Zone1 Separation of Church and State?

[Meriweather]

That might take you all the way on finding common ground with Deists?

As a whole, Deists deny Christ's divinity and don't believe in God's intervention.

 

[Donald H]

As a whole, Deists deny Christ's divinity and don't believe in God's intervention.

I'm not an authority on Deism so I looked it up.

Dictionary​

Data from Oxford Languages

Look it up


de·ism
[ˈdēˌizəm, ˈdāˌizəm]
noun

1. belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. The term is used chiefly of an intellectual movement of the 17th and 18th centuries that accepted the existence of a creator on the basis of reason but rejected belief in a supernatural deity who interacts with humankind. Compare with theism
2. 
   
3. 
   
4. Does any of that match with your beliefs?
   
   
   
5. 
   
6. (the numbers are a forum glitch)

 

[Meriweather]

Does any of that match with your beliefs?

I believe God does interact with us.

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm not an authority on Deism so I looked it up.

Dictionary​

Data from Oxford Languages

Look it up


de·ism
[ˈdēˌizəm, ˈdāˌizəm]
noun

1. belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. The term is used chiefly of an intellectual movement of the 17th and 18th centuries that accepted the existence of a creator on the basis of reason but rejected belief in a supernatural deity who interacts with humankind. Compare with theism
2. 
   
3. 
   
4. Does any of that match with your beliefs?
   
   
   
5. 
   
6. (the numbers are a forum glitch)

This is closer to Spinoza's and Einstein's beliefs who, based on observance, logic and reason, allowed for a theory of intelligent design that has guided the entire process of the creation of the Universe and all that is in it. Neither believed in a personal divine being who interacted with humankind or intervened in other choices/processes.

As Meriweather expressed, Christians, Jews and some other faiths do believe in a Divine Being who interacts and communicates with those He created as well as being the author of intelligent design.

 

[Donald H]

I believe God does interact with us.

I heard your words being in agreement with:

belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe.

Yes/No?

I'm much more interested in your beliefs and my beliefs as an atheist being agreed to in part. Especially your comment on gradual creation being common with gradual evolution.

I know you're mentioned that before but the discussion never did facilitate a discussion by me. Now it does!

And of course, your rejecting the bit about 'creation in the blink of his eye.

I'm learning that there aren't just a few different Christian belief systems, there are dozens and perhaps hundreds. Atheism is just one of them now.

I don't accept others who do no more than just say they are Christians and nothing more, as being Christians. Therefore we may never be able to agree on how many Americans are Christians.

I was baptized. Do you include me as being a Christian atheist?

 

[Donald H]

This is closer to Spinoza's and Einstein's beliefs who, based on observance, logic and reason, allowed for a theory of intelligent design that has guided the entire process of the creation of the Universe and all that is in it. Neither believed in a personal divine being who interacted with humankind or intervened in other choices/processes.

As Meriweather expressed, Christians, Jews and some other faiths do believe in a Divine Being who interacts and communicates with those He created as well as being the author of intelligent design.

I.D. has been proven to be wrong and it's discredited and disallowed by law in America.
That's my starting position.

 

[Foxfyre]

I.D. has been proven to be wrong and it's discredited and disallowed by law in America.
That's my starting position.

How can something that cannot be proven be proven wrong? Faulty reasoning there much? And any law that would disallow any theory or concept to be considered, discussed, acknowledged is really REALLY bad and flawed and even unconstitutional law.

 

[Meriweather]

I was baptized. Do you include me as being a Christian atheist?

Going strictly by definitions, I consider a Christian someone who believes in and follows Christ. I consider atheists those who have no belief in God. But as far as my own definition, I consider you a Prodigal Son, which means when we see each other in heaven, I'll get to see God running up to you, giving you a hug, a feast, and putting a ring on you. (I'll be there clapping.)

 

[alang1216]

The gospel of Mark was written such that the reader was told at the beginning about the divinity of Christ but the Apostles are unaware of his divinity. Mark was written specifically around asking and answering the question of who is Jesus. So figure out the purpose of each book and you'll be able to answer those questions yourself.

So we agree that the purpose of each book is theology, not history.

It's idiotic for you to believe you know a religion that is not your own better than me. The only point I care to discuss with you is your explanation for the 40 miracle performed by Jesus. He's either exactly who he claimed he is or he isn't. He didn't leave you any other choice. So you can argue that he existed and others fabricated a preposterous narrative that was centered on him performing a shit load of miracles which included healing the sick, defeating death and controlling nature, or that he really did those things.

So which is it? Because each option would need to be tested in different ways.

He is exactly who he claims to be, however, he is not who others claim he is.

 

[alang1216]

And I answered it. I didn't avoid it. That's what you have been doing for over a page now.

You did not answer my question. I asked who was responsible for the conspiracy and fraud surrounding Santa Claus. I await your answer.

 

[BreezeWood]

And whatever courts ruled that it was illegal were in error. I think those capable of critical thinking, logic and reason do not look to the courts for what is right and wrong.

nothing like writing your own bible ...

 

[Foxfyre]

nothing like writing your own bible ...

Like you do?

 

[BreezeWood]

As a whole, Deists deny Christ's divinity and don't believe in God's intervention.

so did jesus, their belief was self determination - liberation theology.

 

[alang1216]

What would it prove if it were? What would it prove if it weren't?

Would it result in some other scenario than he performed those miracles or he didn't? Because if he did then he's who he said he was. And if he didn't then you need to explain how such a crazy narrative was an accident or intentional.

If all the sources agree, that would be a case of multiple attestation.

In biblical studies, the criterion of multiple attestation is a tool used to determine if certain sayings or actions of Jesus in the New Testament are from the Historical Jesus. It is also known as the criterion of independent attestation or the cross-section method. The criterion states that a passage is more likely to be authentic if it appears in two or more independent sources. The more independent witnesses that report an event or saying, the better.​

All the sources report that Jesus was crucified so it is pretty clear that event is as historically accurate as we can be. On the other hand, the two birth narratives are not so their historical accuracy it probably very poor. Where do the reports of the miracles fall?

 

[BreezeWood]

Like you do?

ours is the heavenly, spoken religion of antiquity ... the triumph of good vs evil, to acquire final judgement for admission to the everlasting - what jesus taught in the 1st century.

 

[Donald H]

Going strictly by definitions, I consider a Christian someone who believes in and follows Christ.

I'm glad about that.

I consider atheists those who have no belief in God. But as far as my own definition, I consider you a Prodigal Son, which means when we see each other in heaven,

That's kind of you to say.

I'll get to see God running up to you, giving you a hug, a feast, and putting a ring on you. (I'll be there clapping.)

Am I to interpret that as you thinking that I'm a decent person?
I think I've already suggested the same for you.

I think we can take that as progress!

Allow me to tell you a little story:: The movie, 'The Gods Must be Crazy' that I saw must not have been the link I posted. I didn't see the scenes that were in the trailer and the one I saw by VonDanikan wasn't a comedy..

In addition to the coke bottle scene, there was featured an African tribe putting a dog on a platform on top of a 20-30 foot pole, to be left to die in the sun. I don't mind admitting that I cried. I even have difficulty telling the story to you, 45 years later. Funny how that is with humans isn't it!

I think that became the final demonstration of religious beliefs that made me become an atheist.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

i. No Christian can vote for Kamala 240729 {post•164). ding Jul’24 Snccvf admits he is a bad Catholic: But what you fail to understand is that I am on a mission to seek truth. God is truth. God is love. God is logic. And all who worship him do so in spirit and truth. dvng 240729 Snccvf00164


ii. No Christian can vote for Kamala 240814 {post•477).

NotfooledbyW Aug’24 Vnccvf: Why does your mission Saint_Ding to seek truth have bearing on the civil affairs of law abiding citizens who are minding their own business and don’t give a hoot about whatever truth, as a bad Catholic you think you will find?

#477

 

[Donald H]

How can something that cannot be proven be proven wrong? Faulty reasoning there much? And any law that would disallow any theory or concept to be considered, discussed, acknowledged is really REALLY bad and flawed and even unconstitutional law.

See the results of the Dover school board vs. Kitzmiller trial on ID being taught in the schools.

Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Meriweather]

Am I to interpret that as you thinking that I'm a decent person?

Yes. I truly think that of everyone. At a very young age I was taught to see the spark of divinity in people. There was only one instance where I met a young man...something was just off. We are brothers and sisters.

Allow me to tell you a little story:: The movie, 'The Gods Must be Crazy' that I saw must not have been the link I posted. I didn't see the scenes that were in the trailer and the one I saw by VonDanikan wasn't a comedy..

In addition to the coke bottle scene, there was featured an African tribe putting a dog on a platform on top of a 20-30 foot pole, to be left to die in the sun. I don't mind admitting that I cried. I even have difficulty telling the story to you, 45 years later. Funny how that is with humans isn't it!

I think that became the final demonstration of religious beliefs that made me become an atheist.

Worshiping a coke bottle or sacrificing a dog wouldn't work for me. It is the teachings, the living examples, and the philosophy that points me to a valuable way of living this life. It brings joy. Coke bottles and animals can't do that.

 

[Donald H]

Yes. I truly think that of everyone. At a very young age I was taught to see the spark of divinity in people. There was only one instance where I met a young man...something was just off. We are brothers and sisters.

Worshiping a coke bottle or sacrificing a dog wouldn't work for me.

I don't quite understand why you said that? I can and did feel compassion for the dog, and that didn't diminish any other feeling I had. Would you be any different? I don't think so.

It is the teachings, the living examples, and the philosophy that points me to a valuable way of living this life.

I believe that I live a valuable way of living life too. I think I became a better person after seeing the demonstration of human cruelty, for no other reason than becoming able to understand primitive religious beliefs. Their god demanded the sacrifice.

It brings joy. Coke bottles and animals can't do that.

I don't quite understand why you say that? Would you not be moved by seeing that sort of demonstration of cruelty? It certainly wouldn't take away from your character to include animals as being entitled to be treated humanely.

How could that have anything to do with your belief in your god?

The coke bottle was symbolic to me. If that's not clear to you then I'm happy to explain my logic.

Another story but with no real explanation: I watch a t.v program of an org called 'Hope for Wildlife'. The save the lives of nearly all injured or sick animals, including bats and rats and mice.

They're often questioned on why they do it. Their budget for a year is over $100,000.

I know why they do it. It makes them better persons! They know that and they feel it too!

If there's no point in that for you, then I can't help you to find it.