Shock. Disbelief. Denial.

[no1tovote4]

Gem:

Perhaps you have a point. I suppose that in is not logical to discount a message because of the evils of many messengers. Still, doctors tell me that smoking is bad for me. I don’t see any doctors that smoke. Preachers say that it is wrong to lie and cheat and steal. I learn about many preachers lie cheat and steal. I don’t have anything against quiet and peaceful Christians. From what I hear about the Amish, I think that I’d consider them to be ideal religious people. Let’s just say that I have my suspicions when I hear popular preachers get in my face and try to tell me how to live. I have a bitter skepticism about it. It would be a little bit easier for me to believe something so great and wonderful if all preachers would follow their supposed beliefs. That is all that I really have to comment about it.

I personally know many doctors who smoke. Most of them are surgeons who smoke as well as use the patch or gum while in surgery. Nicotine increases eye/hand coordination and concentration, and increases memory access.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Being who he is and what he preaches, why did the good Reverend Haggard choose to be gay? After all, it IS a lifestyle choice...Right?

 

[dmp]

Being who he is and what he preaches, why did the good Reverend Haggard choose to be gay? After all, it IS a lifestyle choice...Right?

We don't know he did. We do know - by the Rev's admission - he bought drugs from a homo. That's it so far.

 

[Avatar4321]

Being who he is and what he preaches, why did the good Reverend Haggard choose to be gay? After all, it IS a lifestyle choice...Right?

What? People dont do stupid stuff on drugs now?

 

[Bullypulpit]

What? People dont do stupid stuff on drugs now?

You just don't get it...Do ya. Or, more likely, choose not to.

 

[Avatar4321]

You just don't get it...Do ya. Or, more likely, choose not to.

No i get it plenty. You are trying to conclude that because someone who is publicly against homosexuality is a closet homosexual that somehow he had no choice in the matter. Its utter sophistry. There are plenty of reason he might choose to do something like that. The fact that he is drugged up is a pretty good reason why he might do something he doesnt do normally.

 

[Bullypulpit]

No i get it plenty. You are trying to conclude that because someone who is publicly against homosexuality is a closet homosexual that somehow he had no choice in the matter. Its utter sophistry. There are plenty of reason he might choose to do something like that. The fact that he is drugged up is a pretty good reason why he might do something he doesnt do normally.

Come, come now...Answer the question. Given his background, his avocation and ministry, did the good reverend choose to be homosexual? Or, was he perhaps some how predisposed to homosexuality by genetics, gestation, upbringing or some combination thereof?

You assertion that the drugs made him engage in homosexual acts is nothing short of ludicrous. Alcohol and drugs only expose what is already there.

 

[Avatar4321]

Come, come now...Answer the question. Given his background, his avocation and ministry, did the good reverend choose to be homosexual? Or, was he perhaps some how predisposed to homosexuality by genetics, gestation, upbringing or some combination thereof?

You assertion that the drugs made him engage in homosexual acts is nothing short of ludicrous. Alcohol and drugs only expose what is already there.

No, alcohol and drugs impairs the ability to reason and opens you up to temptations. You are still responsible for the choices to make in this situation, but if you dont think you make decisions you wouldnt make otherwise while impaired you are one of the most ignorant individual in the world.

 

[Gem]

Gem:

Perhaps you have a point. I suppose that in is not logical to discount a message because of the evils of many messengers.

You're absolutely right. It is NOT logical to discount a message because of the evils of SOME messengers. I think you are still confusing the visibility of these crooks with the number of them. You can name the evil preachers we have been talking about on your hand...there are MILLIONS of Christians, Matt.

Just as we strive not to judge the MILLIONS of good, decent Muslims by the 23 men who attacked us on 9-11...you should also strive not to judge the MILLIONS of good, decent Christians who haven't lied, cheated, and/or stolen from people.

Christians the world over do SO much good with their charitable works...churches are always some of the first organizations on the scene to help in tragic situaitons like Hurricane Katrina, 9-11, or the tsunami. They deserve far better than to be lumped into a category with Jimmy Swagert!

Still, doctors tell me that smoking is bad for me. I don’t see any doctors that smoke. Preachers say that it is wrong to lie and cheat and steal. I learn about many preachers lie cheat and steal.

Some doctors probably do smoke...it doesn't mean that you should ignore them if they tell you not to smoke - their message is still accurate, even if they choose not to live by it.

Similarly, hypocritical preachers may not live their message - but most people are able to understand that the PERSON delivering the message is evil or an asshole...not the message itself...and not everyone who follows that message.

I don’t have anything against quiet and peaceful Christians. From what I hear about the Amish, I think that I’d consider them to be ideal religious people. Let’s just say that I have my suspicions when I hear popular preachers get in my face and try to tell me how to live. I have a bitter skepticism about it. It would be a little bit easier for me to believe something so great and wonderful if all preachers would follow their supposed beliefs. That is all that I really have to comment about it.

I respect that you have stated what you have...I hit you pretty hard on your statement...and although I stand by what I said, I'm glad you continued with the conversation.

I suppose my closing statement would simply be to ask you to make sure you aren't holding impossibly high standards for Christianity that you aren't holding to other religions and/or groups.

You state that it would be easier for you to believe something if ALL preachers would follow their supposed beliefs. ALL people being perfect is a pretty big order to fill.

Perhaps you should try focusing on the millions of decent Christians trying to show you and others everyday how Christianity has made their lives better and made them better people ....rather than dwelling only on the few people who chose to be hypocrites.

As I said before...at a minimum, give the Christians the same benefit of a doubt you give the Muslims. All muslims are not terrorists...their religion is not a religion of death and murdering those who do not agree with them - even if a small portion of Muslims believe it is. All Christians are not hypocrites, their religion is not a religion of hypocrisy and lies...even if some have chosen to treat it that way.

 

[dmp]

They deserve far better than to be lumped into a category with Jimmy Swagert!

AFAIK, Jimmy Swaggart is a good man, trying to do the right thing. Has he 'sinned' again? I know of his public sinning in the 1980s, but I think I remember him Asking for forgiveness. I assume God's forgiven him. IF that's the case, he's no longer a sexual pervert. He paid a stripper to dance naked on the dresser. That's it. Have you ever sinned, Gem? Don't answer that - but how'd you like to be forever remembered for ONE sin which made it public? If forgiveness is real, Mr. Swaggart is clean of his previous transgressions, just as I (and you, if you ask) are free from yours.

 

[Dr Grump]

Great. Every time I **** up, I'll just ask for forgiveness and all will be right...

 

[dilloduck]

Great. Every time I **** up, I'll just ask for forgiveness and all will be right...

Don't mock a concept until you understand it.

 

[dmp]

Great. Every time I **** up, I'll just ask for forgiveness and all will be right...

That's one way to do it - But see, what you can't grasp is the concept of Grace and Repentence. For you, "asking forgiveness" is a get-out-of-jail free card. That's understandable because you don't have the mindset of one who's accepted Christ. Relax.

 

[Dr Grump]

That's one way to do it - But see, what you can't grasp is the concept of Grace and Repentence. For you, "asking forgiveness" is a get-out-of-jail free card. That's understandable because you don't have the mindset of one who's accepted Christ. Relax.

Sounds like Swaggart didn't either. He was caught with another prostitute (hardly a lap dancer) in his car three years after his initial "sin"....How many get-out-of-jail free cards does he get?

 

[Dr Grump]

Don't mock a concept until you understand it.

Understanding it is very basic, believing it is another thing altogether. Somehow I don't think you understand that....:arabia:

 

[dmp]

Sounds like Swaggart didn't either. He was caught with another prostitute (hardly a lap dancer) in his car three years after his initial "sin"....How many get-out-of-jail free cards does he get?

of COURSE He did....That'd be nice for you, eh? So - between 1987 and 1990 the guy paid TWO hookers to dance naked on the dresser. When have you last sinned, brother?

 

[Avatar4321]

Great. Every time I **** up, I'll just ask for forgiveness and all will be right...

Repentence is more than just asking for forgiveness. Confession is but the first step. You can tell if someone has repented by whether they confess and forsake their sins.

 

[Dr Grump]

of COURSE He did....That'd be nice for you, eh? So - between 1987 and 1990 the guy paid TWO hookers to dance naked on the dresser. When have you last sinned, brother?

Yep..they even named her..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Swaggart

On October 11, 1991, in Indio, California, police stopped Swaggart for driving on the wrong side of the road. In the car with him was yet another prostitute, named Rosemary Garcia. No sex-related charges were filed in that incident.

Of course no charges were related. She was a hitchhiker, right?

I do not believe in the concept of sin. I believe in right and wrong. Have I done wrong in the past? Sure. But then again I'm not the one bleating about sinners then going out and committing sins myself am I?

 

[dmp]

Yep..they even named her..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Swaggart

On October 11, 1991, in Indio, California, police stopped Swaggart for driving on the wrong side of the road. In the car with him was yet another prostitute, named Rosemary Garcia. No sex-related charges were filed in that incident.

Of course no charges were related. She was a hitchhiker, right?

I do not believe in the concept of sin. I believe in right and wrong. Have I done wrong in the past? Sure. But then again I'm not the one bleating about sinners then going out and committing sins myself am I?

You've got QUITE a rebelious/bitter/hypocritical mindset, brother.

 

[Dr Grump]

Repentence is more than just asking for forgiveness. Confession is but the first step. You can tell if someone has repented by whether they confess and forsake their sins.

Or whether they repent and confess, then carry on with said behaviour/sin...