Russia issues list of demands it says must be met to lower tensions in Europe

[Litwin]

I will post here some video that can help you understand this. And why Russia is desperately trying to normalize relations with the West. But try to think about it, before posting your answer.

+1
translate.google.com
Rotenberg's son has Finnish citizenship and they live there, Lavrov's daughter in New York, Peskov's daughter in Paris - Lisa lives and studies in France, Nikolai's son was tried in Great Britain and spent more than a year in an English prison, his wife owns an apartment in the USA with an area of 126 m2 2. Zolotov's grandson in England, At the Nightingale (telepropagandist) - a villa on Lake Como (not far from Milan), Italy, and a residence permit in the same place ... Malysheva in the USA. Vladimir Zhirinovsky has Spanish citizenship, Igor Lebedev (Zhirinovsky's son) has a US green card, Spanish citizenship and permanent residence in Switzerland, Mikhail Berulava has a Czech residence permit, Irina Rodnina has US citizenship. Gennady Timchenko is a friend of Putin, (one of the "kings of the state order" and the largest exporter of Moscow oil) is a citizen of Finland, his wife and daughter are also. Since 2014, under sanctions, he is forced to live in Moscow. This list can be continued indefinitely ... Do not be lazy to look on the Internet for a list of officials with foreign citizenship. Hair stand on end !! all patriots of the Moscow horde? Or foreign agents?

 

[Litwin]

Russia issues list of demands it says must be met to lower tensions in Europe​

Contentious security guarantees Moscow is seeking include a ban on Ukraine from entering Nato​

Russia issues list of demands it says must be met to lower tensions in Europe

Contentious security guarantees Moscow is seeking include a ban on Ukraine from entering Nato

www.theguardian.com

17 Dec 2021 ~~ By Andrew Roth
Russia has put forward a highly contentious list of security guarantees it says it wants the west to agree to in order to lower tensions in Europe and defuse the crisis over Ukraine, including many elements that have already been ruled out.
The demands include a ban on Ukraine entering Nato and a limit to the deployment of troops and weapons to Nato’s eastern flank, in effect returning Nato forces to where they were stationed in 1997, before an eastward expansion.
The eight-point draft treaty was released by Russia’s foreign ministry as its forces massed within striking distance of Ukraine’s borders. Moscow said ignoring its interests would lead to a “military response” similar to the Cuban missile crisis of 1962.
Vladimir Putin has demanded that the west provide Russia “legal guarantees” of its security. But the Kremlin’s aggressive proposals are likely to be rejected in western capitals as an attempt to formalise a new Russian sphere of influence over eastern Europe.
The demands, spelled out by Moscow in full for the first time, were handed over to the US this week. They include a demand that Nato remove any troops or weapons deployed to countries that entered the alliance after 1997, which would include much of eastern Europe, including Poland, the former Soviet countries of Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, and the Balkan countries.
~Snip~
The demands, spelled out by Moscow in full for the first time, were handed over to the US this week. They include a demand that Nato remove any troops or weapons deployed to countries that entered the alliance after 1997, which would include much of eastern Europe, including Poland, the former Soviet countries of Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, and the Balkan countries.
~Snip~
Russia has massed about 100,000 troops on its side of the border. Joe Biden has warned Putin of “sanctions like he’s never seen” should his troops attack Ukraine. On Thursday, European Union leaders urged Moscow to halt its military buildup and return to talks led by France and Germany.

Commentary:
Joey Xi Bai Dung's great moves since January 2021 have place America and the World in a precarious position. Not only has he driven America into Inflation, given us the Afghanistan debacle, allowed Russia to finish the Nord Stream 2 Pipeline. Now he has given Putin the impetus to threaten Europe with war.
"Moscow said ignoring its interest would lead to a "military response" similar to the Cuban Missile Crisis" of 1962."
It seems that Joey Xi Bai Dung's warning fell on Putin's deaf ears. Putin knows that Joey is weak and unable to follow through with his threat of sanctions and NATO is a farce.
Note that if Putin wins the game of threats with Joey, Europe and NATO, China will take Taiwan without a shot.
Time for Democrats to leave D.C. and let real Americans lead this country....

Uncle Jojo will find a way to screw the USA and fuck up.

 

[Siberian]

why do Russians (including Russians Esay and Litwin) speak in English while using Russian speaking proofs/links?

 

[Litwin]

why do Russians (including Russians Esay and Litwin) speak in English while using Russian speaking proofs/links?

sure, 1917, 1991.

but this time it´ll be the last one

Russiaâs population undergoes largest ever peacetime decline, analysis shows

Analysis finds natural population fell by 997,000 between October 2020 and September 2021 – with Covid cited as principal cause

www.theguardian.com

 

[Doc7505]

sure, 1917, 1991.

but this time it´ll be the last one

Russiaâs population undergoes largest ever peacetime decline, analysis shows

Analysis finds natural population fell by 997,000 between October 2020 and September 2021 – with Covid cited as principal cause

www.theguardian.com

View attachment 579132

~~~~~~
Don't worry about a thing. Joey Xi is here to screw the pooch on this decision. He'll fold just as quickly as Chamberlain did over Czechoslovakia in 1939.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Well, why does any person in the West, even if he looks smart, instantly turns into an idiot when it comes to Russia? It's probably Russia's fault... Russian troops have ALWAYS been in Crimea, since the 1770s of the 18th century and up to the present day. Didn't you know that? . Even when the Germans occupied Crimea for two years, there were Russian partisan detachments there.
And I don't even want to talk about Serbia and its barbaric bombing. It was a crime and whole Goebbels ministries worked and are working to justify this crime.

Yes, I know about Russia and the Crimea. That doesn't mean because you go around to someone's house you can just take it for yourself.

You think people are idiots when it comes to Russia, maybe a lot of people are just idiots. However you're trying to "win" an argument by using emotion.

Serbia deserved what it got. They started the whole thing, they suffered for it.

 

[Silver Cat]

It is not just the sand and dust. It is the things these people live for. They are too used to luxury lifestyle and aren't going to change it for living in wasteland. No one is going to attack Russia, so their source for sweet life will remain untouched.

It is as clear as the day. And I can't imagine you guys don't get that. Whatever the reason is for your posting this nonsense.

You continue to use the 'logic of intentions'. But there is a 'logic of circumstances' and a 'logic of possibilities'. For example, look at Mr. Zelenskiy - Soviet born, Russian-speaking Jew. He afraid of and despise Ukraininan Nazi Collaborants, earlier he begged Putin to take him in Russia. But the Banderlogs are virtually his only working tool. And if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. The only thing that can keep Ukraine independent (in the situation when high quality of life is impossible without cooperation with Russia) - is hatred to Russia and the Neo-Nazi ideology. 'We murder our own citizens because they are Russians and, therefore - incarnated evil'. And there is no other way in the certain circumstances (when the EU don't give enough money to build safe, wealthy, and prosperous 'Alternative Russia').
You want money and prosperity - you must be dependent on somebody (it is Russia on the post-Soviet space)

The absolutely same situation is with Russia. If they want to be independent, they have to use the only tool they have - and this tool is the nuclear weapons. Even if tomorrow, by some kind of miracle, Navalny or Sobchak becomes a President of the Russian Federation, he or she won't be able to change situation. Nobody is going to attack Russia only because of the Russian Nuclear Forces and readiness to use them. So, their policy will be based on the same ideas of the three main types of a Nuclear Deterrence:
1) Deterrence type I - against direct attack against Russia. Based on the conception of Reliable Retaliation.
2) Deterrence type II - against extremely provocative behavior different from direct attack against Russia. Based on the conception of the Credible First Strike Capability, which is based on Counter-Force Strike, ABD and alleviation of consequences.
3) Deterrence type III - against regional, mostly conventional treats. Based on the conception of a Limited Nuclear War capability and Tactical Nuclear Weapon.

Do you think, that Timoshenko, Poroshenko or Zelenskiy want to live in a Neo-Nazi state with the official discrimination of the Russians, Russian culture and Russian language? But they do it, because they have no choice, or, may be, they consider it as a lesser evil.
Putin may love Germany with all his heart, but he won't hesitate to burn it down if it's necessary.

Talking about wastelands... The Russians believe, that they can win a nuclear war against USA by a limited counter-force strike and post-attack coercion. 70% that Biden won't retaliate, 20% - that if he retaliate Russian losses will be lesser one million lives, 10% that losses will be terrible, but acceptable - less than 40 million (and even this is better than a scenario of the American First Strike).

 

[Siberian]

yes, I see a giant crowd of slaves kneeling and listening to their Russian masters.

what is your point?

Litwin, your hopes for disintegration of Russia are in vain. Now Russians constitute about 80% of the Federation (unlike 62% of Whites in the US). Even now quickly depopulating Ukraine provides us with several hundreds of thousands of White, Christian, Russian (or so called Ukrainian) immigrants. After we reunify Ukraine with Russia in coming couple of years, our share will increase even more.

Of course there are muslim regions, but if you had brains you could know that fertility rate drops very fast in Central Asian republics. The time has passed of Soviet care of them, now explosive demography growth is coming to an end.

So, in a couple of decades Central Asia and even North Caucasus will stop to provide us with cheap labor, cheap immigrants - and THIS will be a problem, not influx of Muslims or whatever.

The share of Russians may decline, there will be 70-75% of Russians in the Federation in 50 years or maybe more.
It is a little disappointing, but by that time there will be neither Ukraine nor the USA....

 

[ESay]

You continue to use the 'logic of intentions'. But there is a 'logic of circumstances' and a 'logic of possibilities'. For example, look at Mr. Zelenskiy - Soviet born, Russian-speaking Jew. He afraid of and despise Ukraininan Nazi Collaborants, earlier he begged Putin to take him in Russia. But the Banderlogs are virtually his only working tool. And if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. The only thing that can keep Ukraine independent (in the situation when high quality of life is impossible without cooperation with Russia) - is hatred to Russia and the Neo-Nazi ideology. 'We murder our own citizens because they are Russians and, therefore - incarnated evil'. And there is no other way in the certain circumstances (when the EU don't give enough money to build safe, wealthy, and prosperous 'Alternative Russia').
You want money and prosperity - you must be dependent on somebody (it is Russia on the post-Soviet space)

The absolutely same situation is with Russia. If they want to be independent, they have to use the only tool they have - and this tool is the nuclear weapons. Even if tomorrow, by some kind of miracle, Navalny or Sobchak becomes a President of the Russian Federation, he or she won't be able to change situation. Nobody is going to attack Russia only because of the Russian Nuclear Forces and readiness to use them. So, their policy will be based on the same ideas of the three main types of a Nuclear Deterrence:
1) Deterrence type I - against direct attack against Russia. Based on the conception of Reliable Retaliation.
2) Deterrence type II - against extremely provocative behavior different from direct attack against Russia. Based on the conception of the Credible First Strike Capability, which is based on Counter-Force Strike, ABD and alleviation of consequences.
3) Deterrence type III - against regional, mostly conventional treats. Based on the conception of a Limited Nuclear War capability and Tactical Nuclear Weapon.

Do you think, that Timoshenko, Poroshenko or Zelenskiy want to live in a Neo-Nazi state with the official discrimination of the Russians, Russian culture and Russian language? But they do it, because they have no choice, or, may be, they consider it as a lesser evil.
Putin may love Germany with all his heart, but he won't hesitate to burn it down if it's necessary.

Talking about wastelands... The Russians believe, that they can win a nuclear war against USA by a limited counter-force strike and post-attack coercion. 70% that Biden won't retaliate, 20% - that if he retaliate Russian losses will be lesser one million lives, 10% that losses will be terrible, but acceptable - less than 40 million (and even this is better than a scenario of the American First Strike).

Our discussion reminds me of running around a circle. It has little sense. I think you spend too much time on military forums, and what is worse it seems to be Russian forums. Get a break.

 

[Silver Cat]

Our discussion reminds me of running around a circle. It has little sense. I think you spend too much time on military forums, and what is worse it seems to be Russian forums. Get a break.

That's the point. One needs to read Russian forums, books, journals, documents, to watch Russian movies, etc, to understand Russian military mindset.

 

[ESay]

That's the point. One needs to read Russian forums, books, journals, documents, to watch Russian movies, etc, to understand Russian military mindset.

I am all for reading and getting as much information as possible. I am just against pushing silly Russian military mindset around. Not that I am against that per se, you just look silly doing that.

 

[Silver Cat]

I am all for reading and getting as much information as possible. I am just against pushing silly Russian military mindset around. Not that I am against that per se, you just look silly doing that.

I believe, that in a tension situation much more important to predict Russian behavior than to look smart.

 

[ESay]

I believe, that in a tension situation much more important to predict Russian behavior than to look smart.

Yeah, by making silly predictions about a nuclear war.

 

[Silver Cat]

Yeah, by making silly predictions about a nuclear war.

Do you want to say, that Four-star Admiral Charles Richard is a silly boy?

Nuclear war with China or Russia is a REAL possibility, warns US Commander

AMERICA must now be primed for a full-scale nuclear war with China or Russia, warns the head of US Strategic Command. Four-star Admiral Charles Richard says the chances of an apocalyptic confl…

www.thesun.co.uk

The silly Russian Generals say, that it is a real possibility, the silly American Generals and Admirals say, that it is a real possibility, and only a clever ESay for sure knows, that it's not.

 

[ESay]

Do you want to say, that Four-star Admiral Charles Richard is a silly boy?

Nuclear war with China or Russia is a REAL possibility, warns US Commander

AMERICA must now be primed for a full-scale nuclear war with China or Russia, warns the head of US Strategic Command. Four-star Admiral Charles Richard says the chances of an apocalyptic confl…

www.thesun.co.uk

The silly Russian Generals say, that it is a real possibility, the silly American Generals and Admirals say, that it is a real possibility, and only a clever ESay for sure knows, that it's not.

Cool, it was a real possibility almost a year ago, when he made these claims; it was a real possibility in 2014 when escalation started. It was a real possibility in every year of the Cold War.

But somehow, in the course of the years I have been on this board, I haven't come across a thread where the Americans discussed wastly about a nuclear war with Russia. It is always the Russians who push this theme here. I wonder why.

 

[Ringo]

It is always the Russians who push this theme here. I wonder why.

There was a old soviet song "Do the russians want war?" Song has the answer to why the russians raise the question of the possibility of nuclear war.
With english subs.

 

[ESay]

There was a old soviet song "Do the russians want war?" Song has the answer to why the russians raise the question of the possibility of nuclear war.
With english subs.

That is the main reason you think? The contemporary Russian society doesn't have much to do with the one this song was written for.

On the contrary, from what I can feel from the Russians is that they are 'war-leaning' now due to having been fed by a state propaganda about their highly reformed army, new military hardware and nuclear arsenal.

 

[Silver Cat]

Cool, it was a real possibility almost a year ago, when he made these claims; it was a real possibility in 2014 when escalation started. It was a real possibility in every year of the Cold War.

But somehow, in the course of the years I have been on this board, I haven't come across a thread where the Americans discussed wastly about a nuclear war with Russia. It is always the Russians who push this theme here. I wonder why.

May be because they understand that the nuclear weapons (and the readiness to use it in a case of an attack or an extremal provocation) is the only thing, that protect them from the fate of Yugoslavia, Iraq or Libya.

 

[ESay]

May be because they understand that the nuclear weapons (and the readiness to use it in a case of an attack or an extremal provocation) is the only thing, that protect them from the fate of Yugoslavia, Iraq or Libya.

And? You think that high ranked Pentagon officials read various political forums and get impressed by chit-chats of Russian users here or there?

Nah. Bragging. Pointless Russian bragging about their 'badassness'.

 

[Silver Cat]

That is the main reason you think? The contemporary Russian society doesn't have much to do with the one this song was written for.

On the contrary, from what I can feel from the Russians is that they are 'war-leaning' now due to having been fed by a state propaganda about their highly reformed army, new military hardware and nuclear arsenal.

Something like this?