Seriously, Why Do So Many Liberals Keep Lying About the Trump Tax Cuts?

[Andylusion]

The bottom line is that left-wing ideology is built on lies and myths.

Asking why a left-winger lies, is like asking why a snake bites.

It's what they do.

Honestly if they didn't lie, they wouldn't be able to rationalize their support for thousands of terrible policies that have never worked in human history.

Social security and Medicare, both progressive policies and both very good for the people of this country... the VA, a progressive government program and very good for our vets. Many more out there but we don’t have all night... you should stop with the partisan rhetoric

So lets look at the facts, rather than your opinion.

Trustees Report Summary

Social Security’s total cost is projected to exceed its total income (including interest) in 2020.​

When Social Security was created, it was a 1% tax. Now it is a 15% tax, and still going broke. Not only that but the average monthly benefit from Social Security is barely $1,400 a month, meaning 50% of all recipients are getting less than that.

That same amount of money flushed down the toilet of Social Security, if invested in real assets, would result in most people with a half million, to a million or more by retirement. Instead they are living in poverty, most being forced to work menial jobs to make ends meet, and still bankrupting the country.

The people of Greece said the same thing about their pension system, until their country imploded.

You people are a joke. You keep everyone impoverished at the low income levels with your 15% tax, and then keep them impoverished in their old age with your McJob level Social Security benefit, and then are ignorant enough to think you are helping people. You guys are like the abusive husband, hitting his wife over saying "You should be thanking me!".

If rich people had to pay the same percentage of their income to Social Security as poor people, social security would be fine.

Rich people only pay on the first $132,900 of income. Then they don't pay anymore.

Because what would happen if nobody protected the rich people? They would starve.

But here's the problem with that... Do you believe that you should get out what you pay in? Because this is supposed to be a pension fund, right? So would I pay in $10,000 into my 401K, so I could get back $5,000? Would you?

Do you think that is right, to take your money, and give no compensation?

No. Of course not. You would be infuriated by that, and you know it. (and rightly so)

Social Security has a maximum benefit. Why would I pay into something, more money, knowing I wasn't going to get more back?

Well I wouldn't. Is that not the definition of immoral to take people's money, supposedly for retirement, and then give them nothing in return? Of course.

So.... unless you want to be an evil dictator, you have to give those people that you are taking more of their money for social security, more benefits at retirement.

If you do that, then the problem has not improved.

And by the way.... the moment that you do that... the moment that you jack up the cost of Social Security without giving comparative benefit..... if you can elect a politician who will do that to someone else..... someone else will elect a politician who will do that to you.

It's like screwing a man who is already married. If he can cheat with you, then he can cheat on you.

If you find some politicians to screw someone else over.... it's just a matter of time before someone elects people who will screw you over.

Don't go that way. Bad idea.

 

[Andylusion]

The bottom line is that left-wing ideology is built on lies and myths.

Asking why a left-winger lies, is like asking why a snake bites.

It's what they do.

Honestly if they didn't lie, they wouldn't be able to rationalize their support for thousands of terrible policies that have never worked in human history.

Social security and Medicare, both progressive policies and both very good for the people of this country... the VA, a progressive government program and very good for our vets. Many more out there but we don’t have all night... you should stop with the partisan rhetoric

I have to wonder, do you use any of those government programs? I assure you both social security and medicare are not the panacea you think they are. I had the privilege of assisting my elderly neighbor for many years get to and from the doctor and actually paid for her medication on many occassions because between those two programs and her retirement, she still didn't have enough to cover the cost of her meds. Not to mention she should have easily qualified for home health assistance but had to fight tooth and nail to get it for her.
As for VA. I am retired military. I did 22 plus years active duty and my struggles with the VA have been enormous. Now, that being said, it's nowhere as bad as it was when I first retired but it's still, really damn frustrating when you have to wait 3 weeks to a month to see a specialist because something is wrong.... I say better because it was 6 months to a year. If I didn't have other insurance, Tricare, which I pay for from my retirement, some very bad things would have went down for me shortly after I retired.
So, do you?

My brother-in-law had the same problem. All he needed was some surgery on his hand, to fix a deployment related injury. After a year and a half of waiting just to see the doctor to get the surgery setup... he finally went to a private doctor, paid out of pocket, and had the surgery done the same week he went to the doctor.

This is the reality of gov-run anything. But left-wingers don't care. They'll have people sitting in an ER for 36 hours only to die, as long as it's free, and no one is 'profiting' from it.

I have a family member on Medicare and it has been great. He got a knee replacement and didn't have to wait but a month or so.

I guess we know how to do it better in California.

Well no, Medicare does work because it runs through private health care institutions.

The problem there is, Medicare is going broke.

Unfunded Govt. Liabilities -- Our Ticking Time Bomb | RealClearPolitics

Medicare, according to the Trustee report from just last year, suggest that we have roughly $122 Trillion dollars in unfunded liabilities.

Yeah, it works great.... until the money runs out. Like all socialism, eventually you run out of other people's money to spend.

 

[Slade3200]

The bottom line is that left-wing ideology is built on lies and myths.

Asking why a left-winger lies, is like asking why a snake bites.

It's what they do.

Honestly if they didn't lie, they wouldn't be able to rationalize their support for thousands of terrible policies that have never worked in human history.

Social security and Medicare, both progressive policies and both very good for the people of this country... the VA, a progressive government program and very good for our vets. Many more out there but we don’t have all night... you should stop with the partisan rhetoric

So lets look at the facts, rather than your opinion.

Trustees Report Summary

Social Security’s total cost is projected to exceed its total income (including interest) in 2020.​

When Social Security was created, it was a 1% tax. Now it is a 15% tax, and still going broke. Not only that but the average monthly benefit from Social Security is barely $1,400 a month, meaning 50% of all recipients are getting less than that.

That same amount of money flushed down the toilet of Social Security, if invested in real assets, would result in most people with a half million, to a million or more by retirement. Instead they are living in poverty, most being forced to work menial jobs to make ends meet, and still bankrupting the country.

The people of Greece said the same thing about their pension system, until their country imploded.

You people are a joke. You keep everyone impoverished at the low income levels with your 15% tax, and then keep them impoverished in their old age with your McJob level Social Security benefit, and then are ignorant enough to think you are helping people. You guys are like the abusive husband, hitting his wife over saying "You should be thanking me!".

Your whole premise is that citizens would all invest their social security savings if the fund didn’t exist. You know that’s not the case so instead of playing off that fantasy why don’t you promote realistic solutions like making the fund grow better and be more cost effective?

 

[Andylusion]

The bottom line is that left-wing ideology is built on lies and myths.

Asking why a left-winger lies, is like asking why a snake bites.

It's what they do.

Honestly if they didn't lie, they wouldn't be able to rationalize their support for thousands of terrible policies that have never worked in human history.

Social security and Medicare, both progressive policies and both very good for the people of this country... the VA, a progressive government program and very good for our vets. Many more out there but we don’t have all night... you should stop with the partisan rhetoric

So lets look at the facts, rather than your opinion.

Trustees Report Summary

Social Security’s total cost is projected to exceed its total income (including interest) in 2020.​

When Social Security was created, it was a 1% tax. Now it is a 15% tax, and still going broke. Not only that but the average monthly benefit from Social Security is barely $1,400 a month, meaning 50% of all recipients are getting less than that.

That same amount of money flushed down the toilet of Social Security, if invested in real assets, would result in most people with a half million, to a million or more by retirement. Instead they are living in poverty, most being forced to work menial jobs to make ends meet, and still bankrupting the country.

The people of Greece said the same thing about their pension system, until their country imploded.

You people are a joke. You keep everyone impoverished at the low income levels with your 15% tax, and then keep them impoverished in their old age with your McJob level Social Security benefit, and then are ignorant enough to think you are helping people. You guys are like the abusive husband, hitting his wife over saying "You should be thanking me!".

Your whole premise is that citizens would all invest their social security savings if the fund didn’t exist. You know that’s not the case so instead of playing off that fantasy why don’t you promote realistic solutions like making the fund grow better and be more cost effective?

No, that is not my premise at all.

What you do with your money, is your business. If you intend to blow all your cash, and be poor, then that should be the results of your choices.

My premise is called "freedom". It is the idea that people should be allowed to make that choice for themselves.

See under my system, you can be rich or be poor, according to the choices you make.

Under your system you are enslaved to an ideology that virtually guarantees poverty. Yes, a poverty that will barely keep you alive... but poverty nonetheless.

Under my system, if you choose to be in poverty, that's your choice. But you can choose to be rich. $100 a month into a 401K, or IRA, by the time you retire, will be a million dollars or close to it.

That 15% tax on minimum wage, is $180 a month, and for that tax into social security, you'll end up with poverty. Social Security costs almost double, and you go from retiring a millionaire, to retiring in utter poverty.

Now again, you can choose to never save a penny, and end up in poverty, but at least you have the choice. And spare me that people would die without social security, because right now as things are now, old people are already forced into low income jobs to make ends meet.

And ironically they lose part of, or even all of, their social security if they go work a job. And even more ironic, they end up paying social security tax on that low-income job they have, to pay for benefits that they are denied getting, because they have a job.

Only in left-wing socialist hellish world, does this make sense.

 

[WheelieAddict]

Most liberals continue to claim that the Trump tax cuts were "mainly for millionaires and billionaires," "a giveaway to the uber-rich," etc., etc. But anyone can look at the tax tables and see with their own eyes that the top bracket a much smaller rate cut than did the middle-income brackets. The second and third brackets got a cut of 3 percentage points each, which equaled a 20% rate cut for the second bracket and 12% rate cut for the third bracket. The fourth bracket got a cut of 4 percentage points, or 14%. The top bracket--the one for people who earn $600K and above--got a cut of 2.6 percentage points, or just 6.6%. Don't believe me? Here are the 2017 and 2018 tax tables, which anyone can Google:

2017
Tax Bracket Tax Rate
$0.00+ 10%
$18,650+ 15%
$75,900+ 25%
$153,100+ 28%
$233,350+ 33%
$416,700+ 35%
$470,700+ 39.6%

2018 (under Trump’s tax cuts)
Tax Bracket Tax Rate
$0.00+ 10%
$19,050+ 12%
$77,400+ 22%
$165,000+ 24%
$315,000+ 32%
$400,000+ 35%
$600,000+ 37%

What's more, notice that the fifth bracket got a cut of only 1 percentage point, and that the sixth bracket got no cut at all.

Also, keep in mind that the rich got hit particularly hard by the tax cut bill's $10K cap on state and local taxes (SALT). Someone who owns a house worth, say, $2.0 million, will pay $26K just in property taxes, based on the nationwide median average of 1.3% for property taxes. Someone with an income of, say, $2 million per year will pay $100,000 in state income taxes, and that's assuming a low state income tax rate of 5%. So a rich person who makes $2 million per year and owns a house worth $2 million lost $116,000 in tax breaks because of the Trump tax cuts.

Finally, if any liberals cite the cut in the corporate income tax rate as justification for their false description of the Trump tax cuts as "mainly helping millionaires and billionaires," I would point out two important facts that debunk this nonsense:

One, the corporate income tax rate was cut to 21%, which put it in the range of the corporate income tax rates in Europe and Asia, which range between 18% and 21%. So this was an entirely sensible reduction that put our companies in a better position to compete with foreign companies.

Two, as part of the rate cut from 35% to 21%, the Republicans imposed a one-time mandatory tax on American corporate money parked overseas: 8% on illiquid/reinvested assets and 15.5% on cash and cash equivalents, which amounted to a tax of about $2.6 trillion on U.S. business profits held overseas.

Did they pay for themselves yet?

 

[Andylusion]

The bottom line is that left-wing ideology is built on lies and myths.

Asking why a left-winger lies, is like asking why a snake bites.

It's what they do.

Honestly if they didn't lie, they wouldn't be able to rationalize their support for thousands of terrible policies that have never worked in human history.

Social security and Medicare, both progressive policies and both very good for the people of this country... the VA, a progressive government program and very good for our vets. Many more out there but we don’t have all night... you should stop with the partisan rhetoric

So lets look at the facts, rather than your opinion.

Trustees Report Summary

Social Security’s total cost is projected to exceed its total income (including interest) in 2020.​

When Social Security was created, it was a 1% tax. Now it is a 15% tax, and still going broke. Not only that but the average monthly benefit from Social Security is barely $1,400 a month, meaning 50% of all recipients are getting less than that.

That same amount of money flushed down the toilet of Social Security, if invested in real assets, would result in most people with a half million, to a million or more by retirement. Instead they are living in poverty, most being forced to work menial jobs to make ends meet, and still bankrupting the country.

The people of Greece said the same thing about their pension system, until their country imploded.

You people are a joke. You keep everyone impoverished at the low income levels with your 15% tax, and then keep them impoverished in their old age with your McJob level Social Security benefit, and then are ignorant enough to think you are helping people. You guys are like the abusive husband, hitting his wife over saying "You should be thanking me!".

Your whole premise is that citizens would all invest their social security savings if the fund didn’t exist. You know that’s not the case so instead of playing off that fantasy why don’t you promote realistic solutions like making the fund grow better and be more cost effective?

I'll even meet you half way.

So here is my proposal......

Allow people to opt-out of social security. Cut that tax in half, and everyone that opts-out of social security, still pays 5% of their check into retirement, but instead of into social security, it can go into any private retirement fund of their choice.

Because here's the real point.

Social security is going broke. Doesn't matter what you have to say about poor people, and old people, and so on, and fairness, and how people won't be responsible in saving for retirement.

None of that matter. Math doesn't change. Math says social security will go broke.

So we need a replacement, whether you believe it, or not. Whether you want social security to change or not... it will.

It will either change when the country implodes from default... or it will change because we stopped the country from going broke.

 

[DamnDude]

I have to wonder, do you use any of those government programs? I assure you both social security and medicare are not the panacea you think they are. I had the privilege of assisting my elderly neighbor for many years get to and from the doctor and actually paid for her medication on many occassions because between those two programs and her retirement, she still didn't have enough to cover the cost of her meds. Not to mention she should have easily qualified for home health assistance but had to fight tooth and nail to get it for her.
As for VA. I am retired military. I did 22 plus years active duty and my struggles with the VA have been enormous. Now, that being said, it's nowhere as bad as it was when I first retired but it's still, really damn frustrating when you have to wait 3 weeks to a month to see a specialist because something is wrong.... I say better because it was 6 months to a year. If I didn't have other insurance, Tricare, which I pay for from my retirement, some very bad things would have went down for me shortly after I retired.
So, do you?

I don’t... my mother has both and I help her manage her medical and finances. I agree neither is perfect and both could use improvement on many levels. But let me ask... what if none of those existed? Would your neighbor that you helped out be able to afford care with zero coverage? What would she do?

With zero coverage and not believing in the false promises of the government will be there to take care of you in your old age? I'd like to believe she would have planned things out better and not had the frustrations she did have. She was a glorious old hag of italian decent, who grew up with the belief that social security would be therefor the elderly and help take care of them. It wasn't enough. She worked 50 someodd years, 30 with Northrup Gruman, and very little to show for it at the end.
She died last October 2nd, and it was a sad, sad day. I hope she is able to give Francis Perkins a whole earful.
I guess I shouldn't pick on him alone, there have been enough cherry picking bullshit done by bothsides since he devised it to fuck it all up.

Sorry for your loss... but let’s take your theory a step further and say that a percentage of people do as you say and without the safety net decide to do the responsible thing and save for retirement and medical expenses... there is still going to be a percentage that doesn’t, right? That’s millions of people that couldn’t afford or have the discipline to save for their golden years. What happens to these people when they are sick and broke?

Paint me as a bad guy/heartless here all you want, but at some point it either has to be fixed, or it will go bankrupt. I have been one of those people who pushed off preparing for the future. Many a time it was, "ahh, I'll do it later" just to finally realize that later was always just that later. So, I started small and started paying off credit cards, decided I didn't need a new car every 4 to 5 years, paid off those vehicles and started putting that money aside, got my kids into college, and make sure they take the responsibility to do the right thing. I took the responsibility to take care of me and mine. I took care of my own house and those around me. Yes, my taxes go toward those programs, and specifically social security is taken out as well. However, before I go off on a complete tangent, we are all forced (through our paycheck deductions) to participate. Yet the return on investment just doesn't seem to be there. What happens to those that don't prepare? Right here and now, they will get the care the hospitals deem them to warrant per what they can get paid. Whether that be strictly through medicare/caid or if supplemental insurance is involved or if the individual patient can pay out of pocket.
What did people do before social security and medicare? I have no idea, I wasn't there, but I'm willing to bet it was a whole hell of a lot cheaper that what it is now; dollar for adjusted dollar.
We used to be a nation based on self reliance. Then the government stepped in, and we allowed it.

I’m sorry but I just don’t think that answer is good enough. You should research and see what happened to our elderly before social security and Medicare. Understand the effects it had on standard of living and our society. And then really think through what happens to the millions of elderly people who get sick and can’t afford care or didn’t save enough to retire. Think about what happens to those millions of people and how that impacts our nation...

Ok, you don't think personal responsibility and taking care of your own is the right way to do it? That's you.
You'll notice I haven't been waiting with baited breathe for each and every one of your replies. There's a reason for that. Today has been a full day. Fixed a plumbing issue this morning in a customer's kitchen, got a call because someone else's ac was blowing mixed air, but that was an easy fix, just had to actually put the air duct on the vent properly. And this evening I spent on other taskings before doing my paperwork. Gotta stay legal and shit, ya know...
But, I digress.
Not everyone has the same work ethic, drive nor ambition to take care of themselves or theirs. I get it. What I don't get is where and why did it become my issue because Ralph Rottencrotch decided to tune out and bake his brain on meth to the point he's drawing ss disability because of his choices. People who harm themselves in such a manner shouldn't be your issue nor mine.
As to those who don't think ahead for themselves, and plan accordingly, why should you and I have to bolster their standard of living? Am I my brother's keeper? No comma I am not period
The elderly that I am most pained for are those such as my neighbor, paid in for over 50 years, stopped working at 70 because her knees just wouldn't hold out anymore and she got bumpkiss for the amount of money she paid in. Moved onto medicare and thought it would be a good thing even though she had to change doctors but still..... Then the prescriptions came....
Moving on...
Had social security been left alone and allowed to do what it was initially meant to do, I probably would be more accepting of it. However, its been pushed into the general fund and now we get the fear mongering from both left and right that it's bankrupting us. No, misusing and putting it in the general fund has allowed it to be another form of tax for spenadaholics to use as they so please. It's a wasted argument to say otherwise. ANDYLUSION, I believe it was posted what ss started out as and what its going rate is now. Kind of like a real long term bait and switch, with all sorts of laws to make it legal.... Legal, but not morally right.

 

[Slade3200]

The bottom line is that left-wing ideology is built on lies and myths.

Asking why a left-winger lies, is like asking why a snake bites.

It's what they do.

Honestly if they didn't lie, they wouldn't be able to rationalize their support for thousands of terrible policies that have never worked in human history.

Social security and Medicare, both progressive policies and both very good for the people of this country... the VA, a progressive government program and very good for our vets. Many more out there but we don’t have all night... you should stop with the partisan rhetoric

So lets look at the facts, rather than your opinion.

Trustees Report Summary

Social Security’s total cost is projected to exceed its total income (including interest) in 2020.​

When Social Security was created, it was a 1% tax. Now it is a 15% tax, and still going broke. Not only that but the average monthly benefit from Social Security is barely $1,400 a month, meaning 50% of all recipients are getting less than that.

That same amount of money flushed down the toilet of Social Security, if invested in real assets, would result in most people with a half million, to a million or more by retirement. Instead they are living in poverty, most being forced to work menial jobs to make ends meet, and still bankrupting the country.

The people of Greece said the same thing about their pension system, until their country imploded.

You people are a joke. You keep everyone impoverished at the low income levels with your 15% tax, and then keep them impoverished in their old age with your McJob level Social Security benefit, and then are ignorant enough to think you are helping people. You guys are like the abusive husband, hitting his wife over saying "You should be thanking me!".

Your whole premise is that citizens would all invest their social security savings if the fund didn’t exist. You know that’s not the case so instead of playing off that fantasy why don’t you promote realistic solutions like making the fund grow better and be more cost effective?

No, that is not my premise at all.

What you do with your money, is your business. If you intend to blow all your cash, and be poor, then that should be the results of your choices.

My premise is called "freedom". It is the idea that people should be allowed to make that choice for themselves.

See under my system, you can be rich or be poor, according to the choices you make.

Under your system you are enslaved to an ideology that virtually guarantees poverty. Yes, a poverty that will barely keep you alive... but poverty nonetheless.

Under my system, if you choose to be in poverty, that's your choice. But you can choose to be rich. $100 a month into a 401K, or IRA, by the time you retire, will be a million dollars or close to it.

That 15% tax on minimum wage, is $180 a month, and for that tax into social security, you'll end up with poverty. Social Security costs almost double, and you go from retiring a millionaire, to retiring in utter poverty.

Now again, you can choose to never save a penny, and end up in poverty, but at least you have the choice. And spare me that people would die without social security, because right now as things are now, old people are already forced into low income jobs to make ends meet.

And ironically they lose part of, or even all of, their social security if they go work a job. And even more ironic, they end up paying social security tax on that low-income job they have, to pay for benefits that they are denied getting, because they have a job.

Only in left-wing socialist hellish world, does this make sense.

Ok well let’s kist play out your freedom method. You know millions of people with not save enough money to retire and be able to afford the medical care that they need. That is already the case with the “safety nets” we have in place. Now with no nets what happens?

They now have to fend for themselves and how does that affect our society as a whole. Please explain?

 

[Slade3200]

The bottom line is that left-wing ideology is built on lies and myths.

Asking why a left-winger lies, is like asking why a snake bites.

It's what they do.

Honestly if they didn't lie, they wouldn't be able to rationalize their support for thousands of terrible policies that have never worked in human history.

Social security and Medicare, both progressive policies and both very good for the people of this country... the VA, a progressive government program and very good for our vets. Many more out there but we don’t have all night... you should stop with the partisan rhetoric

So lets look at the facts, rather than your opinion.

Trustees Report Summary

Social Security’s total cost is projected to exceed its total income (including interest) in 2020.​

When Social Security was created, it was a 1% tax. Now it is a 15% tax, and still going broke. Not only that but the average monthly benefit from Social Security is barely $1,400 a month, meaning 50% of all recipients are getting less than that.

That same amount of money flushed down the toilet of Social Security, if invested in real assets, would result in most people with a half million, to a million or more by retirement. Instead they are living in poverty, most being forced to work menial jobs to make ends meet, and still bankrupting the country.

The people of Greece said the same thing about their pension system, until their country imploded.

You people are a joke. You keep everyone impoverished at the low income levels with your 15% tax, and then keep them impoverished in their old age with your McJob level Social Security benefit, and then are ignorant enough to think you are helping people. You guys are like the abusive husband, hitting his wife over saying "You should be thanking me!".

Your whole premise is that citizens would all invest their social security savings if the fund didn’t exist. You know that’s not the case so instead of playing off that fantasy why don’t you promote realistic solutions like making the fund grow better and be more cost effective?

I'll even meet you half way.

So here is my proposal......

Allow people to opt-out of social security. Cut that tax in half, and everyone that opts-out of social security, still pays 5% of their check into retirement, but instead of into social security, it can go into any private retirement fund of their choice.

Because here's the real point.

Social security is going broke. Doesn't matter what you have to say about poor people, and old people, and so on, and fairness, and how people won't be responsible in saving for retirement.

None of that matter. Math doesn't change. Math says social security will go broke.

So we need a replacement, whether you believe it, or not. Whether you want social security to change or not... it will.

It will either change when the country implodes from default... or it will change because we stopped the country from going broke.

The only thing opting out will do is kill it quicker. Some thing with Obamacare. These programs only work with mass participation. We need to improve how the program invests and how the fund grows. We need to lower medical costs and run things more efficiently.

 

[Slade3200]

I don’t... my mother has both and I help her manage her medical and finances. I agree neither is perfect and both could use improvement on many levels. But let me ask... what if none of those existed? Would your neighbor that you helped out be able to afford care with zero coverage? What would she do?

With zero coverage and not believing in the false promises of the government will be there to take care of you in your old age? I'd like to believe she would have planned things out better and not had the frustrations she did have. She was a glorious old hag of italian decent, who grew up with the belief that social security would be therefor the elderly and help take care of them. It wasn't enough. She worked 50 someodd years, 30 with Northrup Gruman, and very little to show for it at the end.
She died last October 2nd, and it was a sad, sad day. I hope she is able to give Francis Perkins a whole earful.
I guess I shouldn't pick on him alone, there have been enough cherry picking bullshit done by bothsides since he devised it to fuck it all up.

Sorry for your loss... but let’s take your theory a step further and say that a percentage of people do as you say and without the safety net decide to do the responsible thing and save for retirement and medical expenses... there is still going to be a percentage that doesn’t, right? That’s millions of people that couldn’t afford or have the discipline to save for their golden years. What happens to these people when they are sick and broke?

Paint me as a bad guy/heartless here all you want, but at some point it either has to be fixed, or it will go bankrupt. I have been one of those people who pushed off preparing for the future. Many a time it was, "ahh, I'll do it later" just to finally realize that later was always just that later. So, I started small and started paying off credit cards, decided I didn't need a new car every 4 to 5 years, paid off those vehicles and started putting that money aside, got my kids into college, and make sure they take the responsibility to do the right thing. I took the responsibility to take care of me and mine. I took care of my own house and those around me. Yes, my taxes go toward those programs, and specifically social security is taken out as well. However, before I go off on a complete tangent, we are all forced (through our paycheck deductions) to participate. Yet the return on investment just doesn't seem to be there. What happens to those that don't prepare? Right here and now, they will get the care the hospitals deem them to warrant per what they can get paid. Whether that be strictly through medicare/caid or if supplemental insurance is involved or if the individual patient can pay out of pocket.
What did people do before social security and medicare? I have no idea, I wasn't there, but I'm willing to bet it was a whole hell of a lot cheaper that what it is now; dollar for adjusted dollar.
We used to be a nation based on self reliance. Then the government stepped in, and we allowed it.

I’m sorry but I just don’t think that answer is good enough. You should research and see what happened to our elderly before social security and Medicare. Understand the effects it had on standard of living and our society. And then really think through what happens to the millions of elderly people who get sick and can’t afford care or didn’t save enough to retire. Think about what happens to those millions of people and how that impacts our nation...

Ok, you don't think personal responsibility and taking care of your own is the right way to do it? That's you.
You'll notice I haven't been waiting with baited breathe for each and every one of your replies. There's a reason for that. Today has been a full day. Fixed a plumbing issue this morning in a customer's kitchen, got a call because someone else's ac was blowing mixed air, but that was an easy fix, just had to actually put the air duct on the vent properly. And this evening I spent on other taskings before doing my paperwork. Gotta stay legal and shit, ya know...
But, I digress.
Not everyone has the same work ethic, drive nor ambition to take care of themselves or theirs. I get it. What I don't get is where and why did it become my issue because Ralph Rottencrotch decided to tune out and bake his brain on meth to the point he's drawing ss disability because of his choices. People who harm themselves in such a manner shouldn't be your issue nor mine.
As to those who don't think ahead for themselves, and plan accordingly, why should you and I have to bolster their standard of living? Am I my brother's keeper? No comma I am not period
The elderly that I am most pained for are those such as my neighbor, paid in for over 50 years, stopped working at 70 because her knees just wouldn't hold out anymore and she got bumpkiss for the amount of money she paid in. Moved onto medicare and thought it would be a good thing even though she had to change doctors but still..... Then the prescriptions came....
Moving on...
Had social security been left alone and allowed to do what it was initially meant to do, I probably would be more accepting of it. However, its been pushed into the general fund and now we get the fear mongering from both left and right that it's bankrupting us. No, misusing and putting it in the general fund has allowed it to be another form of tax for spenadaholics to use as they so please. It's a wasted argument to say otherwise. ANDYLUSION, I believe it was posted what ss started out as and what its going rate is now. Kind of like a real long term bait and switch, with all sorts of laws to make it legal.... Legal, but not morally right.

The thing is, I agree with much of what you said about personal responsibility and the problems with these government programs. But I don’t agree that other people’s problems don’t spill over to the rest of society. When old people get sick and suffer it should hurt your soul, the burden usually falls to their family and friends, people go broke, they get desperate, crime rises, those around them suffer... it’s a domino effect and most importantly it doesn’t reflect American values which I take pride in. Things like taking care of our poor, sick and elderly. There is a ton of waste in government it when it comes to our protection and taking care of the sick, poor and elderly, those are at the top of my priority list. I’m open to ways to do things differently, I’m not pushing for the status quo. But I think we need to be talking about smart ideas and not as much of the partisan piss fights

 

[WheelieAddict]

Still waiting for the irresponsible tax cuts that supposedly pay for themselves to come to fruition. Oh wait they did, the deficit is climbing sky high. And suddenly supposed deficit hawks that supposedly care about the deficit yet voted for the reckless tax bill come out of the woodwork and suddenly care. Like asshole rand paul who voted for the reckless tax bill, but suddenly cares about fiscal responsibility when 911 first responders health care are on the line. Republicans with their fake fiscal responsibility can all go fuck themselves, especially rand paul, I hope his neighbor beats his candy ass again.

 

[DamnDude]

With zero coverage and not believing in the false promises of the government will be there to take care of you in your old age? I'd like to believe she would have planned things out better and not had the frustrations she did have. She was a glorious old hag of italian decent, who grew up with the belief that social security would be therefor the elderly and help take care of them. It wasn't enough. She worked 50 someodd years, 30 with Northrup Gruman, and very little to show for it at the end.
She died last October 2nd, and it was a sad, sad day. I hope she is able to give Francis Perkins a whole earful.
I guess I shouldn't pick on him alone, there have been enough cherry picking bullshit done by bothsides since he devised it to fuck it all up.

Sorry for your loss... but let’s take your theory a step further and say that a percentage of people do as you say and without the safety net decide to do the responsible thing and save for retirement and medical expenses... there is still going to be a percentage that doesn’t, right? That’s millions of people that couldn’t afford or have the discipline to save for their golden years. What happens to these people when they are sick and broke?

Paint me as a bad guy/heartless here all you want, but at some point it either has to be fixed, or it will go bankrupt. I have been one of those people who pushed off preparing for the future. Many a time it was, "ahh, I'll do it later" just to finally realize that later was always just that later. So, I started small and started paying off credit cards, decided I didn't need a new car every 4 to 5 years, paid off those vehicles and started putting that money aside, got my kids into college, and make sure they take the responsibility to do the right thing. I took the responsibility to take care of me and mine. I took care of my own house and those around me. Yes, my taxes go toward those programs, and specifically social security is taken out as well. However, before I go off on a complete tangent, we are all forced (through our paycheck deductions) to participate. Yet the return on investment just doesn't seem to be there. What happens to those that don't prepare? Right here and now, they will get the care the hospitals deem them to warrant per what they can get paid. Whether that be strictly through medicare/caid or if supplemental insurance is involved or if the individual patient can pay out of pocket.
What did people do before social security and medicare? I have no idea, I wasn't there, but I'm willing to bet it was a whole hell of a lot cheaper that what it is now; dollar for adjusted dollar.
We used to be a nation based on self reliance. Then the government stepped in, and we allowed it.

I’m sorry but I just don’t think that answer is good enough. You should research and see what happened to our elderly before social security and Medicare. Understand the effects it had on standard of living and our society. And then really think through what happens to the millions of elderly people who get sick and can’t afford care or didn’t save enough to retire. Think about what happens to those millions of people and how that impacts our nation...

Ok, you don't think personal responsibility and taking care of your own is the right way to do it? That's you.
You'll notice I haven't been waiting with baited breathe for each and every one of your replies. There's a reason for that. Today has been a full day. Fixed a plumbing issue this morning in a customer's kitchen, got a call because someone else's ac was blowing mixed air, but that was an easy fix, just had to actually put the air duct on the vent properly. And this evening I spent on other taskings before doing my paperwork. Gotta stay legal and shit, ya know...
But, I digress.
Not everyone has the same work ethic, drive nor ambition to take care of themselves or theirs. I get it. What I don't get is where and why did it become my issue because Ralph Rottencrotch decided to tune out and bake his brain on meth to the point he's drawing ss disability because of his choices. People who harm themselves in such a manner shouldn't be your issue nor mine.
As to those who don't think ahead for themselves, and plan accordingly, why should you and I have to bolster their standard of living? Am I my brother's keeper? No comma I am not period
The elderly that I am most pained for are those such as my neighbor, paid in for over 50 years, stopped working at 70 because her knees just wouldn't hold out anymore and she got bumpkiss for the amount of money she paid in. Moved onto medicare and thought it would be a good thing even though she had to change doctors but still..... Then the prescriptions came....
Moving on...
Had social security been left alone and allowed to do what it was initially meant to do, I probably would be more accepting of it. However, its been pushed into the general fund and now we get the fear mongering from both left and right that it's bankrupting us. No, misusing and putting it in the general fund has allowed it to be another form of tax for spenadaholics to use as they so please. It's a wasted argument to say otherwise. ANDYLUSION, I believe it was posted what ss started out as and what its going rate is now. Kind of like a real long term bait and switch, with all sorts of laws to make it legal.... Legal, but not morally right.

The thing is, I agree with much of what you said about personal responsibility and the problems with these government programs. But I don’t agree that other people’s problems don’t spill over to the rest of society. When old people get sick and suffer it should hurt your soul, the burden usually falls to their family and friends, people go broke, they get desperate, crime rises, those around them suffer... it’s a domino effect and most importantly it doesn’t reflect American values which I take pride in. Things like taking care of our poor, sick and elderly. There is a ton of waste in government it when it comes to our protection and taking care of the sick, poor and elderly, those are at the top of my priority list. I’m open to ways to do things differently, I’m not pushing for the status quo. But I think we need to be talking about smart ideas and not as much of the partisan piss fights

Slade3200, we do have common ground. Where our paths diverge apparently is just past the personal responsibility point, as I see it.
Short and sweet. When my time comes to pull social security, I will do so. Not because I want to but because I paid into it. However, for me, it will be mostly mad money, to be played with as I see fit.
Being retired military and paying for Tricare will be my main source of health insurance.
I get what you are saying about the less fortunate. I do, and despite coming across as uncaring, that's just not the whole truth. Going back to the well of "my neighbor" her name was Mary, by the way, paid in for 50 plus years. She finally stopped working at 72. The poor dear had an abdominal aneurysm discovered only after she quit working. I will not sit here and tell you medicare wouldn't fix it for her, but the stipulations they asked of her were very much displeasing to her. (Lose weight, stop smoking, and others... She did stop smoking for the surgery only to have other issues pop up to prevent her from getting it fixed) She got the run around until she said screw it, I'll let my doctor deal with it.
That was 4 years before she died.... So, my own little personal ancedote with her and other extended family members has left me with little to no faith in medicare. Another id posted that he had someone get a knee replacement in about a month... Good, it worked for that person, but far to many of our sick and elderly are not getting the return on investment they have made through our government.
How to fix it... My own opinion is that Social security needs to be removed from the general fund and all funds from social security that were used elsewhere (infrastructure, sexual harrassment funding, congressional pay raises or whatever other bullshit it was used for ) be immediately placed back in the fund. All future ss witholding immediately go to that fund and are not touched for anything other than a dispersment check to those that have paid in.
Fix the fraud waste and abuse within the system.
For every ss disability pensioner out there, re verify that they 1. Actually deserve it, and 2. Aren't gaming the system.
I've seen veterans at VA who should be drawing ss disability but are working where as Johnny Jackseed is getting it because he's depressed and only 24. Now before any of you jump the shark here, no, I'm not trying to say debilitating depression isn't a real thing, what I am saying is this. Most people recover from it, but said Johnny is smoking weed and playing games all day long claiming bad things when there is actually nothing wrong with him.
Fix the fraud.... Hell's Bells, I don't even want those that are caught defrauding the system to go to jail. I want them to face reality and go do something... Push a lawn mower, pick up trash, paint a fence, wash a car, trim a tree, GO TO SCHOOL or even a trade school and support yourself. Shit got off on a tangent again.

Getting back on track, I'm sure the number of people on ssd is quite enormous, and you can't necessarily check every single person. However, you wouldn't need to if profiling was done. You don't run down the quadraplegic when the seemingly healthly 24 year old is standing next to you.
Medicare... Ffs, what a damn boondoggle...
Simply stated, someone smarter than me has to get a group of people together smarter than they are to unfuck that mess.
I will say this, instead of pissing and moaning about who our President is, maybe a 25 million dollar investigation into why medicare doesn't work the way it was supposed to would have been a better investment. Christ, that is a total shitshow there.
Friends and famy should be depended on when it comes to our loved ones. OUR loved ones.
Bad things happen to good people, its a fact of life, good things happen to bad people. Its a fucked up world, but its ours. I've pulled the vigils for many a family member. My family has come together in times of despair and we pulled each other through, that's what family does. Should it affect to a point where whole families (plural) go broke taking care of a member, then there are charitable foundations to ask for assistance. Many, many charities, churches, civic organizations and communities.
I'm gonna let the American values comment pass as of right now, as I'm not sure if you meant that as a left handed compliment to me or not. 22 plus years of Military service should speak for itself.
I'll end with this, if an able bodied person is capable of working, then they should be working. Not gaming the system, not sucking at the government teat, not wasting your tax dollars and my tax dollars just because they can. We have enough problems without the unethical, illegal fraud waste and abuse within the system. Start there and work the way around

 

[Slade3200]

Sorry for your loss... but let’s take your theory a step further and say that a percentage of people do as you say and without the safety net decide to do the responsible thing and save for retirement and medical expenses... there is still going to be a percentage that doesn’t, right? That’s millions of people that couldn’t afford or have the discipline to save for their golden years. What happens to these people when they are sick and broke?

Paint me as a bad guy/heartless here all you want, but at some point it either has to be fixed, or it will go bankrupt. I have been one of those people who pushed off preparing for the future. Many a time it was, "ahh, I'll do it later" just to finally realize that later was always just that later. So, I started small and started paying off credit cards, decided I didn't need a new car every 4 to 5 years, paid off those vehicles and started putting that money aside, got my kids into college, and make sure they take the responsibility to do the right thing. I took the responsibility to take care of me and mine. I took care of my own house and those around me. Yes, my taxes go toward those programs, and specifically social security is taken out as well. However, before I go off on a complete tangent, we are all forced (through our paycheck deductions) to participate. Yet the return on investment just doesn't seem to be there. What happens to those that don't prepare? Right here and now, they will get the care the hospitals deem them to warrant per what they can get paid. Whether that be strictly through medicare/caid or if supplemental insurance is involved or if the individual patient can pay out of pocket.
What did people do before social security and medicare? I have no idea, I wasn't there, but I'm willing to bet it was a whole hell of a lot cheaper that what it is now; dollar for adjusted dollar.
We used to be a nation based on self reliance. Then the government stepped in, and we allowed it.

I’m sorry but I just don’t think that answer is good enough. You should research and see what happened to our elderly before social security and Medicare. Understand the effects it had on standard of living and our society. And then really think through what happens to the millions of elderly people who get sick and can’t afford care or didn’t save enough to retire. Think about what happens to those millions of people and how that impacts our nation...

Ok, you don't think personal responsibility and taking care of your own is the right way to do it? That's you.
You'll notice I haven't been waiting with baited breathe for each and every one of your replies. There's a reason for that. Today has been a full day. Fixed a plumbing issue this morning in a customer's kitchen, got a call because someone else's ac was blowing mixed air, but that was an easy fix, just had to actually put the air duct on the vent properly. And this evening I spent on other taskings before doing my paperwork. Gotta stay legal and shit, ya know...
But, I digress.
Not everyone has the same work ethic, drive nor ambition to take care of themselves or theirs. I get it. What I don't get is where and why did it become my issue because Ralph Rottencrotch decided to tune out and bake his brain on meth to the point he's drawing ss disability because of his choices. People who harm themselves in such a manner shouldn't be your issue nor mine.
As to those who don't think ahead for themselves, and plan accordingly, why should you and I have to bolster their standard of living? Am I my brother's keeper? No comma I am not period
The elderly that I am most pained for are those such as my neighbor, paid in for over 50 years, stopped working at 70 because her knees just wouldn't hold out anymore and she got bumpkiss for the amount of money she paid in. Moved onto medicare and thought it would be a good thing even though she had to change doctors but still..... Then the prescriptions came....
Moving on...
Had social security been left alone and allowed to do what it was initially meant to do, I probably would be more accepting of it. However, its been pushed into the general fund and now we get the fear mongering from both left and right that it's bankrupting us. No, misusing and putting it in the general fund has allowed it to be another form of tax for spenadaholics to use as they so please. It's a wasted argument to say otherwise. ANDYLUSION, I believe it was posted what ss started out as and what its going rate is now. Kind of like a real long term bait and switch, with all sorts of laws to make it legal.... Legal, but not morally right.

The thing is, I agree with much of what you said about personal responsibility and the problems with these government programs. But I don’t agree that other people’s problems don’t spill over to the rest of society. When old people get sick and suffer it should hurt your soul, the burden usually falls to their family and friends, people go broke, they get desperate, crime rises, those around them suffer... it’s a domino effect and most importantly it doesn’t reflect American values which I take pride in. Things like taking care of our poor, sick and elderly. There is a ton of waste in government it when it comes to our protection and taking care of the sick, poor and elderly, those are at the top of my priority list. I’m open to ways to do things differently, I’m not pushing for the status quo. But I think we need to be talking about smart ideas and not as much of the partisan piss fights

Slade3200, we do have common ground. Where our paths diverge apparently is just past the personal responsibility point, as I see it.
Short and sweet. When my time comes to pull social security, I will do so. Not because I want to but because I paid into it. However, for me, it will be mostly mad money, to be played with as I see fit.
Being retired military and paying for Tricare will be my main source of health insurance.
I get what you are saying about the less fortunate. I do, and despite coming across as uncaring, that's just not the whole truth. Going back to the well of "my neighbor" her name was Mary, by the way, paid in for 50 plus years. She finally stopped working at 72. The poor dear had an abdominal aneurysm discovered only after she quit working. I will not sit here and tell you medicare wouldn't fix it for her, but the stipulations they asked of her were very much displeasing to her. (Lose weight, stop smoking, and others... She did stop smoking for the surgery only to have other issues pop up to prevent her from getting it fixed) She got the run around until she said screw it, I'll let my doctor deal with it.
That was 4 years before she died.... So, my own little personal ancedote with her and other extended family members has left me with little to no faith in medicare. Another id posted that he had someone get a knee replacement in about a month... Good, it worked for that person, but far to many of our sick and elderly are not getting the return on investment they have made through our government.
How to fix it... My own opinion is that Social security needs to be removed from the general fund and all funds from social security that were used elsewhere (infrastructure, sexual harrassment funding, congressional pay raises or whatever other bullshit it was used for ) be immediately placed back in the fund. All future ss witholding immediately go to that fund and are not touched for anything other than a dispersment check to those that have paid in.
Fix the fraud waste and abuse within the system.
For every ss disability pensioner out there, re verify that they 1. Actually deserve it, and 2. Aren't gaming the system.
I've seen veterans at VA who should be drawing ss disability but are working where as Johnny Jackseed is getting it because he's depressed and only 24. Now before any of you jump the shark here, no, I'm not trying to say debilitating depression isn't a real thing, what I am saying is this. Most people recover from it, but said Johnny is smoking weed and playing games all day long claiming bad things when there is actually nothing wrong with him.
Fix the fraud.... Hell's Bells, I don't even want those that are caught defrauding the system to go to jail. I want them to face reality and go do something... Push a lawn mower, pick up trash, paint a fence, wash a car, trim a tree, GO TO SCHOOL or even a trade school and support yourself. Shit got off on a tangent again.

Getting back on track, I'm sure the number of people on ssd is quite enormous, and you can't necessarily check every single person. However, you wouldn't need to if profiling was done. You don't run down the quadraplegic when the seemingly healthly 24 year old is standing next to you.
Medicare... Ffs, what a damn boondoggle...
Simply stated, someone smarter than me has to get a group of people together smarter than they are to unfuck that mess.
I will say this, instead of pissing and moaning about who our President is, maybe a 25 million dollar investigation into why medicare doesn't work the way it was supposed to would have been a better investment. Christ, that is a total shitshow there.
Friends and famy should be depended on when it comes to our loved ones. OUR loved ones.
Bad things happen to good people, its a fact of life, good things happen to bad people. Its a fucked up world, but its ours. I've pulled the vigils for many a family member. My family has come together in times of despair and we pulled each other through, that's what family does. Should it affect to a point where whole families (plural) go broke taking care of a member, then there are charitable foundations to ask for assistance. Many, many charities, churches, civic organizations and communities.
I'm gonna let the American values comment pass as of right now, as I'm not sure if you meant that as a left handed compliment to me or not. 22 plus years of Military service should speak for itself.
I'll end with this, if an able bodied person is capable of working, then they should be working. Not gaming the system, not sucking at the government teat, not wasting your tax dollars and my tax dollars just because they can. We have enough problems without the unethical, illegal fraud waste and abuse within the system. Start there and work the way around

I meant nothing as a back handed compliment. I respect your service to our country and can tell that you have a compassionate heart by the way you speak of your neighbor Mary, that was my grandmothers name btw, one of the best lady’s to ever walk this earth. Anyways, I do find perhaps more common ground with you than may appear on the surface. I know people milking disability and gaming the system and it makes me sick. I agree that fraud should be rooted out and our social welfare system needs reforms to be more resource and action driven. Personal responsibility should be a focus and priority for all... taught through our school system and from each government program lending assistance. I also think you have some fine ideas about the social security funds. I wish I could say that I knew enough about how it’s invested to give a proper response and lend further insight on ideas but I haven’t dug that deep yet. perhaps I’ll try and carve out some time to do so in the near future. It’s late and I need to crash but I do appreciate the conversation and look forward to the next. Not all of us on the “Left” are coming from a bad place. Take care

 

[Andylusion]

The bottom line is that left-wing ideology is built on lies and myths.

Asking why a left-winger lies, is like asking why a snake bites.

It's what they do.

Honestly if they didn't lie, they wouldn't be able to rationalize their support for thousands of terrible policies that have never worked in human history.

Social security and Medicare, both progressive policies and both very good for the people of this country... the VA, a progressive government program and very good for our vets. Many more out there but we don’t have all night... you should stop with the partisan rhetoric

So lets look at the facts, rather than your opinion.

Trustees Report Summary

Social Security’s total cost is projected to exceed its total income (including interest) in 2020.​

When Social Security was created, it was a 1% tax. Now it is a 15% tax, and still going broke. Not only that but the average monthly benefit from Social Security is barely $1,400 a month, meaning 50% of all recipients are getting less than that.

That same amount of money flushed down the toilet of Social Security, if invested in real assets, would result in most people with a half million, to a million or more by retirement. Instead they are living in poverty, most being forced to work menial jobs to make ends meet, and still bankrupting the country.

The people of Greece said the same thing about their pension system, until their country imploded.

You people are a joke. You keep everyone impoverished at the low income levels with your 15% tax, and then keep them impoverished in their old age with your McJob level Social Security benefit, and then are ignorant enough to think you are helping people. You guys are like the abusive husband, hitting his wife over saying "You should be thanking me!".

Your whole premise is that citizens would all invest their social security savings if the fund didn’t exist. You know that’s not the case so instead of playing off that fantasy why don’t you promote realistic solutions like making the fund grow better and be more cost effective?

No, that is not my premise at all.

What you do with your money, is your business. If you intend to blow all your cash, and be poor, then that should be the results of your choices.

My premise is called "freedom". It is the idea that people should be allowed to make that choice for themselves.

See under my system, you can be rich or be poor, according to the choices you make.

Under your system you are enslaved to an ideology that virtually guarantees poverty. Yes, a poverty that will barely keep you alive... but poverty nonetheless.

Under my system, if you choose to be in poverty, that's your choice. But you can choose to be rich. $100 a month into a 401K, or IRA, by the time you retire, will be a million dollars or close to it.

That 15% tax on minimum wage, is $180 a month, and for that tax into social security, you'll end up with poverty. Social Security costs almost double, and you go from retiring a millionaire, to retiring in utter poverty.

Now again, you can choose to never save a penny, and end up in poverty, but at least you have the choice. And spare me that people would die without social security, because right now as things are now, old people are already forced into low income jobs to make ends meet.

And ironically they lose part of, or even all of, their social security if they go work a job. And even more ironic, they end up paying social security tax on that low-income job they have, to pay for benefits that they are denied getting, because they have a job.

Only in left-wing socialist hellish world, does this make sense.

Ok well let’s kist play out your freedom method. You know millions of people with not save enough money to retire and be able to afford the medical care that they need. That is already the case with the “safety nets” we have in place. Now with no nets what happens?

They now have to fend for themselves and how does that affect our society as a whole. Please explain?

First off, you can say that until the end of time.... and it still doesn't change the fact that both systems are going broke, as I provided direct concrete mathematical evidence of.

You need to come to this discussion from the perspective of "It will change, the question is only how", instead of "We can keep doing this until the end of time, and never crash like Greece did!".

Now if you don't like my proposal... great, come up with one of your own.

Second, I know people... I specially have met people, that told me the reason they are not saving for retirement, is because they'll collect social security. They openly said that is their plan.

When you say that you know people won't save for retirement, no you don't. You are looking at how things are now, where people have been told by idiotic left-wingers, that government will take care of them. They are acting according to the idiocy they have been taught.

In times past, before Social Security, everyone saved for retirement. I know they did, because we have record they did. No one was just dying in the streets.

And here's a crazy thought... how about family take care of family? Moreover, we have plenty of charities for elderly people. Why not encourage that.

If nothing else, then I already proposed a solution, that being mandated saving for retirement. Allow people to opt-out of social security, and cut the tax in half, and allow people to choose what retirement fund they wish to invest in.

Third, If there is anything that has to change, it would be the health care system.

We have to get government out of health care, and the price of care will fall.

 

[mikegriffith1]

Still waiting for the irresponsible tax cuts that supposedly pay for themselves to come to fruition.

Sigh. . . . The Treasury Department has reported that individual income tax collections for fiscal year 2018 totaled $1.7 trillion--that's up $14 billion from fiscal 2017, and an all-time high.

Trump Tax-Cut Results: Federal Revenues Hit All-Time Highs | Investor's Business Daily

And, so far, federal revenue for fiscal year 2019 is up from last year's revenue.

Monthly Budget Review for March 2019 | Congressional Budget Office

Just on a point of logic and policy, why should tax cuts have to pay for themselves? Whose money is it anyway? If a majority of Americans elect representatives who vote to make the government take less of our money, why should such legislation have to pay for itself? And what about how tax cuts "pay for themselves" in the budgets of American families who see their take-home pay rise by $50 to $500 per month?

What is "irresponsible" about letting people keep more of their own money? Is it "irresponsible" for the Democrats to keep forcing the Republicans to agree to more and more spending and to keep jacking up the deficit and the debt?

 

[RealDave]

Most liberals continue to claim that the Trump tax cuts were "mainly for millionaires and billionaires," "a giveaway to the uber-rich," etc., etc. But anyone can look at the tax tables and see with their own eyes that the top bracket a much smaller rate cut than did the middle-income brackets. The second and third brackets got a cut of 3 percentage points each, which equaled a 20% rate cut for the second bracket and 12% rate cut for the third bracket. The fourth bracket got a cut of 4 percentage points, or 14%. The top bracket--the one for people who earn $600K and above--got a cut of 2.6 percentage points, or just 6.6%. Don't believe me? Here are the 2017 and 2018 tax tables, which anyone can Google:

2017
Tax Bracket Tax Rate
$0.00+ 10%
$18,650+ 15%
$75,900+ 25%
$153,100+ 28%
$233,350+ 33%
$416,700+ 35%
$470,700+ 39.6%

2018 (under Trump’s tax cuts)
Tax Bracket Tax Rate
$0.00+ 10%
$19,050+ 12%
$77,400+ 22%
$165,000+ 24%
$315,000+ 32%
$400,000+ 35%
$600,000+ 37%

What's more, notice that the fifth bracket got a cut of only 1 percentage point, and that the sixth bracket got no cut at all.

Also, keep in mind that the rich got hit particularly hard by the tax cut bill's $10K cap on state and local taxes (SALT). Someone who owns a house worth, say, $2.0 million, will pay $26K just in property taxes, based on the nationwide median average of 1.3% for property taxes. Someone with an income of, say, $2 million per year will pay $100,000 in state income taxes, and that's assuming a low state income tax rate of 5%. So a rich person who makes $2 million per year and owns a house worth $2 million lost $116,000 in tax breaks because of the Trump tax cuts.

Finally, if any liberals cite the cut in the corporate income tax rate as justification for their false description of the Trump tax cuts as "mainly helping millionaires and billionaires," I would point out two important facts that debunk this nonsense:

One, the corporate income tax rate was cut to 21%, which put it in the range of the corporate income tax rates in Europe and Asia, which range between 18% and 21%. So this was an entirely sensible reduction that put our companies in a better position to compete with foreign companies.

Two, as part of the rate cut from 35% to 21%, the Republicans imposed a one-time mandatory tax on American corporate money parked overseas: 8% on illiquid/reinvested assets and 15.5% on cash and cash equivalents, which amounted to a tax of about $2.6 trillion on U.S. business profits held overseas.

Those in the top bracket get all the tax cuts. Are you stupid? Do you need me to explain this to you?

So, Republicans rewarded US corporations who dodged their income tax for years.

 

[Terri4Trump]

Most liberals continue to claim that the Trump tax cuts were "mainly for millionaires and billionaires," "a giveaway to the uber-rich," etc., etc. But anyone can look at the tax tables and see with their own eyes that the top bracket a much smaller rate cut than did the middle-income brackets. The second and third brackets got a cut of 3 percentage points each, which equaled a 20% rate cut for the second bracket and 12% rate cut for the third bracket. The fourth bracket got a cut of 4 percentage points, or 14%. The top bracket--the one for people who earn $600K and above--got a cut of 2.6 percentage points, or just 6.6%. Don't believe me? Here are the 2017 and 2018 tax tables, which anyone can Google:

2017
Tax Bracket Tax Rate
$0.00+ 10%
$18,650+ 15%
$75,900+ 25%
$153,100+ 28%
$233,350+ 33%
$416,700+ 35%
$470,700+ 39.6%

2018 (under Trump’s tax cuts)
Tax Bracket Tax Rate
$0.00+ 10%
$19,050+ 12%
$77,400+ 22%
$165,000+ 24%
$315,000+ 32%
$400,000+ 35%
$600,000+ 37%

What's more, notice that the fifth bracket got a cut of only 1 percentage point, and that the sixth bracket got no cut at all.

Also, keep in mind that the rich got hit particularly hard by the tax cut bill's $10K cap on state and local taxes (SALT). Someone who owns a house worth, say, $2.0 million, will pay $26K just in property taxes, based on the nationwide median average of 1.3% for property taxes. Someone with an income of, say, $2 million per year will pay $100,000 in state income taxes, and that's assuming a low state income tax rate of 5%. So a rich person who makes $2 million per year and owns a house worth $2 million lost $116,000 in tax breaks because of the Trump tax cuts.

Finally, if any liberals cite the cut in the corporate income tax rate as justification for their false description of the Trump tax cuts as "mainly helping millionaires and billionaires," I would point out two important facts that debunk this nonsense:

One, the corporate income tax rate was cut to 21%, which put it in the range of the corporate income tax rates in Europe and Asia, which range between 18% and 21%. So this was an entirely sensible reduction that put our companies in a better position to compete with foreign companies.

Two, as part of the rate cut from 35% to 21%, the Republicans imposed a one-time mandatory tax on American corporate money parked overseas: 8% on illiquid/reinvested assets and 15.5% on cash and cash equivalents, which amounted to a tax of about $2.6 trillion on U.S. business profits held overseas.

The Democrats have always lied about tax policies ever since I voted for the first time. Democrats don't have a clue when it comes to the purpose for formulating correct policy.

Conservatives formulate policy for the result of growth of the economy.
Democrats formulate policy for the result taking from the rich and giving to lower income, which actually hurts economic growth, not to mention the fact that they actually end up bringing in less revenue with higher rates.

JFK actually understood that lower rates bring in higher revenues. He said: “It is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high and tax revenues are too low and the soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now ... Cutting taxes now is not to incur a budget deficit, but to achieve the more prosperous, expanding economy which can bring a budget surplus.”

He may have been the last Democrat to ever get it right.

Those in the top bracket get all the tax cuts. Are you stupid? Do you need me to explain this to you?

As usual you are an ignorant lying sack of shit

 

[mikegriffith1]

Most liberals continue to claim that the Trump tax cuts were "mainly for millionaires and billionaires," "a giveaway to the uber-rich," etc., etc. But anyone can look at the tax tables and see with their own eyes that the top bracket a much smaller rate cut than did the middle-income brackets. The second and third brackets got a cut of 3 percentage points each, which equaled a 20% rate cut for the second bracket and 12% rate cut for the third bracket. The fourth bracket got a cut of 4 percentage points, or 14%. The top bracket--the one for people who earn $600K and above--got a cut of 2.6 percentage points, or just 6.6%. Don't believe me? Here are the 2017 and 2018 tax tables, which anyone can Google:

2017
Tax Bracket Tax Rate
$0.00+ 10%
$18,650+ 15%
$75,900+ 25%
$153,100+ 28%
$233,350+ 33%
$416,700+ 35%
$470,700+ 39.6%

2018 (under Trump’s tax cuts)
Tax Bracket Tax Rate
$0.00+ 10%
$19,050+ 12%
$77,400+ 22%
$165,000+ 24%
$315,000+ 32%
$400,000+ 35%
$600,000+ 37%

What's more, notice that the fifth bracket got a cut of only 1 percentage point, and that the sixth bracket got no cut at all.

Also, keep in mind that the rich got hit particularly hard by the tax cut bill's $10K cap on state and local taxes (SALT). Someone who owns a house worth, say, $2.0 million, will pay $26K just in property taxes, based on the nationwide median average of 1.3% for property taxes. Someone with an income of, say, $2 million per year will pay $100,000 in state income taxes, and that's assuming a low state income tax rate of 5%. So a rich person who makes $2 million per year and owns a house worth $2 million lost $116,000 in tax breaks because of the Trump tax cuts.

Finally, if any liberals cite the cut in the corporate income tax rate as justification for their false description of the Trump tax cuts as "mainly helping millionaires and billionaires," I would point out two important facts that debunk this nonsense:

One, the corporate income tax rate was cut to 21%, which put it in the range of the corporate income tax rates in Europe and Asia, which range between 18% and 21%. So this was an entirely sensible reduction that put our companies in a better position to compete with foreign companies.

Two, as part of the rate cut from 35% to 21%, the Republicans imposed a one-time mandatory tax on American corporate money parked overseas: 8% on illiquid/reinvested assets and 15.5% on cash and cash equivalents, which amounted to a tax of about $2.6 trillion on U.S. business profits held overseas.

Those in the top bracket get all the tax cuts. Are you stupid? Do you need me to explain this to you?

So, Republicans rewarded US corporations who dodged their income tax for years.

HUH? Did you not bother to read the OP? Your nonsense is refuted in the OP. The middle-income brackets got the biggest rate cuts by far in the Trump tax cuts, as I prove in the OP and as anyone can confirm by looking at the tax tables (which I quote in the OP). And, the rich lost a huge tax break because the Trump tax cuts capped SALT deductions at $10K. Read the OP before you reply to it next time.

 

[DamnDude]

Paint me as a bad guy/heartless here all you want, but at some point it either has to be fixed, or it will go bankrupt. I have been one of those people who pushed off preparing for the future. Many a time it was, "ahh, I'll do it later" just to finally realize that later was always just that later. So, I started small and started paying off credit cards, decided I didn't need a new car every 4 to 5 years, paid off those vehicles and started putting that money aside, got my kids into college, and make sure they take the responsibility to do the right thing. I took the responsibility to take care of me and mine. I took care of my own house and those around me. Yes, my taxes go toward those programs, and specifically social security is taken out as well. However, before I go off on a complete tangent, we are all forced (through our paycheck deductions) to participate. Yet the return on investment just doesn't seem to be there. What happens to those that don't prepare? Right here and now, they will get the care the hospitals deem them to warrant per what they can get paid. Whether that be strictly through medicare/caid or if supplemental insurance is involved or if the individual patient can pay out of pocket.
What did people do before social security and medicare? I have no idea, I wasn't there, but I'm willing to bet it was a whole hell of a lot cheaper that what it is now; dollar for adjusted dollar.
We used to be a nation based on self reliance. Then the government stepped in, and we allowed it.

I’m sorry but I just don’t think that answer is good enough. You should research and see what happened to our elderly before social security and Medicare. Understand the effects it had on standard of living and our society. And then really think through what happens to the millions of elderly people who get sick and can’t afford care or didn’t save enough to retire. Think about what happens to those millions of people and how that impacts our nation...

Ok, you don't think personal responsibility and taking care of your own is the right way to do it? That's you.
You'll notice I haven't been waiting with baited breathe for each and every one of your replies. There's a reason for that. Today has been a full day. Fixed a plumbing issue this morning in a customer's kitchen, got a call because someone else's ac was blowing mixed air, but that was an easy fix, just had to actually put the air duct on the vent properly. And this evening I spent on other taskings before doing my paperwork. Gotta stay legal and shit, ya know...
But, I digress.
Not everyone has the same work ethic, drive nor ambition to take care of themselves or theirs. I get it. What I don't get is where and why did it become my issue because Ralph Rottencrotch decided to tune out and bake his brain on meth to the point he's drawing ss disability because of his choices. People who harm themselves in such a manner shouldn't be your issue nor mine.
As to those who don't think ahead for themselves, and plan accordingly, why should you and I have to bolster their standard of living? Am I my brother's keeper? No comma I am not period
The elderly that I am most pained for are those such as my neighbor, paid in for over 50 years, stopped working at 70 because her knees just wouldn't hold out anymore and she got bumpkiss for the amount of money she paid in. Moved onto medicare and thought it would be a good thing even though she had to change doctors but still..... Then the prescriptions came....
Moving on...
Had social security been left alone and allowed to do what it was initially meant to do, I probably would be more accepting of it. However, its been pushed into the general fund and now we get the fear mongering from both left and right that it's bankrupting us. No, misusing and putting it in the general fund has allowed it to be another form of tax for spenadaholics to use as they so please. It's a wasted argument to say otherwise. ANDYLUSION, I believe it was posted what ss started out as and what its going rate is now. Kind of like a real long term bait and switch, with all sorts of laws to make it legal.... Legal, but not morally right.

The thing is, I agree with much of what you said about personal responsibility and the problems with these government programs. But I don’t agree that other people’s problems don’t spill over to the rest of society. When old people get sick and suffer it should hurt your soul, the burden usually falls to their family and friends, people go broke, they get desperate, crime rises, those around them suffer... it’s a domino effect and most importantly it doesn’t reflect American values which I take pride in. Things like taking care of our poor, sick and elderly. There is a ton of waste in government it when it comes to our protection and taking care of the sick, poor and elderly, those are at the top of my priority list. I’m open to ways to do things differently, I’m not pushing for the status quo. But I think we need to be talking about smart ideas and not as much of the partisan piss fights

Slade3200, we do have common ground. Where our paths diverge apparently is just past the personal responsibility point, as I see it.
Short and sweet. When my time comes to pull social security, I will do so. Not because I want to but because I paid into it. However, for me, it will be mostly mad money, to be played with as I see fit.
Being retired military and paying for Tricare will be my main source of health insurance.
I get what you are saying about the less fortunate. I do, and despite coming across as uncaring, that's just not the whole truth. Going back to the well of "my neighbor" her name was Mary, by the way, paid in for 50 plus years. She finally stopped working at 72. The poor dear had an abdominal aneurysm discovered only after she quit working. I will not sit here and tell you medicare wouldn't fix it for her, but the stipulations they asked of her were very much displeasing to her. (Lose weight, stop smoking, and others... She did stop smoking for the surgery only to have other issues pop up to prevent her from getting it fixed) She got the run around until she said screw it, I'll let my doctor deal with it.
That was 4 years before she died.... So, my own little personal ancedote with her and other extended family members has left me with little to no faith in medicare. Another id posted that he had someone get a knee replacement in about a month... Good, it worked for that person, but far to many of our sick and elderly are not getting the return on investment they have made through our government.
How to fix it... My own opinion is that Social security needs to be removed from the general fund and all funds from social security that were used elsewhere (infrastructure, sexual harrassment funding, congressional pay raises or whatever other bullshit it was used for ) be immediately placed back in the fund. All future ss witholding immediately go to that fund and are not touched for anything other than a dispersment check to those that have paid in.
Fix the fraud waste and abuse within the system.
For every ss disability pensioner out there, re verify that they 1. Actually deserve it, and 2. Aren't gaming the system.
I've seen veterans at VA who should be drawing ss disability but are working where as Johnny Jackseed is getting it because he's depressed and only 24. Now before any of you jump the shark here, no, I'm not trying to say debilitating depression isn't a real thing, what I am saying is this. Most people recover from it, but said Johnny is smoking weed and playing games all day long claiming bad things when there is actually nothing wrong with him.
Fix the fraud.... Hell's Bells, I don't even want those that are caught defrauding the system to go to jail. I want them to face reality and go do something... Push a lawn mower, pick up trash, paint a fence, wash a car, trim a tree, GO TO SCHOOL or even a trade school and support yourself. Shit got off on a tangent again.

Getting back on track, I'm sure the number of people on ssd is quite enormous, and you can't necessarily check every single person. However, you wouldn't need to if profiling was done. You don't run down the quadraplegic when the seemingly healthly 24 year old is standing next to you.
Medicare... Ffs, what a damn boondoggle...
Simply stated, someone smarter than me has to get a group of people together smarter than they are to unfuck that mess.
I will say this, instead of pissing and moaning about who our President is, maybe a 25 million dollar investigation into why medicare doesn't work the way it was supposed to would have been a better investment. Christ, that is a total shitshow there.
Friends and famy should be depended on when it comes to our loved ones. OUR loved ones.
Bad things happen to good people, its a fact of life, good things happen to bad people. Its a fucked up world, but its ours. I've pulled the vigils for many a family member. My family has come together in times of despair and we pulled each other through, that's what family does. Should it affect to a point where whole families (plural) go broke taking care of a member, then there are charitable foundations to ask for assistance. Many, many charities, churches, civic organizations and communities.
I'm gonna let the American values comment pass as of right now, as I'm not sure if you meant that as a left handed compliment to me or not. 22 plus years of Military service should speak for itself.
I'll end with this, if an able bodied person is capable of working, then they should be working. Not gaming the system, not sucking at the government teat, not wasting your tax dollars and my tax dollars just because they can. We have enough problems without the unethical, illegal fraud waste and abuse within the system. Start there and work the way around

I meant nothing as a back handed compliment. I respect your service to our country and can tell that you have a compassionate heart by the way you speak of your neighbor Mary, that was my grandmothers name btw, one of the best lady’s to ever walk this earth. Anyways, I do find perhaps more common ground with you than may appear on the surface. I know people milking disability and gaming the system and it makes me sick. I agree that fraud should be rooted out and our social welfare system needs reforms to be more resource and action driven. Personal responsibility should be a focus and priority for all... taught through our school system and from each government program lending assistance. I also think you have some fine ideas about the social security funds. I wish I could say that I knew enough about how it’s invested to give a proper response and lend further insight on ideas but I haven’t dug that deep yet. perhaps I’ll try and carve out some time to do so in the near future. It’s late and I need to crash but I do appreciate the conversation and look forward to the next. Not all of us on the “Left” are coming from a bad place. Take care

Not all on the right are bigoted troglodytes. Thanks for the clarification, sometimes it's hard to tell the tone on a message board. Have a blessed day.

 

[DBA]

Most liberals continue to claim that the Trump tax cuts were "mainly for millionaires and billionaires," "a giveaway to the uber-rich," etc., etc. But anyone can look at the tax tables and see with their own eyes that the top bracket a much smaller rate cut than did the middle-income brackets. The second and third brackets got a cut of 3 percentage points each, which equaled a 20% rate cut for the second bracket and 12% rate cut for the third bracket. The fourth bracket got a cut of 4 percentage points, or 14%. The top bracket--the one for people who earn $600K and above--got a cut of 2.6 percentage points, or just 6.6%. Don't believe me? Here are the 2017 and 2018 tax tables, which anyone can Google:

2017
Tax Bracket Tax Rate
$0.00+ 10%
$18,650+ 15%
$75,900+ 25%
$153,100+ 28%
$233,350+ 33%
$416,700+ 35%
$470,700+ 39.6%

2018 (under Trump’s tax cuts)
Tax Bracket Tax Rate
$0.00+ 10%
$19,050+ 12%
$77,400+ 22%
$165,000+ 24%
$315,000+ 32%
$400,000+ 35%
$600,000+ 37%

What's more, notice that the fifth bracket got a cut of only 1 percentage point, and that the sixth bracket got no cut at all.

Also, keep in mind that the rich got hit particularly hard by the tax cut bill's $10K cap on state and local taxes (SALT). Someone who owns a house worth, say, $2.0 million, will pay $26K just in property taxes, based on the nationwide median average of 1.3% for property taxes. Someone with an income of, say, $2 million per year will pay $100,000 in state income taxes, and that's assuming a low state income tax rate of 5%. So a rich person who makes $2 million per year and owns a house worth $2 million lost $116,000 in tax breaks because of the Trump tax cuts.

Finally, if any liberals cite the cut in the corporate income tax rate as justification for their false description of the Trump tax cuts as "mainly helping millionaires and billionaires," I would point out two important facts that debunk this nonsense:

One, the corporate income tax rate was cut to 21%, which put it in the range of the corporate income tax rates in Europe and Asia, which range between 18% and 21%. So this was an entirely sensible reduction that put our companies in a better position to compete with foreign companies.

Two, as part of the rate cut from 35% to 21%, the Republicans imposed a one-time mandatory tax on American corporate money parked overseas: 8% on illiquid/reinvested assets and 15.5% on cash and cash equivalents, which amounted to a tax of about $2.6 trillion on U.S. business profits held overseas.

Those in the top bracket get all the tax cuts. Are you stupid? Do you need me to explain this to you?

So, Republicans rewarded US corporations who dodged their income tax for years.

You can't be this dense. The undisputed facts regarding the tax cuts refute your claim. The top did not get "all" the tax cuts. That is simply false.