Republicans oppose economic stimulus

[asterism]

IOW, we can't really say

Yes we can, and I just did. The bulk of it had run out by mid 2010.

So it didn't work and this one won't either. It didn't "kickstart the economy," it kicked the can down the road.

 

[Intense]

That's been tried three times. It has failed every time.

Not exactly. It has stimulated the economy. The problem for the Elite is by the time it trickles up it is a whisper. For the working poor and Middle Class it is a Bonus.

No, it did not stimulate the economy. It failed. That is simply an objective fact.

I stimulated the economy with my check. Most people I know did too.

 

[Oddball]

IOW, we can't really say

Yes we can, and I just did. The bulk of it had run out by mid 2010.

So it didn't work and this one won't either. It didn't "kickstart the economy," it kicked the can down the road.

On top of that, we had over 2,000 pages of ObolshevikCare, over 2,000 pages of a financial deform bill, neither of which anyone knew anything abuot what was in them when they passed...The Fed claiming that they weren't going to monetize the debt, then monetizing the debt, then printing up money like there's no tomorrow...Then Greece and Portugal melting down because they can't print their way out of their economic foolhardiness...Gold, silver and just about every other commodity going bonkers...An American president who is unabashedly anti-business (well, unless you're GE or Solyndra)...Bureaucracies shutting down businesses by regulatory fiat...GM & Chrysler basically seized and forced into a shotgun pre-packaged bankruptcy, that shafted the class A bondholders.....

And the neo-Keynsean sorcerers claim that all we really need is another 1/2 trillion flushed down the shitter to set everything straight!

Fuck...me....running....

 

[Dragon]

So it didn't work and this one won't either. It didn't "kickstart the economy," it kicked the can down the road.

Ah, I see now. We are using different definitions of "work."

No, I don't believe that the new stimulus will "work" in that sense, either. For one thing, it's not big enough, and for another there are fundamental reforms that must accompany it.

We have only one instance of government stimulus "working" to pull the economy out of depression, and that was in the early 1940s. That stimulus was much, much bigger than what we have tried already or are proposing. Also, it followed years in which a number of changes to the system -- steeply graduated income tax, worker-friendly labor policies (especially the National Labor Relations Act which was followed by unionization of manufacturing), Social Security -- were put in place essentially transforming the economy.

Unless we do something on that scale, accompanied by a return to progressive taxation and to those labor-friendly policies and more enlightened trade agreements that serve the interests of the people in general rather than the corporate bottom line, as well as one completely new thing, a transition from our inefficient oil-based energy economy to a high-efficiency renewable-energy economy, we won't likely be able to duplicate that success.

Failing that, and I don't see the political possibility of that at present, all the stimulus will do is act as a palliative, lifting the economy somewhat while it is going on, and requiring that it be continued, indefinitely. In this, it will be more like Roosevelt's work-relief programs of the 1930s than like the heavy stimulus spending that actually ended the Depression.

That, however, is enough to eliminate a great deal of suffering and misery, and for that reason alone it is worth doing.

 

[freedombecki]

This is a Democrat atrocity. Stimuli 1 & 2 & 3 didn't work, so let's do what doesn't work again?

Nonsense!

Let's don't do what doesn't work!!!

lol!

Let's do what does work.

:

Your statement reminds me of something that happened a few years ago. My neighbor fell off the roof and was seriously injured and was unable to walk. After an operation he was able to get out of his wheelchair but was still unable to actually walk. A second operation made it possible for him to walk but with a lot of pain. Then a combination of drugs and physical theory completed his recover.

TARP stabilized financial markets. The Jobs bill saved hundreds of thousands of jobs and created millions about equal to jobs being lost keeping us out of a depression. Had these actions not been taken we would be looking a much higher unemployment today. The current bill will add over a million jobs and will kick start the recovery. Of course we all know Republicans aren't going to allow that happen with elections in 2012.

Last time I looked, employers were scared spitless to hire more people on account of Obama's successful decimation of oil drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, the resultant almost triple gasoline prices of that little flingo for ecodingos totally destroyed the tourist industry in the lower 48 not to mention travelling anywhere else, so the tourist industry plummetted. We drove down by a large lake several times this summer to get out of the house, and *poof* no boats anywhere. By last week's visit, numerous marinas around the lake had "for sale" signs out front and that second most common sign was "going out of business."

I know what everyone wants, and I want it, too. Unfortunately, Obama is sharpening his knife to excise even more pain against those doggone oil companies that didn't do him right in the last election. I think I've heard him about 8 times or more droning on to his bees, how other Americans are their "enemies," most recently last night speaking to a lot of latinos and portraying Republicans as their "enemies."

Yep. Business owners are all enemies of Obamastate and need to be on ATTACK>WATCH

 

[Charles_Main]

Without innovation there will be no increased demand.

Untrue, in fact, the exact opposite is true: without increased demand there will be no innovation. Also no further investment in the old ho-hum not-so-innovative parts of the economy. When people have no money to spend, not only are there no customers for mundane ordinary business, but people also have no money to spend on innovative products. Innovation is a child of good times, not bad ones.

You are both right actually. It's a symbiotic Relationship. Demand Drives Innovation, and new innovations can in turn drive even more demand. Both Demand and Innovation tend to like Free Markets, Lower taxes, and less government intrusion. Ironically.

lol

 

[Intense]

Yes we can, and I just did. The bulk of it had run out by mid 2010.

So it didn't work and this one won't either. It didn't "kickstart the economy," it kicked the can down the road.

On top of that, we had over 2,000 pages of ObolshevikCare, over 2,000 pages of a financial deform bill, neither of which anyone knew anything abuot what was in them when they passed...The Fed claiming that they weren't going to monetize the debt, then monetizing the debt, then printing up money like there's no tomorrow...Then Greece and Portugal melting down because they can't print their way out of their economic foolhardiness...Gold, silver and just about every other commodity going bonkers...An American president who is unabashedly anti-business (well, unless you're GE or Solyndra)...Bureaucracies shutting down businesses by regulatory fiat...GM & Chrysler basically seized and forced into a shotgun pre-packaged bankruptcy, that shafted the class A bondholders.....

And the neo-Keynsean sorcerers claim that all we really need is another 1/2 trillion flushed down the shitter to set everything straight!

Fuck...me....running....

There is no substitute for learning to live within our means, and preparing for the future.

 

[elvis]

This is Obamas last stand.

 

[Dragon]

You are both right actually. It's a symbiotic Relationship. Demand Drives Innovation, and new innovations can in turn drive even more demand. Both Demand and Innovation tend to like Free Markets, Lower taxes, and less government intrusion. Ironically.

I was fine until your last sentence, which is demonstrably untrue. The best performance of the U.S. economy in its entire history occurred during the decades that also featured the highest top marginal taxes and the most government intrusion.

 

[freedombecki]

You are both right actually. It's a symbiotic Relationship. Demand Drives Innovation, and new innovations can in turn drive even more demand. Both Demand and Innovation tend to like Free Markets, Lower taxes, and less government intrusion. Ironically.

I was fine until your last sentence, which is demonstrably untrue. The best performance of the U.S. economy in its entire history occurred during the decades that also featured the highest top marginal taxes and the most government intrusion.

That's some little paradigm of paradise you are living in with the unemployment through the roof in this nation.

 

[Dragon]

That's some little paradigm of paradise you are living in with the unemployment through the roof in this nation.

I meant the period from the end of World War II until the mid-1970s, which hardly fits that description.

 

[The Rabbi]

Not exactly. It has stimulated the economy. The problem for the Elite is by the time it trickles up it is a whisper. For the working poor and Middle Class it is a Bonus.

No, it did not stimulate the economy. It failed. That is simply an objective fact.

I stimulated the economy with my check. Most people I know did too.

tell me you're really not that stupid.

 

[Intense]

No, it did not stimulate the economy. It failed. That is simply an objective fact.

I stimulated the economy with my check. Most people I know did too.

tell me you're really not that stupid.

If I am to choose for the money to either go to the Consumer or the Chairman of the Board, I choose the Consumer. This was a Refund I am referring to, under Bush. If you have a hard time with that, it is not my problem. Now pick up your toy's, go pottie, and remember to wash your hands. Do not talk to me about stupid.

 

[The Rabbi]

I stimulated the economy with my check. Most people I know did too.

tell me you're really not that stupid.

If I am to choose for the money to either go to the Consumer or the Chairman of the Board, I choose the Consumer. This was a Refund I am referring to, under Bush. If you have a hard time with that, it is not my problem. Now pick up your toy's, go pottie, and remember to wash your hands. Do not talk to me about stupid.

Yeah I know what you were referring to.
The correct answer is None of the Above. Sending checks to people was a waste of money. Stimulating consumer demand is a waste of money. Amazingly some so-called conservatives argue merely that the stimulus was wrongly done but the basic idea is correct.
It is not.
So when you bring as evidence the fact that you and your immature irresponsible friends blew the money on hookers and blow or whatever it was,you sound like an idiot.
Don't lecture me about going pottie while you are still living in mom's basement.

 

[asterism]

So it didn't work and this one won't either. It didn't "kickstart the economy," it kicked the can down the road.

Ah, I see now. We are using different definitions of "work."

Apparently so. Reasonable people can disagree, and do so in a civil way though, so kudos.

No, I don't believe that the new stimulus will "work" in that sense, either. For one thing, it's not big enough, and for another there are fundamental reforms that must accompany it.

On that I agree. I suspect we disagree on whether any stimulus big enough would work in that sense. I don't.

We have only one instance of government stimulus "working" to pull the economy out of depression, and that was in the early 1940s.

So we do agree that the stimulus started by FDR in the previous decade didn't work then? Cool.

That stimulus was much, much bigger than what we have tried already or are proposing. Also, it followed years in which a number of changes to the system -- steeply graduated income tax, worker-friendly labor policies (especially the National Labor Relations Act which was followed by unionization of manufacturing), Social Security -- were put in place essentially transforming the economy.

I don't think the high marginal rates did anything but put a ceiling on earnings (and there were LOTS of loopholes). That said, I agree that the reforms enacted during that time were key to our growth. Of course now that those reforms are universal, obviously it wasn't panacea. It changed the dynamic and that caused growth.

There's a Chemistry equivalent to this logic. Every chemical reaction needs a catalyst.

Unless we do something on that scale, accompanied by a return to progressive taxation and to those labor-friendly policies and more enlightened trade agreements that serve the interests of the people in general rather than the corporate bottom line, as well as one completely new thing, a transition from our inefficient oil-based energy economy to a high-efficiency renewable-energy economy, we won't likely be able to duplicate that success.

How is the current environment no "labor-friendly?" All the reforms from the 1930s to the 1950s are universal.

As to the renewable-energy economy, the capability needs to be there first. Investment and innovation needs to happen. Solyndra isn't the solution and it's an example of how government cannot solve this problem.

Failing that, and I don't see the political possibility of that at present, all the stimulus will do is act as a palliative, lifting the economy somewhat while it is going on, and requiring that it be continued, indefinitely. In this, it will be more like Roosevelt's work-relief programs of the 1930s than like the heavy stimulus spending that actually ended the Depression.

I agree. It's time for a new plan.

That, however, is enough to eliminate a great deal of suffering and misery, and for that reason alone it is worth doing.

Kicking the can of suffering down the road just prolongs the misery. The crony capitalist means by which the last stimulus was implemented actually does severe harm. GM's bailout not only wasted billions, the government intervention kept actual innovation from happening. It artificially propped up a failed model and removed any opportunity for something new to take its place.

 

[Intense]

tell me you're really not that stupid.

If I am to choose for the money to either go to the Consumer or the Chairman of the Board, I choose the Consumer. This was a Refund I am referring to, under Bush. If you have a hard time with that, it is not my problem. Now pick up your toy's, go pottie, and remember to wash your hands. Do not talk to me about stupid.

Yeah I know what you were referring to.
The correct answer is None of the Above. Sending checks to people was a waste of money. Stimulating consumer demand is a waste of money. Amazingly some so-called conservatives argue merely that the stimulus was wrongly done but the basic idea is correct.
It is not.
So when you bring as evidence the fact that you and your immature irresponsible friends blew the money on hookers and blow or whatever it was,you sound like an idiot.
Don't lecture me about going pottie while you are still living in mom's basement.

I believe Friend, that What I was referring to was a Rebate, not a Stimulus. I do not support Bailouts, rather, amending lifestyle to within One's means of Support. Your Presumption is wrong. Still it is within the role of Government to build and maintain infrastructure, from which we all benefit. It is factored into the equation. How My Friend's, Family, or Myself spend our Own Money, is not your business. Your mind may be in the gutter with Hooker's, Blow, or Farm Animal's, but I assure you, mine is not. I left home at 18 Bird Brain. Either Change that diaper or move down wind. Idiot. Putz.

 

[The Rabbi]

If I am to choose for the money to either go to the Consumer or the Chairman of the Board, I choose the Consumer. This was a Refund I am referring to, under Bush. If you have a hard time with that, it is not my problem. Now pick up your toy's, go pottie, and remember to wash your hands. Do not talk to me about stupid.

Yeah I know what you were referring to.
The correct answer is None of the Above. Sending checks to people was a waste of money. Stimulating consumer demand is a waste of money. Amazingly some so-called conservatives argue merely that the stimulus was wrongly done but the basic idea is correct.
It is not.
So when you bring as evidence the fact that you and your immature irresponsible friends blew the money on hookers and blow or whatever it was,you sound like an idiot.
Don't lecture me about going pottie while you are still living in mom's basement.

I believe Friend, that What I was referring to was a Rebate, not a Stimulus. I do not support Bailouts, rather, amending lifestyle to within One's means of Support. Your Presumption is wrong. Still it is within the role of Government to build and maintain infrastructure, from which we all benefit. It is factored into the equation. How My Friend's, Family, or Myself spend our Own Money, is not your business. Your mind may be in the gutter with Hooker's, Blow, or Farm Animal's, but I assure you, mine is not. I left home at 18 Bird Brain. Either Change that diaper or move down wind. Idiot. Putz.

I see I'm dealing with the slow-normal crowd here.
Best of luck. You'll need it.

 

[Intense]

Yeah I know what you were referring to.
The correct answer is None of the Above. Sending checks to people was a waste of money. Stimulating consumer demand is a waste of money. Amazingly some so-called conservatives argue merely that the stimulus was wrongly done but the basic idea is correct.
It is not.
So when you bring as evidence the fact that you and your immature irresponsible friends blew the money on hookers and blow or whatever it was,you sound like an idiot.
Don't lecture me about going pottie while you are still living in mom's basement.

I believe Friend, that What I was referring to was a Rebate, not a Stimulus. I do not support Bailouts, rather, amending lifestyle to within One's means of Support. Your Presumption is wrong. Still it is within the role of Government to build and maintain infrastructure, from which we all benefit. It is factored into the equation. How My Friend's, Family, or Myself spend our Own Money, is not your business. Your mind may be in the gutter with Hooker's, Blow, or Farm Animal's, but I assure you, mine is not. I left home at 18 Bird Brain. Either Change that diaper or move down wind. Idiot. Putz.

I see I'm dealing with the slow-normal crowd here.
Best of luck. You'll need it.

Don't let the screen door hit you on the way out, Alfalfa.

 

[The Rabbi]

I believe Friend, that What I was referring to was a Rebate, not a Stimulus. I do not support Bailouts, rather, amending lifestyle to within One's means of Support. Your Presumption is wrong. Still it is within the role of Government to build and maintain infrastructure, from which we all benefit. It is factored into the equation. How My Friend's, Family, or Myself spend our Own Money, is not your business. Your mind may be in the gutter with Hooker's, Blow, or Farm Animal's, but I assure you, mine is not. I left home at 18 Bird Brain. Either Change that diaper or move down wind. Idiot. Putz.

I see I'm dealing with the slow-normal crowd here.
Best of luck. You'll need it.

Don't let the screen door hit you on the way out, Alfalfa.

No problem, Skippy. I don't want to waste my time with people who think Sherlock Holmes is a housing project in Miami.

 

[bripat9643]

Without innovation there will be no increased demand.

Untrue, in fact, the exact opposite is true: without increased demand there will be no innovation.

That's idiotic. It's socialist propaganda intended to make taking money from productive people and giving it to parasites as something positive for the economy. No credible theory of economics says paying people to do stuff nobody wants is going to improve the material well being of the country.