Russia issues list of demands it says must be met to lower tensions in Europe

[Doc7505]

Russia issues list of demands it says must be met to lower tensions in Europe​

Contentious security guarantees Moscow is seeking include a ban on Ukraine from entering Nato​

Russia issues list of demands it says must be met to lower tensions in Europe

Contentious security guarantees Moscow is seeking include a ban on Ukraine from entering Nato

www.theguardian.com

17 Dec 2021 ~~ By Andrew Roth
Russia has put forward a highly contentious list of security guarantees it says it wants the west to agree to in order to lower tensions in Europe and defuse the crisis over Ukraine, including many elements that have already been ruled out.
The demands include a ban on Ukraine entering Nato and a limit to the deployment of troops and weapons to Nato’s eastern flank, in effect returning Nato forces to where they were stationed in 1997, before an eastward expansion.
The eight-point draft treaty was released by Russia’s foreign ministry as its forces massed within striking distance of Ukraine’s borders. Moscow said ignoring its interests would lead to a “military response” similar to the Cuban missile crisis of 1962.
Vladimir Putin has demanded that the west provide Russia “legal guarantees” of its security. But the Kremlin’s aggressive proposals are likely to be rejected in western capitals as an attempt to formalise a new Russian sphere of influence over eastern Europe.
The demands, spelled out by Moscow in full for the first time, were handed over to the US this week. They include a demand that Nato remove any troops or weapons deployed to countries that entered the alliance after 1997, which would include much of eastern Europe, including Poland, the former Soviet countries of Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, and the Balkan countries.
~Snip~
The demands, spelled out by Moscow in full for the first time, were handed over to the US this week. They include a demand that Nato remove any troops or weapons deployed to countries that entered the alliance after 1997, which would include much of eastern Europe, including Poland, the former Soviet countries of Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, and the Balkan countries.
~Snip~
Russia has massed about 100,000 troops on its side of the border. Joe Biden has warned Putin of “sanctions like he’s never seen” should his troops attack Ukraine. On Thursday, European Union leaders urged Moscow to halt its military buildup and return to talks led by France and Germany.

Commentary:
Joey Xi Bai Dung's great moves since January 2021 have place America and the World in a precarious position. Not only has he driven America into Inflation, given us the Afghanistan debacle, allowed Russia to finish the Nord Stream 2 Pipeline. Now he has given Putin the impetus to threaten Europe with war.
"Moscow said ignoring its interest would lead to a "military response" similar to the Cuban Missile Crisis" of 1962."
It seems that Joey Xi Bai Dung's warning fell on Putin's deaf ears. Putin knows that Joey is weak and unable to follow through with his threat of sanctions and NATO is a farce.
Note that if Putin wins the game of threats with Joey, Europe and NATO, China will take Taiwan without a shot.
Time for Democrats to leave D.C. and let real Americans lead this country....

 

[Silver Cat]

Russian draft documents on legal security guarantees from the United States and NATO | The Vineyard of the Saker

A bird's eye view of the vineyard

thesaker.is

Sounds like a last chance to prevent a war.
It's highly unlikely, that the stupid Bi-Bi administration will accept it, so - let's wait for Russian missiles in Taiwan, Iran, Cuba, Nicaragua, elsewhere...

 

[toobfreak]

Russia issues list of demands it says must be met to lower tensions in Europe

Good god, Doc, I hope one of them isn't demasnding that Joe come do the Ukraine Cossack dance or Prisyadka with Vlad--- it could be WWIII if world peace depends on Joe's knees.

Joe is all out of favors right now anyway bending to the will of Xi, the Taliban, Nancy and Kammy.

 

[Doc7505]

Russian draft documents on legal security guarantees from the United States and NATO | The Vineyard of the Saker

A bird's eye view of the vineyard

thesaker.is

Sounds like a last chance to prevent a war.
It's highly unlikely, that the stupid Bi-Bi administration will accept it, so - let's wait for Russian missiles in Taiwan, Iran, Cuba, Nicaragua, elsewhere...

More likely they'll all be landing here.

 

[Silver Cat]

Another Russian opinion (not very popular between the Russians, but interesting, too).

Washington’s Crime and Punishment

Just yesterday Russia Foreign Ministry published a couple of documents which people have been struggling to interpret ever since, to little useful effect. I would like to offer my own explanation o…

cluborlov.wordpress.com

-------
I disagree that there is anything to be negotiated: these documents are not intended to be used as a starting point for negotiations; they are an invitation for Washington to acknowledge and remedy its transgressions. Washington broke the deal it made with Moscow not to expand east. It could do so because in the years following the breakup of the USSR Moscow was too weak to resist and run by people who thought it possible for Russia to integrate into the West, perhaps even to join NATO. But that era has ended some time ago and the collective West now has to put its collective toes back behind the red line—whether voluntarily or not—and that is the only thing yet to be determined. That is the only choice to be made: stand down voluntarily and make amends or refuse and be punished.
I also disagree that this choice—between making amends and accepting punishment—has anything to do with the EU, or NATO, or various “members” or “partners”. Moscow has no relationship with NATO, seeing it as a mere piece of paper that grants Washington rather questionable legal authority to deploy its military forces in countries around the world. Moscow has some vestigial diplomatic representation with the EU, but doesn’t see it as important and concentrates on bilateral relations with EU members. As for its Eastern European neighbors, the Ukraine is, viewed from Moscow, a US colony and thus entirely a US concern, Poland can go and partition itself again (or not), and, as far as those tiny yet politically annoying statelets of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, so sorry, but the Russian army is equipped with binoculars, not microscopes.

The choice, really, is between facing an increasing risk of a nuclear exchange between two nuclear superpowers—one that is rapidly fading in strength and one that is growing stronger all the time—and reducing that risk as much as possible. Only the two nuclear superpowers need to come to an understanding; everyone else can simply do as they say so that nobody gets hurt. In the case of the Europeans, they should be quite interested in doing so (if they still know what’s good for them) because NATO’s eastward expansion has left them with huge nuclear target signs painted all over them which they would do well to try to remove. Not only that, but NATO’s encroachment on Russia’s borders has increased the risk of a nuclear confrontation breaking out accidentally: all those nuclear-armed bombers, ships and submarines could make a wrong turn somewhere and then—kaboom!—no more Europe.
--------

 

[justinacolmena]

Sounds like a last chance to prevent a war.
It's highly unlikely, that the stupid Bi-Bi administration will accept it, so -

Bi-Bi? Opposition leader in the Israeli state.
Benjamin Netanyahu? Naftali Bennett? Those guys look mostly white European to me, but I'm not at all surprised if they are descendants of Jews who fled Europe in the 1930s. And at the same time they clearly aren't "white white" like full-blooded Nordic or Northern Europeans, so maybe they do get along much better with the Russians than we think they do in the West, especially with connections through Birobidzhan, town hall adminstrative center of the Jewish Autonomous Zone or Oblast in the extreme far east of Russia.

 

[Silver Cat]

Bi-Bi? Opposition leader in the Israeli state.

No. I meant Biden-B_tch couple.

Benjamin Netanyahu? Naftali Bennett? Those guys look mostly white European to me, but I'm not at all surprised if they are descendants of Jews who fled Europe in the 1930s. And at the same time they clearly aren't "white white" like full-blooded Nordic or Northern Europeans, so maybe they do get along much better with the Russians than we think they do in the West, especially with connections through Birobidzhan, town hall adminstrative center of the Jewish Autonomous Zone or Oblast in the extreme far east of Russia.

There are even more close connections. For example, one of Bennet's distant relatives (from the Tribe of Naphtali) is another 'Wizard of Armageddon' who lives in Moscow and works in the Kitezhgrad Project.

 

[Doc7505]

Another Russian opinion (not very popular between the Russians, but interesting, too).

Washington’s Crime and Punishment

Just yesterday Russia Foreign Ministry published a couple of documents which people have been struggling to interpret ever since, to little useful effect. I would like to offer my own explanation o…

cluborlov.wordpress.com

-------
I disagree that there is anything to be negotiated: these documents are not intended to be used as a starting point for negotiations; they are an invitation for Washington to acknowledge and remedy its transgressions. Washington broke the deal it made with Moscow not to expand east. It could do so because in the years following the breakup of the USSR Moscow was too weak to resist and run by people who thought it possible for Russia to integrate into the West, perhaps even to join NATO. But that era has ended some time ago and the collective West now has to put its collective toes back behind the red line—whether voluntarily or not—and that is the only thing yet to be determined. That is the only choice to be made: stand down voluntarily and make amends or refuse and be punished.
I also disagree that this choice—between making amends and accepting punishment—has anything to do with the EU, or NATO, or various “members” or “partners”. Moscow has no relationship with NATO, seeing it as a mere piece of paper that grants Washington rather questionable legal authority to deploy its military forces in countries around the world. Moscow has some vestigial diplomatic representation with the EU, but doesn’t see it as important and concentrates on bilateral relations with EU members. As for its Eastern European neighbors, the Ukraine is, viewed from Moscow, a US colony and thus entirely a US concern, Poland can go and partition itself again (or not), and, as far as those tiny yet politically annoying statelets of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, so sorry, but the Russian army is equipped with binoculars, not microscopes.

The choice, really, is between facing an increasing risk of a nuclear exchange between two nuclear superpowers—one that is rapidly fading in strength and one that is growing stronger all the time—and reducing that risk as much as possible. Only the two nuclear superpowers need to come to an understanding; everyone else can simply do as they say so that nobody gets hurt. In the case of the Europeans, they should be quite interested in doing so (if they still know what’s good for them) because NATO’s eastward expansion has left them with huge nuclear target signs painted all over them which they would do well to try to remove. Not only that, but NATO’s encroachment on Russia’s borders has increased the risk of a nuclear confrontation breaking out accidentally: all those nuclear-armed bombers, ships and submarines could make a wrong turn somewhere and then—kaboom!—no more Europe.
--------

They are not negotiation points they are ultimatums.
He wants the borders pushed back to 1992 lines and will ultimately cut off Gazprom fuel to Europe.
Thanks to Joey Xi making it all possible when he gave the go ahead to finish the Nord Stream 2 Pipeline.

 

[Siberian]

all these demands are born dead, nobody is going to accept it and Putin knows it, it's just a step to expose Western aggression prior to the war.

Like, Hitler attacks USSR and even the US and the UK, who hated Russia, had to join it.

Now the World must see who is to blame for coming war in Ukraine.

The US does the same (trying to put the blame) via fanning false accusations that Russia is going to invade Ukraine while pushing Ukraine to attack Donbass.

This Putin's counterstrike is to expose American aggresive intention, that all this hysteria in Western press is just about America covering own efforts to ignite a war on Russian border.

 

[DudleySmith]

They are not negotiation points they are ultimatums.
He wants the borders pushed back to 1992 lines and will ultimately cut off Gazprom fuel to Europe.
Thanks to Joey Xi making it all possible when he gave the go ahead to finish the Nord Stream 2 Pipeline.

'Both the Russians and Turkey are working hard to keep the two big southern pipelines from happening via the proxy wars and funding terrorists in the ME and Med region, have been fro a couple of decades; it's one of the reasons Syria had to be de-stabilized.

 

[DudleySmith]

all these demands are born dead, nobody is going to accept it and Putin knows it, it's just a step to expose Western egression prior to the war.

Like, Hitler attacks USSR and even the US and the UK, who hated Russia, had to join it.

Now the World must see who is to blame for coming war in Ukraine.

The US does the same via fanning false accusations that Russia is going to invade Ukraine while pushing Ukraine to attack Donbass.

This Putin's counterstrike is to expose American aggresive intention, that all this hysteria in Western press is just about America covering own efforts to ignite a war on Russian border.

Time to move while Europe and the US are weak and being run by faggots and criminals.

 

[fncceo]

Western egression

Is egression getting really excited when exiting something?

 

[ESay]

Russian position is in line with a known tactic - to double your demands to get what you want.

 

[Doc7505]

Russian position is in line with a known tactic - to double your demands to get what you want.

Classic Chess move....

 

[Silver Cat]

Russian position is in line with a known tactic - to double your demands to get what you want.

Actually, Putin's approach is a bit different. He usually makes his best proposal at start, and if declined, his terms getting worse.
Right now he just demands fulfilment of NATO obligations (including Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security between NATO and the Russian Federation)
and suggest (for both sides) don't make stupid provocations. It harms only ego of some Western politicians, especially those who believe in some sort of the Western exeptionalism. Next proposal, made on ruines of Kiev or Taipei will be much worse.

 

[ESay]

Actually, Putin's approach is a bit different. He usually makes his best proposal at start, and if declined, his terms getting worse.
Right now he just demands fulfilment of NATO obligations (including Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security between NATO and the Russian Federation)
and suggest (for both sides) don't make stupid provocations. It harms only ego of some Western politicians, especially those who believe in some sort of the Western exeptionalism. Next proposal, made on ruines of Kiev or Taipei will be much worse.

Dude, don't you know why I haven't encountered any Russian here who wouldn't push some nonsensically ridiculous stuff with a poker face?

 

[Doc7505]

Actually, Putin's approach is a bit different. He usually makes his best proposal at start, and if declined, his terms getting worse.
Right now he just demands fulfilment of NATO obligations (including Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security between NATO and the Russian Federation)
and suggest (for both sides) don't make stupid provocations. It harms only ego of some Western politicians, especially those who believe in some sort of the Western exeptionalism. Next proposal, made on ruines of Kiev or Taipei will be much worse.

~~~~~~
Meanwhile:

Russia sends nuclear-capable bombers on patrol over Belarus

Russia has sent a pair of nuclear-capable long-range bombers to patrol the skies over Belarus and to underline close defense ties between the two allies amid tensions with the West

abcnews.go.com

 

[Silver Cat]

Dude, don't you know why I haven't encountered any Russian here who wouldn't push some nonsensically ridiculous stuff with a poker face?

May be because you are mentally half-Ukrainian, and "Moscowites" (and their 'logic') looks funny for you, in same way, as for 'Great Russians' Ukrainian dialect and mindset sounds funny, too? You are close enough to understand each other, but not enough to take each other seriously.

 

[ESay]

May be because you are mentally half-Ukrainian, and "Moscowites" (and their 'logic') looks funny for you, in same way, as for 'Great Russians' Ukrainian dialect and mindset sounds funny, too? You are close enough to understand each other, but not enough to take each other seriously.

Half-Ukrainian? Why only a 'half'?

 

[Silver Cat]

Half-Ukrainian? Why only a 'half'?

You know English, you know Russian, you live in the Russian-speaking region.