Zone1 Separation of Church and State?

[BreezeWood]

You claim to not "sin" and rebuke members with quotes such as, "I'm not a sinner, sinner!"

oh, are you related to moses ...

 

[Foxfyre]

Read it again, this time with the emphasis on none-the-less have an equal voice and an equal duty to this secular democracy. . ."

I don't see how that changes the beginning of the sentence. It only adds to it. I was not disputing the part you emphasized. Just the part where you say Christians want a theocracy.

 

[Foxfyre]

Thomas Jefferson and many of his contemporaries understood
that the natural rights of man depended upon teleological considerations.
So viewed, and accepting the premise that man's goal is being
with his Creator for eternity, man has the duty to abide by His will
and directions, because they are necessary to satisfy man's duties.
Jefferson wrote that "the true office is to declare and enforce our
natural rights and duties."24 The existence of natural duties and the
relationship of rights to duties were quite apparent to Jefferson, and
anyone who has studied the man should realize that the only natural
duties Jefferson acknowledged were not to temporal kings, but to
the Creator.
James Madison was even more explicit that the source of rights
exists in man's duty to his Creator. Writing of the unalienable right
of religion in his Memorial and Remonstrance, he stated that the
right is unalienable
"because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards
the creator. It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator
such homeage, and such only, as he believes to be acceptable to
Him. His duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree
of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man
can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be
considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe: And
if a member of Civil Society, who enters into any subordinate
Association, must always do it with a reservation of his duty
to the general authority; much more must every man who becomes
a member of any particular Civil Society, do it with a
saving of his allegiance to the Universal Sovereign." 25
Another leading Virginian, George Mason, was equally clear in
asserting that the obligation of man to his Maker was the source of natural
rights. In 1772 he wrote:
"Now all acts of legislature apparently contrary to natural right
and justice, are, in our laws, and must be in the nature of
things, considered as void. The laws of nature are the laws of
God: A legislature must not obstruct our obedience to him from
whose punishments they cannot protect us. All human constitutions
which contradict His laws, we are in conscience
bound to disobey. Such have been the adjudications of our
courts of justice." 26
The imperative necessity of understanding ends and duties in
order to delineate natural rights was appreciated not only by Messrs.
Jefferson, Madison, and Mason, but also by Virginians generally in
our formative period. The members of the Virginia convention that
ratified the United States Constitution saw and stated that the natural
rights of conscience and religion are predicated upon an obligation
to God. They contended that it was because of "the duty which we
owe to our Creator," that "all men have an equal, natural and unalienable
right to the free exercise of religion according to the dictates
of conscience." 27

I don't see how that contradicts anything I've posted.

 

[Foxfyre]

were even that true, your definition of church what exactly is that definition without the repudiation of judaism as taught by jesus as well liberation theology, self determination those people in the 1st century gave their lives for.

the paradoxal religion of a church is what truly should have an establishment clause of its own. your cone heads are an example kkk.

Jesus did not repudiate Judaism. He repudiated Jews who had corrupted and distorted the most important aspects of Judaism. And he introduced new concepts in application of the Law as well as redemption/salvation. Otherwise he was a good Jew using Jewish scriptures and practicing Jewish traditions. As to the rest of your post I have no idea what you're saying.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

All of the above, plus as Paul mentions in his Letter to the Corinthians that God's covenants are written on the our hearts. God is love and goodness, perfect, and these are our models, the targets. God is also free and he created human beings in his image and so we, too, are designed for freedom. People of faith are taught to discern the will of God and to follow it. To guide us we have the Commandments and the Beatitudes to guide us along with these questions: What will be the most loving? What is ethically better? What allows for the most freedom? This means searching our hearts.

So, you are assuming from your religious instruction! That's all you had to say. You don't know for certain, as I suspected.

 

[Meriweather]

I don't see how that changes the beginning of the sentence. It only adds to it. I was not disputing the part you emphasized. Just the part where you say Christians want a theocracy.

And some do, but certainly not all. Those who do, as US Citizens, still have a duty/responsibility, to be involved in our secular government. In other words, just because someone may prefer a theocracy, in this country our duty is to uphold the separation of Church and State, and still be involved in government. All have a voice, a duty, a responsibility.

 

[Meriweather]

So, you are assuming from your religious instruction! That's all you had to say. You don't know for certain, as I suspected.

Are you afraid to consider exactly what I said?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

- that you did not understand from the beginning - genius.

No. I am not a genius. My IQ was tested at 136. Thanks! A man has understand his limitations. Something you obviously eschew.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Are you afraid to consider exactly what I said?

I understand you believe that your understanding is the only one possible, and that is a bit arrogant and self-serving if you ask me.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

Thomas Jefferson and many of his contemporaries understood
that the natural rights of man depended upon teleological considerations.
So viewed, and accepting {accepted} the premise that man's goal is being with his Creator for eternity

In an intimate note to his dying wife, we see that later in life Jefferson does not believe there is eternal life after death.

I get how that private note found later represents the highest homage to the creator of nature. It is pure love. I don’t think born again type Christians. can get it.

Sorry, Saint_Ding you’ve blocked your mind out of understanding rational theism.


Did Jefferson Believe in the Afterlife?

Finally, there is also the prose from Laurence Sterne’s Tristram Shandy that Jefferson copies to a sheet of paper. “And every time I kiss thy hand to bid adieu, every absence which follows it, are preludes to that eternal separation which we are shortly to make.” This is the second half of a passage on the folded paper—the first half written in the writing of Jefferson’s wife—which contained a lock of Martha Jefferson’s hair. This reference to “eternal separation,” written to his wife, perhaps moribund when composed, is persuasive.

Such letters are weighty evidence of doubt concerning life after death.

 

[BreezeWood]

Jesus did not repudiate Judaism. He repudiated Jews who had corrupted and distorted the most important aspects of Judaism. And he introduced new concepts in application of the Law as well as redemption/salvation.

who else would that be than moses and abraham - whatever before abraham was judaism is then what jesus taught and those in the 1st century who gave their lives for the original religion of antiquity ... self determination is not the desert religions of servitude and denial (redemption/salvation) and no jesus did not teach - redemption/salvation - is a joke.

what then is the definition of judaism -

- are you a member of the fraternal order of the kkk.

 

[Picaro]

Jesus did not repudiate Judaism. He repudiated Jews who had corrupted and distorted the most important aspects of Judaism. And he introduced new concepts in application of the Law as well as redemption/salvation. Otherwise he was a good Jew using Jewish scriptures and practicing Jewish traditions. As to the rest of your post I have no idea what you're saying.

Correct. Modern 'Judaism' hadn't been invented when Jesus was alive; it came along after the Bar Kokhba Revolt in the 2nd Century A.D. He repudiated the post-Ezra Temple scams and advocated a return to the real Torah of Moses, the written one, and ignored the 'Oral Torah' fiction.

 

[BreezeWood]

Correct. Modern 'Judaism' hadn't been invented when Jesus was alive; it came along after the Bar Kokhba Revolt in the 2nd Century A.D. He repudiated the post-Ezra Temple scams and advocated a return to the real Torah of Moses, the written one, and ignored the 'Oral Torah' fiction.

the 1st century events are the repudiation of judaism's false commandments, hereditary idolatry ...

prove yourself not a liar picaro - provide the tablets claimed etched in the heavens by the liar moses w/ their false commandments - prove what those commandments are, etched on the tablets - and the heredity idolatry of abraham.

jesus taught liberation theology, self determination the very reasons for humanities initial goal for admission to the everlasting as their own free spirit.

 

[Foxfyre]

And some do, but certainly not all. Those who do, as US Citizens, still have a duty/responsibility, to be involved in our secular government. In other words, just because someone may prefer a theocracy, in this country our duty is to uphold the separation of Church and State, and still be involved in government. All have a voice, a duty, a responsibility.

I think a Christian's duty is to know the history and principles that undergird what is the United States of America and vote his/her conscience to elect leaders who understand and embrace that history and those principles. Other than that, our duty is to live our lives as much as we are able as God directs us and only a very few of us will be called to be involved in government.

The rest of us, in governing ourselves, make the country work to the benefit of all. Government cannot do that but government as the Constitution intended can make sure the laws, rules, regulations all facilitate that and otherwise stays out of our way and lets us do it.

But I do not think there is any separation of Church and State as the Church is as much a part of the State as any other people or entities. There are only limitations/restrictions on what powers are allowed both in the First Amendment.

 

[Foxfyre]

who else would that be than moses and abraham - whatever before abraham was judaism is then what jesus taught and those in the 1st century who gave their lives for the original religion of antiquity ... self determination is not the desert religions of servitude and denial (redemption/salvation) and no jesus did not teach - redemption/salvation - is a joke.

what then is the definition of judaism -

- are you a member of the fraternal order of the kkk.

When you can write a statement like a normal person and ask a sensible question I'll respond. Until then I will wish you a most pleasant day.

 

[Foxfyre]

Correct. Modern 'Judaism' hadn't been invented when Jesus was alive; it came along after the Bar Kokhba Revolt in the 2nd Century A.D. He repudiated the post-Ezra Temple scams and advocated a return to the real Torah of Moses, the written one, and ignored the 'Oral Torah' fiction.

Somewhat though the Torah itself was not written down as the events happened but much later from oral tradition. It is the competence and integrity of that oral tradition that in my opinion gives me confidence in the manuscripts that make up the Bible.

 

[Meriweather]

I understand you believe that your understanding is the only one possible

Then you don't understand me at all. I speak for myself, not for all others. And, I speak from my own experiences which, naturally, are the only experiences I have.

 

[Picaro]

Somewhat though the Torah itself was not written down as the events happened but much later from oral tradition. It is the competence and integrity of that oral tradition that in my opinion gives me confidence in the manuscripts that make up the Bible.

the 1st century events are the repudiation of judaism's false commandments, hereditary idolatry ...

prove yourself not a liar picaro - provide the tablets claimed etched in the heavens by the liar moses w/ their false commandments - prove what those commandments are, etched on the tablets - and the heredity idolatry of abraham.

jesus taught liberation theology, self determination the very reasons for humanities initial goal for admission to the everlasting as their own free spirit.

Prove you're not a fairy dust sniffer and lunatic.

 

[Picaro]

Somewhat though the Torah itself was not written down as the events happened but much later from oral tradition. It is the competence and integrity of that oral tradition that in my opinion gives me confidence in the manuscripts that make up the Bible.

I'm not sure you're talking about the same 'Oral Torah' I am, but yes, the Torah of the OT is the real one, from Moses.

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm not sure you're talking about the same 'Oral Torah' I am, but yes, the Torah of the OT is the real one, from Moses.

But Moses did not write down the words as the events were happening. There are Biblical scholars who think he may have left a line or two at various shrines but that in my opinion is just speculation. The Torah records Moses death. (Deuteronomy 34) He certainly didn't write that. The Torah is a collection of manuscripts written to describe Moses' life and mission and how the Law came to be. Who actually wrote down the words that make up the manuscripts we don't know.

I don't say this to shake anybody's faith and say it as my personal opinion that is without any authority as a Biblical expert. And those who want to believe Moses' wrote those manuscripts himself, okay. I wasn't there. I can't say they're wrong.

The one thing I am absolutely certain of is that the manuscripts are of God whether or not everything in them is absolutely true as written and I believe God communicates with us through those scriptures. I cannot see how they all survived through all the dedicated attempts to eradicate them and the whole Bible remains the best selling book in the world today if God's hand wasn't in it.