preaching there. (Just a hint).

Isaiah 43:3

“I am the Lord your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Redeemer."



In fairness, God was speaking of entire nations as a whole, in most of the Old Testament. But that does not mean God cannot (and does not) forgive sins directly. God sent prophets to spread his message prior to the coming of Christ. The issue is that mankind continued to sin (especially on an individual level).

Jesus' ministry was directed at the individual person (instead of entire nations). Jesus spoke about our entire individual Spirit - both inside and out. He gave us a very direct message - filled with eternal wisdom - on how to gain salvation. And was he correct when stating that the only way to salvation was to follow his path? Of course!

Does that mean that only folks that worship Jesus directly will be saved? Obviously not - or that would make GOD a liar. (According to the book of Isaiah). Do you think God is a liar? I don't.

 

[Ace Nova]

Sin doesn't enter Heaven.

Errr...that's not entirely accurate. Actually, it's false:

Ephesians 6:12: “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.”

And let's not forget that Satan himself was a heavenly being before he was cast out of heaven - along with 1/3 of the heavenly angels.

Sin (Spiritual forces of evil) is an eternal force. The idea is that if we are truly redeemed and righteous by the time we end our lives on Earth (Where sin runs amuck) then it won't be an issue by the time we begin our eternal path in the heavenly realms. If we conquer sin while in the flesh - where sin thrives - it won't (Or shouldn't be) much of an issue once in Spirit.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Ok. Let's take this one first.

Not only does the LORD God forgive sins directly - he also forgets them. God forgives AND forgets sins - directly. That is unconditional forgiveness. The book of Isaiah was written 600 years before Jesus was born

And do you know when they were forgiven? After Jesus paid their debt. All of God's favorites, David, Abraham and the others waited for Christ in Abraham's Bosom, or as it was also called, Paradise, forgiven, but yet to be redeemed. Recall the conversation Abraham had with the rich man and where they were when they had the conversation. Christ spent 3 days there, and when He came back He brought those in Paradise (Abraham's side) with Him. They all stayed for 40 days and then ascended with Christ to Heaven.

The first mention of Christ was in Genesis prophesy:
Gen. 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”
Here is OT David describing Christ's death.
Psalm 22:7-18
All those who see Me ridicule Me.
I am poured out like water, And all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It has melted within Me.
My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And My tongue clings to My jaws
They pierced My hands and My feet…
I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me.
They divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots.
^
Tell me you don't really think David is talking about Israel.

The things OT Isaiah describes here certainly don't refer to land:
Isaiah 53:4-9
Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities; < genesis prophesy
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth
When did the God of Israel lay all of our Iniquity on Israel to redeem us? What cemetery did they bury Israel in?
While the descriptions don't make sense at all when describing land, it fits the crucifixion of Jesus to a t.

if you state that only through Jesus can mankind be forgiven of sins and be redeemed, are you insinuating that God - The Father Almighty - is not capable of forgiving sins and redeeming mankind

The person capable of undoing what Adam did had to be a kinsman redeemer. Christ had to be related to Adam. Christ was Jewish, kept to Jewish law and fulfilled the Law of a kinsman. A kinsman can buy back or regain possession. And that was the method Emanuel<(God with us) used to redeem us. And while God forgave them while they were committing sin, God didn't regain possession of any humans until after their sins were paid for. They all went to Paradise to wait for Christ.

And for my Catholic friends, there was no such thing as partial redemption when it came to being a kinsman-redeemer. Unless the full price was paid, there was no redemption

Does that mean that only folks that worship Jesus directly will be saved?

Yes. It is the only way to be redeemed:
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
^
That came out of Christ's mouth. Is He a liar?

 

[The Irish Ram]

Errr...that's not entirely accurate. Actually, it's false:

Ephesians 6:12: “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.”

And let's not forget that Satan himself was a heavenly being before he was cast out of heaven - along with 1/3 of the heavenly angels.

Sin (Spiritual forces of evil) is an eternal force. The idea is that if we are truly redeemed and righteous by the time we end our lives on Earth (Where sin runs amuck) then it won't be an issue by the time we begin our eternal path in the heavenly realms. If we conquer sin while in the flesh - where sin thrives - it won't (Or shouldn't be) much of an issue once in Spirit.

Actually, it's true. Do you see the s on realms, as in plural? There is more that one realm. Lucifer set up shop in the realm under Heaven:

Daniel 10:12-14: "Relax, Daniel,' he(angel) continued, 'don't be afraid. From the moment you decided to humble yourself to receive understanding, your prayer was heard, and I set out to come to you.
But I was way laid by the angel-prince of the kingdom of Persia (Satan) and was delayed for a good three weeks. But then Michael, one of the chief angel-princes, intervened to help me. I left him there with the prince of the kingdom of Persia. And now I'm here to help you understand what will eventually happen to your people. The vision has to do with what's ahead.
The angel couldn't get down here to earth. He had to call the archangel Michael to help him fight the spiritual forces of evil in their realm.

You know how long sin was allowed to be in Heaven? God shot Lucifer out like a bolt of lightening. Does He abide it now?

Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life​

Sin (Spiritual forces of evil) is an eternal force. The idea is that if we are truly redeemed and righteous by the time we end our lives on Earth (Where sin runs amuck) then it won't be an issue by the time we begin our eternal path in the heavenly realms. If we conquer sin while in the flesh - where sin thrives - it won't (Or shouldn't be) much of an issue once in Spirit

Spiritual forces of evil are eternal beings. Christ never kills Satan. He dispatches Satan and his followers to the Lake of Fire for eternity.

You are redeemed the second you give your life to Christ. Our last breath here is our first breath in Heaven if you accept the gift of propitiation of Christ's work on the cross. It is complete.

What makes you think you can conquer sin? Unless you are Jesus, you fall into this category:

Romans 3:23-24 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God's glorious standard. Yet God, in his grace, freely makes us right in his sight. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins.

And it will be an issue if you think you can be holy enough not to need the gift Jesus gave us by paying our debt for us. If man can be holy enough to enter Heaven by his righteousness, then Jesus didn't need to die to salvage us.

Sorry these 2 posts are sooo long.

 

[The Irish Ram]

And do you know when they were forgiven?

I caught this in post #95 but not in time to edit it. I meant to say, "And do you know when they were redeemed?"

 

[Ace Nova]

Ok. Let's take this one first.


And do you know when they were forgiven? After Jesus paid their debt. All of God's favorites, David, Abraham and the others waited for Christ in Abraham's Bosom, or as it was also called, Paradise, forgiven, but yet to be redeemed. Recall the conversation Abraham had with the rich man and where they were when they had the conversation. Christ spent 3 days there, and when He came back He brought those in Paradise (Abraham's side) with Him. They all stayed for 40 days and then ascended with Christ to Heaven.

The first mention of Christ was in Genesis prophesy:
Gen. 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”
Here is OT David describing Christ's death.
Psalm 22:7-18
All those who see Me ridicule Me.
I am poured out like water, And all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It has melted within Me.
My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And My tongue clings to My jaws
They pierced My hands and My feet…
I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me.
They divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots.
^
Tell me you don't really think David is talking about Israel.

The things OT Isaiah describes here certainly isn't land:
Isaiah 53:4-9
Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities; < genesis prophesy
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth."
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth
When did the God of Israel lay all of our Iniquity on Israel to redeem us? What cemetery did they bury Israel in?
While the descriptions don't make sense at all when describing land, it fits the crucifixion of Jesus to a t.


The person capable of undoing what Adam did had to be a kinsman redeemer. Christ had to be related to Adam. Christ was Jewish, kept to Jewish law and fulfilled the Law of a kinsman. A kinsman can buy back or regain possession. And that was the method Emanuel<(God with us) used to redeem us. And while God forgave them while they were committing sin, God didn't regain possession of any humans until after their sins were paid for. They all went to Paradise to wait for Christ.

And for my Catholic friends, there was no such thing as partial redemption when it came to being a kinsman-redeemer. Unless the full price was paid, there was no redemption

Yes. It is the only way to be redeemed:
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
^
That came out of Christ's mouth. Is He a liar?

"No one comes to the Father except through me" (Meaning by my way/path/teachings/works, etc)

And...

“I am the Lord your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Redeemer."

The two verses are not mutually exclusive. Both can be true.

For Catholics it's easily understood because we believe in the Holy Trinity. One God - 3 Persons - The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit

For example, when we confess our sins, we pray in the name of the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit and we pray directly to God, we repent and ask God for forgiveness.

My personal beliefs are that all things are possible through faith and God - which means that if God wills it, He can redeem anyone he sees fit. Nothing in the Bible or any other religious texts contradicts this.

And we, as fellow Christians, should not ostracize people of various beliefs by telling them that there is no salvation unless you do "this" or "that". Who are we to judge others? Do we know what is in a person's heart as God knows what is in a person's heart? Did God give us authority to judge the living and the dead?

 

[Zebra]

A Protestant will invite you to church, give you a Bible to read, and then invite you to do an altar call and be "saved."

So, Protestantism is easy.

If you want to be Catholic, you have to go to a special school and learn about Catholicism. It takes a year and you get the sacraments at Easter. And then, guess what? You're not "saved." You're on the road to being saved, and there's a lot of ways to get knocked off that road.

i am a Catholic …. and i dont know such schools

 

[The Irish Ram]

Sorry Ace, but a kinsman redeemer can't make a partial payment. If He can't make the whole payment then the redemption doesn't happen.
Our righteous works are like used menstrual pads to God.
If you are correct, then your eye is constantly on yourself. It's one of the reasons God hated the Law.
Our salvation is not of ourselves, lest any man boast. This is what it takes to be salvaged:

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.