Zone1 Separation of Church and State?

[dudmuck]

I mean can anyone imagine an atheist agreeing with "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

sure, but does that include women?

 

[TruthNotBS]

There was nothing disingenuous at all. All I did was ask questions designed to test the subjective use of the word "many."

However what is disingenuous is you not acknowledging that the founders all believed in a creating, moralistic and providential creator who is the source of natural rights. So as much as you want to make this about their disagreement with Christianity, you fail to acknowledge the core beliefs of Christianity; A creator who created existence, is moralistic, is providential and is the source of natural rights.

I never claimed many of the founders were atheists, I asserted that many of them would be considered heretics by the same traditional, mainstream Evangelical Christians who are constantly telling us the Founding Fathers were Christians. Many of them, weren't Christians according to the standard set by the very people constantly telling us that they were. I never claimed that many of the Founding Fathers were atheists, denying the existence of a higher power, that's your straw man polemic against me.

 

[BreezeWood]

Don't you have a communist rally you need to attend somewhere?

unlike you they decided not to live in the desert ... of forgeries and fallacies.

- the earlier stage for setting history on the path of goodness from evil ... the u s constitution.

what latter happened at the turn of that century precipitated from their behavior, religious zealots - they took upon themselves to make for the better - try and accept the deserved fate as exacted than whine for decades over being set in place and try to learn from that draconian period as all the rest if at all possible.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

i. Separation of Church and State? 240823 {post•960}. ding Aug’24 Ssocas: I mean can anyone imagine an atheist agreeing with "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." dvng 240823 Ssocas00960


ii. Separation of Church and State? 240824 {post•964}.

NotfooledbyW Aug’24 Ssocas: I mean can anyone imagine a Catholic agreeing with;

CHRISTIANITY IS HARMFUL AND COERCIVE. “The purest system of morals ever before preached to man (the teachings of Jesus) has been adulterated and sophisticated by artificial constructions into a mere contrivance to filch wealth and power.” – letter to Samuel Kercheval, January 19, 1810


GOD IS NOT A TRINITY. “It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one…. on, and they would catch no more flies.” – letter to John Adams, August 22, 1813


CATHOLIC RELIGION IS ARTIFICIALLY CONTRIVED But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests. Sweep away their gossamer fabrics of factitious religion, and they would catch no more flies.” – letter to John Adams, August 22, 1813



CHRISTIANITY IS HOCUS PICUS. “The hocus-pocus phantasm of a god like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs.” – letter to James Smith, December 8, 1822.

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[ding]

sure, but does that include women?

Or blacks or Native Americans for that matter? In time it most certainly did. Change - good or bad - is usually gradual; incremental; done in steps.

 

[ding]

I never claimed many of the founders were atheists, I asserted that many of them would be considered heretics by the same traditional, mainstream Evangelical Christians who are constantly telling us the Founding Fathers were Christians. Many of them, weren't Christians according to the standard set by the very people constantly telling us that they were. I never claimed that many of the Founding Fathers were atheists, denying the existence of a higher power, that's your straw man polemic against me.

You are making unimportant distinctions. The important distinction is a belief in a moralistic, providential creator who is the source of natural rights.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

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The Republican Party’s Separation of Mind from Reason as a result of the Rightward Catholic Culture of Saint Ding

You are making unimportant distinctions

The GreasedPig is in the room!

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xix. Roe v. Wade getting overturned!! 220720 {post•3740}. NotfooledbyW Aug’23 Vrvwgo questioned Saint _Ding: IF religion is banned by you from this discussion then all your pro-life propaganda goes away. nfbw 220720 Vrvwgo03740

xx. Roe v. Wade getting overturned!! 220721 {post•3742}. ding Jul’23 Srvwgo: The right to life is not a religious issue. dvng 220721 Srvwgo03742

xxi. Separation of Church and State? 240823 {post•957}. ding Aug’24 Ssocas: How would a militant atheist say that? dvng 240823 Vsocas00957

xxii. Separation of Church and State? 240823 {post•913}. ding Aug’24 Ssocas said America’s not-Christian Founders: …. hated atheists. dvng 240824 Ssocas00913

xxiii. Separation of Church and State? 240812 {post•301}. NotfooledbyW Aug’24 Vsocas: Thomas Jefferson was farther away from the Catholic Church than any American atheist of today. nfbw 240812 Vsocas00301

xxiv. Separation of Church and State? 240822 {post•914}. TruthNotBS Aug’24 Vsocas: But many of the well-known Founding Fathers weren't religious Christians at all. They would be condemned today as heretics or apostates. trthntbs 240822 Vsocs00914


xxv. Separation of Church and State? 240824 {post•668}

NotfooledbyW Aug.24 Vsocas inserted Haselby Jul’17 excerpt :

"The Origins of American Religious Nationalism." By Sam Haselby*

There was even prevalent, open hostility to Christianity, in the form of anti-Catholicism, in Revolutionary-era America. The American Colonies were deeply, profoundly anti-Catholic. Anti-Catholicism was one of the few things the diverse Colonies shared. Colonists were horrified when Britain, with the 1774 Quebec Act, recognized Quebec’s Catholics as deserving equal protection of the law. The Continental Congress protested, claiming that Catholicism as a religion that had “deluged” Britain in blood and “dispersed impiety, bigotry, persecution, murder and rebellion through every part of the world.”

*Sam Haselby is a historian, an editor at Aeon Magazine and the author of "The Origins of American Religious Nationalism."July 4, 2017



xxvi. Separation of Church and State? 240824 {post•967}

NotfooledbyW Aug.24 Vsocas: With respect to paragraph xxii. There is no evidence that I am aware of that Thomas Jefferson or any other of the pro secularist founders hated atheists. Growing up in a Protestant Church State they certainly were vehemently opposed to the Catholic Church to a point of hatred in varying degree. Many historians believe the 1774 Quebec Act was monumental for converting Loyalists to Rebels willing to risk going to war against the King.

With respect to paragraph xxi. We need Saint_Ding to define what distinguishes an atheist from a militant atheist. One fine example of an atheist is Ronald Reagan Jr. I cannot be made to think of RRjr to be a militant atheist. I wonder if Saint_Ding can provide an example of a militant atheist by historical record during Jeffersons’s lifetime. And then it would be nice if Saint_Ding could provide any true example of a militant atheist living in our midst today.

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[BreezeWood]

You are making unimportant distinctions. The important distinction is a belief in a moralistic, providential creator who is the source of natural rights.

the natural rights are included in their document is the distinction void of a religion.

that is in part the reason they, who wrote the u s constitution chose deism as a base of reason than the forgeries and fallacies of the then two desert religions.

 

[ding]

the natural rights are included in their document is the distinction void of a religion.

that is in part the reason they, who wrote the u s constitution chose deism as a base of reason than the forgeries and fallacies of the then two desert religions.

Is that what they teach in militant atheist school?

 

[TruthNotBS]

You are making unimportant distinctions. The important distinction is a belief in a moralistic, providential creator who is the source of natural rights.

You're creating strawmen arguments, because I never said they were atheists. Christians often claim they were Christians and that's not necessarily the case. Many, like at least half of them, would be considered heretics due to their Deistic beliefs, their denial of the Trinity doctrine, and divinity of Christ, including being Freemasons. Many, likely more than half of the signers of our Constitution, were Freemasons. Masonic doctrines aren't necessarily in line with Christianity. That's my point, it wasn't that they were atheists, but rather not Christians as many Christians claim.

Our country wasn't really established as a Christian nation, although yes, the founders were in one way or another theists. I never claimed that the signers of the Constitution were all a bunch of atheists. That's your strawman argument.

 

[ding]

You're creating strawmen arguments, because I never said they were atheists. Christians often claim they were Christians and that's not necessarily the case. Many, like at least half of them, would be considered heretics due to their Deistic beliefs, their denial of the Trinity doctrine, and divinity of Christ, including being Freemasons. Many, likely more than half of the signers of our Constitution, were Freemasons. Masonic doctrines aren't necessarily in line with Christianity. That's my point, it wasn't that they were atheists, but rather not Christians as many Christians claim.

Our country wasn't really established as a Christian nation, although yes, the founders were in one way or another theists. I never denied that the signers of the Constitution were all a bunch of atheists. That's your strawman argument.

I never said you said they were atheists. You wanted to show how their beliefs were different than Christians. But the reality is the difference between Christians and Deists is much less than the difference between atheists and Deists. Especially when it comes to the belief that unalienable rights come from the Creator who is moral and providential.

 

[TruthNotBS]

I never said you said they were atheists. You wanted to show how their beliefs were different than Christians. But the reality is the difference between Christians and Deists is much less than the difference between atheists and Deists. Especially when it comes to the belief that unalienable rights come from the Creator who is moral and providential.

I demonstrated how many of them weren't really Christians despite what many Christians claim. That was my point. I made my point. I proved that many of the signers, the Founding Fathers, weren't born again, spirit-filled Christians as Christians claim. Your point doesn't undermine anything I said.

 

[Foxfyre]

I demonstrated how many of them weren't really Christians despite what many Christians claim. That was my point. I made my point. I proved that many of the signers, the Founding Fathers, weren't born again, spirit-filled Christians as Christians claim. Your point doesn't undermine anything I said.

The issue of Church and State is not changed by whether the signers were born again spirit filled Christians. The issue is that to a man they all embraced the basic values and concepts of Christianity and incorporated those values and concepts into the Declaration of Independence and our Constitution.

Even Thomas Jefferson, one most associated with the concepts of Deism, has among his certified quotes at Monticello: "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

That does not necessarily mean he accepted Jesus as his personal savior and not a single one of the Founders intended Christianity to be the official state religion. But not one of them rejected basic Christian concepts when it came to the founding of this nation.

 

[ding]

I demonstrated how many of them weren't really Christians despite what many Christians claim. That was my point. I made my point. I proved that many of the signers, the Founding Fathers, weren't born again, spirit-filled Christians as Christians claim. Your point doesn't undermine anything I said.

So then they didn't believe in a Creator? They didn't believe the Creator was moralistic? They didn't believe the Creator was providential? They didn't believe that natural rights were from the Creator?

You keep brining up unimportant distinctions. If you can't understand how the important agreements undermines your argument, then you are more BS than truth. Because if you believed those things you and I would be talking about the same Creator nevermind our religious affiliation or label.

 

[BreezeWood]

The issue is that to a man they all embraced the basic values and concepts of Christianity and incorporated those values and concepts into the Declaration of Independence and our Constitution.

they were not misogynists, did not believe the false commandments of the liar moses, the hereditary idolatry of abraham et al the many false pretenses, fallacies and forgeries found on nearly every page of the prevailing bibles used by those religions at that time.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

that is exactly what their amendment states written into the u s constitution. they were protecting deism etc by the inclusion of free excise thereof.

they understood fully the draconian history and nature of the desert religions, their bibles - and created a secular gov't.

 

[BreezeWood]

They didn't believe that natural rights were from the Creator?

you continue to use your worn out lies as though doing so will somehow change the fabric that is the source of creation on earth ...

the deist understood the natural rights exist as fragile to be secured unlike christians that use facsimiles to persecute and victimize the innocent in altering their actual purpose - such as the desert commandments than those of the natural world.

 

[ding]

you continue to use your worn out lies as though doing so will somehow change the fabric that is the source of creation on earth ...

the deist understood the natural rights exist as fragile to be secured unlike christians that use facsimiles to persecute and victimize the innocent in altering their actual purpose - such as the desert commandments than those of the natural world.

No one persecutes like the militant atheists. Your kind is the the greatest threat to liberty and freedom there is.

 

[BreezeWood]

No one persecutes like the militant atheists. Your kind is the the greatest threat to liberty and freedom there is.

you continue to use your worn out lies as though doing so will somehow change the fabric that is the source of creation on earth ...

the desert religions of servitude and denial have no freedoms or liberty - that's what jesus taught, liberation theology, self determination no where found in the 4th century christian bible.

those at the turn of that century who rebelled against the prevailing governance / theology of that time were justified to end the tyranny employed against them.

 

[ding]

the desert religions of servitude and denial have no freedoms or liberty - that's what jesus taught, liberation theology, self determination no where found in the 4th century christian bible.

those at the turn of that century who rebelled against the prevailing governance / theology of that time were justified to end the tyranny employed against them.

Says who? You satanic cult? Your communist comrades?

 

[whutTHEYsay]

The Republican Party’s Separation of Mind from Reason as a result of the Rightward Catholic Culture of Saint Ding

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xxvii. Separation of Church and State?
240825 {post•980}

•¥• Abraham | The First Hebrew Patriarch & Monotheist | Britannica.

NotfooledbyW Aug’24 Vsocas: Abraham was the first Hebrew patriarch and is revered in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. According to the Bible, he was called by God to journey to a new land, where he founded a new nation. •¥• www.britannica.com/video/213453/Top-questions-ans

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xxviii. Roe v. Wade getting overturned!! 220813 {post•4801}. ding Aug’22 Srvwgo: “Because it's OK to kill it before your so called "viability" date? Because it's not really human before that date?” dvng 220813 Srvwgo04801

xxix. Separation of Church and State? 240823 {post•953}. ding Aug’24 Ssocas: you fail to acknowledge the core beliefs of Christianity; dvng 240823 Ssocas00953


xxx. Separation of Church and State? 240825 {post•980}.

NotfooledbyW Aug’24 Vsocas: Apparently Saint_Ding is so close to the Biblical God of Abraham that he has been anointed amongst all those in God’s earthly Kingdom to create his own reality against whomever with here he is having a discussion. And we all must abide by Saint_Ding’s reality so he and the Catholic “creator” god can never be wrong about anything.

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