Religious people seem to have more bias in these debates.

occupied

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Consolation for the certainty of death for themselves and everyone they love. They cannot cope with the possibility that their parents and grandparents no longer exist in any meaningful form. Never underestimate how much these people fear death. For this reason I am loath to attack anyone's personal faith. I keep all my criticism on the point where faith intersects politics.
I don't fear death, as a believer. And I didn't fear death when I was an unbeliever. Why should I have, when I didn't believe in God or heaven and hell? And why should a Christian fear death, when we believe that we will be with God in heaven after we die? As someone else mentioned, I can't think of any Christians I know who fear dying. :dunno:
The Christian obsession with the afterlife is 100% rooted in the fear of death. If you are not worried because you think an eternity of bliss awaits you then your faith has served the purpose for which it was designed. There's no shame in that but I can't do it anymore. The faith of my youth died from a thousand cuts inflicted by this cruel world we were born into.
You didn't get what I was saying. I don't know any Christians who became a believer out of fear of death. That makes no sense, because when you're an unbeliever you don't believe there is anything to fear. When you die, that's it, that's all there is, right? So why would you fear death as an unbeliever? And once you become a believer, there's no need to fear because you will be with God in heaven. So what you're saying makes no sense. The only people who I have heard fear death are lifelong unbelievers who are on their deathbed and then have a last-minute conversion, out of fear that they were wrong.
And yet the bible mentions a reward for obedience as eternity in paradise and the punishment for disobedience as being condemned to living an eternity suffering in hell.

That is nothing but playing on peoples' fear and greed in order to get them to comply.

So if a person chooses to live a good life with no expectation of any reward of eternal bliss and no expectation of eternal punishment if he doesn't how does he compare to the person who lives a good life because he wants to live in eternal bliss as a reward or because he fears the eternal punishment ?
Actually, it's not about obedience. It's impossible for ANY human being to be "good" enough to get to heaven. We can try our hardest to obey God all the time, but we will inevitably fail if we try to do that on our own.

It's about receiving the gift of salvation and becoming born again, as opposed to going through life following rules or trying to be a "good person." That just doesn't work. The only way to transform one's character and life is to surrender to God and become a new creation. Then the good works and transformation will inevitably happen, because we are literally changed from the inside out.

And yeah I've heard your claim from atheists so many times. I have never met a Christian who came to God out of fear. It's always out of love. Yes, the bible talks about "fear of the Lord" but not in the sense you're talking about. The fear spoken about is a deep respect and reverence.
I grew up in a succession of cultish Southern Baptist/ Pentecostal churches. I was filled with so much fear of death and Hell it almost seems like it happened to someone else. Terrible thing to do to a kid. I was driven in tears to the altar at a tent revival at age 7 by the certainty that I was going to Hell. Maybe when you grow up you come to call that fear something else but it's always there.
That is not the way it's supposed to be, and it's very unfortunate that that was your experience. As it says in Romans 2:4, it's the kindness and goodness of God that lead people to repentance. Not fear of death and hell.
Hellfire and brimstone to the max. It's a formula as old as time. The angry sky god must be appeased.
 

Hollie

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How is it you know that with certainty? Where in the Bible has any writer identified the stories are theme as opposed to literal rendering?
Ever study Judaism with people who know Hebrew?
That doesn't address the question.

Beside you, who decides the writers intent as to what passages are literal and what is fable?
 

buttercup

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Consolation for the certainty of death for themselves and everyone they love. They cannot cope with the possibility that their parents and grandparents no longer exist in any meaningful form. Never underestimate how much these people fear death. For this reason I am loath to attack anyone's personal faith. I keep all my criticism on the point where faith intersects politics.
I don't fear death, as a believer. And I didn't fear death when I was an unbeliever. Why should I have, when I didn't believe in God or heaven and hell? And why should a Christian fear death, when we believe that we will be with God in heaven after we die? As someone else mentioned, I can't think of any Christians I know who fear dying. :dunno:
The Christian obsession with the afterlife is 100% rooted in the fear of death. If you are not worried because you think an eternity of bliss awaits you then your faith has served the purpose for which it was designed. There's no shame in that but I can't do it anymore. The faith of my youth died from a thousand cuts inflicted by this cruel world we were born into.
You didn't get what I was saying. I don't know any Christians who became a believer out of fear of death. That makes no sense, because when you're an unbeliever you don't believe there is anything to fear. When you die, that's it, that's all there is, right? So why would you fear death as an unbeliever? And once you become a believer, there's no need to fear because you will be with God in heaven. So what you're saying makes no sense. The only people who I have heard fear death are lifelong unbelievers who are on their deathbed and then have a last-minute conversion, out of fear that they were wrong.
And yet the bible mentions a reward for obedience as eternity in paradise and the punishment for disobedience as being condemned to living an eternity suffering in hell.

That is nothing but playing on peoples' fear and greed in order to get them to comply.

So if a person chooses to live a good life with no expectation of any reward of eternal bliss and no expectation of eternal punishment if he doesn't how does he compare to the person who lives a good life because he wants to live in eternal bliss as a reward or because he fears the eternal punishment ?
Actually, it's not about obedience. It's impossible for ANY human being to be "good" enough to get to heaven. We can try our hardest to obey God all the time, but we will inevitably fail if we try to do that on our own.

It's about receiving the gift of salvation and becoming born again, as opposed to going through life following rules or trying to be a "good person." That just doesn't work. The only way to transform one's character and life is to surrender to God and become a new creation. Then the good works and transformation will inevitably happen, because we are literally changed from the inside out.

And yeah I've heard your claim from atheists so many times. I have never met a Christian who came to God out of fear. It's always out of love. Yes, the bible talks about "fear of the Lord" but not in the sense you're talking about. The fear spoken about is a deep respect and reverence.
I grew up in a succession of cultish Southern Baptist/ Pentecostal churches. I was filled with so much fear of death and Hell it almost seems like it happened to someone else. Terrible thing to do to a kid. I was driven in tears to the altar at a tent revival at age 7 by the certainty that I was going to Hell. Maybe when you grow up you come to call that fear something else but it's always there.
That is not the way it's supposed to be, and it's very unfortunate that that was your experience. As it says in Romans 2:4, it's the kindness and goodness of God that lead people to repentance. Not fear of death and hell.
Hellfire and brimstone to the max. It's a formula as old as time. The angry sky god must be appeased.
You're conflating religion with God. What's important is not religion or particular churches which can be misguided or unhealthy, but God / truth. God is good. That's the most important thing to know. It's actually illogical to think otherwise, because God is the source of goodness / truth itself.
 

Briss

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Sure, but if an atheist does something good, how is the god the source of the goodness?
 
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occupied

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Consolation for the certainty of death for themselves and everyone they love. They cannot cope with the possibility that their parents and grandparents no longer exist in any meaningful form. Never underestimate how much these people fear death. For this reason I am loath to attack anyone's personal faith. I keep all my criticism on the point where faith intersects politics.
I don't fear death, as a believer. And I didn't fear death when I was an unbeliever. Why should I have, when I didn't believe in God or heaven and hell? And why should a Christian fear death, when we believe that we will be with God in heaven after we die? As someone else mentioned, I can't think of any Christians I know who fear dying. :dunno:
The Christian obsession with the afterlife is 100% rooted in the fear of death. If you are not worried because you think an eternity of bliss awaits you then your faith has served the purpose for which it was designed. There's no shame in that but I can't do it anymore. The faith of my youth died from a thousand cuts inflicted by this cruel world we were born into.
You didn't get what I was saying. I don't know any Christians who became a believer out of fear of death. That makes no sense, because when you're an unbeliever you don't believe there is anything to fear. When you die, that's it, that's all there is, right? So why would you fear death as an unbeliever? And once you become a believer, there's no need to fear because you will be with God in heaven. So what you're saying makes no sense. The only people who I have heard fear death are lifelong unbelievers who are on their deathbed and then have a last-minute conversion, out of fear that they were wrong.
And yet the bible mentions a reward for obedience as eternity in paradise and the punishment for disobedience as being condemned to living an eternity suffering in hell.

That is nothing but playing on peoples' fear and greed in order to get them to comply.

So if a person chooses to live a good life with no expectation of any reward of eternal bliss and no expectation of eternal punishment if he doesn't how does he compare to the person who lives a good life because he wants to live in eternal bliss as a reward or because he fears the eternal punishment ?
Actually, it's not about obedience. It's impossible for ANY human being to be "good" enough to get to heaven. We can try our hardest to obey God all the time, but we will inevitably fail if we try to do that on our own.

It's about receiving the gift of salvation and becoming born again, as opposed to going through life following rules or trying to be a "good person." That just doesn't work. The only way to transform one's character and life is to surrender to God and become a new creation. Then the good works and transformation will inevitably happen, because we are literally changed from the inside out.

And yeah I've heard your claim from atheists so many times. I have never met a Christian who came to God out of fear. It's always out of love. Yes, the bible talks about "fear of the Lord" but not in the sense you're talking about. The fear spoken about is a deep respect and reverence.
I grew up in a succession of cultish Southern Baptist/ Pentecostal churches. I was filled with so much fear of death and Hell it almost seems like it happened to someone else. Terrible thing to do to a kid. I was driven in tears to the altar at a tent revival at age 7 by the certainty that I was going to Hell. Maybe when you grow up you come to call that fear something else but it's always there.
That is not the way it's supposed to be, and it's very unfortunate that that was your experience. As it says in Romans 2:4, it's the kindness and goodness of God that lead people to repentance. Not fear of death and hell.
Hellfire and brimstone to the max. It's a formula as old as time. The angry sky god must be appeased.
You're conflating religion with God. What's important is not religion or particular churches which can be misguided or unhealthy, but God / truth. God is good. That's the most important thing to know. It's actually illogical to think otherwise, because God is the source of goodness / truth itself.
Gods die without a religion to sustain them.
 

bear513

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That puts the believers in that Cul de sac of picking and choosing what they like and what they don’t.

Why the need to include a child’s story?
I didn't say it included a child's story. I said we needed to move beyond a child's take on a story. And that, moves believers out of the cul-de-sac and onto a pathway (the one less traveled).
What child’s take on a story are you referring to? There is nothing childish (in terms of harm to humanity), about the flood fable. Is the resurrection a child’s story?
Probably because the flood happened in china also.
 

BreezeWood

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Gods who punish people into eternity for not believing are sadistic, vengeful and really awful.
God, is synonymous with good and with love. Perhaps dwell on that instead. It won't take very long to understand God is not sadistic, vengeful, or really awful. Consider this Bible verse:

There is no fear in love,
but perfect love drives out fear
because fear has to do with punishment,

and so one who fears is not yet perfect in love.

When it comes to faith and religion, people may wish to listen to those who do not cause them to fear, but rather inspire them to love.
.
God, is synonymous with good and with love. Perhaps dwell on that instead. It won't take very long to understand God is not sadistic, vengeful, or really awful. Consider this Bible verse:
.
- they were most likely referring to your christian bible ...
 

BreezeWood

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Consolation for the certainty of death for themselves and everyone they love. They cannot cope with the possibility that their parents and grandparents no longer exist in any meaningful form. Never underestimate how much these people fear death. For this reason I am loath to attack anyone's personal faith. I keep all my criticism on the point where faith intersects politics.
I don't fear death, as a believer. And I didn't fear death when I was an unbeliever. Why should I have, when I didn't believe in God or heaven and hell? And why should a Christian fear death, when we believe that we will be with God in heaven after we die? As someone else mentioned, I can't think of any Christians I know who fear dying. :dunno:
The Christian obsession with the afterlife is 100% rooted in the fear of death. If you are not worried because you think an eternity of bliss awaits you then your faith has served the purpose for which it was designed. There's no shame in that but I can't do it anymore. The faith of my youth died from a thousand cuts inflicted by this cruel world we were born into.
You didn't get what I was saying. I don't know any Christians who became a believer out of fear of death. That makes no sense, because when you're an unbeliever you don't believe there is anything to fear. When you die, that's it, that's all there is, right? So why would you fear death as an unbeliever? And once you become a believer, there's no need to fear because you will be with God in heaven. So what you're saying makes no sense. The only people who I have heard fear death are lifelong unbelievers who are on their deathbed and then have a last-minute conversion, out of fear that they were wrong.
And yet the bible mentions a reward for obedience as eternity in paradise and the punishment for disobedience as being condemned to living an eternity suffering in hell.

That is nothing but playing on peoples' fear and greed in order to get them to comply.

So if a person chooses to live a good life with no expectation of any reward of eternal bliss and no expectation of eternal punishment if he doesn't how does he compare to the person who lives a good life because he wants to live in eternal bliss as a reward or because he fears the eternal punishment ?
Actually, it's not about obedience. It's impossible for ANY human being to be "good" enough to get to heaven. We can try our hardest to obey God all the time, but we will inevitably fail if we try to do that on our own.

It's about receiving the gift of salvation and becoming born again, as opposed to going through life following rules or trying to be a "good person." That just doesn't work. The only way to transform one's character and life is to surrender to God and become a new creation. Then the good works and transformation will inevitably happen, because we are literally changed from the inside out.

And yeah I've heard your claim from atheists so many times. I have never met a Christian who came to God out of fear. It's always out of love. Yes, the bible talks about "fear of the Lord" but not in the sense you're talking about. The fear spoken about is a deep respect and reverence.
.
Actually, it's not about obedience. It's impossible for ANY human being to be "good" enough to get to heaven.
.
you have a habit of speaking for others - the religion of antiquity is specifically the requirement to attain admission is through absolute accomplishment.
 

LittleNipper

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Sure, but if an atheist does something good, how is the god the source of the goodness?
He was influenced by the goodness that GOD has brought to the world. No man is an island unto himself. There are influences. GOD needed something accomplished and this was how HE chose to accomplish it.
 

LittleNipper

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Consolation for the certainty of death for themselves and everyone they love. They cannot cope with the possibility that their parents and grandparents no longer exist in any meaningful form. Never underestimate how much these people fear death. For this reason I am loath to attack anyone's personal faith. I keep all my criticism on the point where faith intersects politics.
I don't fear death, as a believer. And I didn't fear death when I was an unbeliever. Why should I have, when I didn't believe in God or heaven and hell? And why should a Christian fear death, when we believe that we will be with God in heaven after we die? As someone else mentioned, I can't think of any Christians I know who fear dying. :dunno:
The Christian obsession with the afterlife is 100% rooted in the fear of death. If you are not worried because you think an eternity of bliss awaits you then your faith has served the purpose for which it was designed. There's no shame in that but I can't do it anymore. The faith of my youth died from a thousand cuts inflicted by this cruel world we were born into.
You didn't get what I was saying. I don't know any Christians who became a believer out of fear of death. That makes no sense, because when you're an unbeliever you don't believe there is anything to fear. When you die, that's it, that's all there is, right? So why would you fear death as an unbeliever? And once you become a believer, there's no need to fear because you will be with God in heaven. So what you're saying makes no sense. The only people who I have heard fear death are lifelong unbelievers who are on their deathbed and then have a last-minute conversion, out of fear that they were wrong.
And yet the bible mentions a reward for obedience as eternity in paradise and the punishment for disobedience as being condemned to living an eternity suffering in hell.

That is nothing but playing on peoples' fear and greed in order to get them to comply.

So if a person chooses to live a good life with no expectation of any reward of eternal bliss and no expectation of eternal punishment if he doesn't how does he compare to the person who lives a good life because he wants to live in eternal bliss as a reward or because he fears the eternal punishment ?
Actually, it's not about obedience. It's impossible for ANY human being to be "good" enough to get to heaven. We can try our hardest to obey God all the time, but we will inevitably fail if we try to do that on our own.

It's about receiving the gift of salvation and becoming born again, as opposed to going through life following rules or trying to be a "good person." That just doesn't work. The only way to transform one's character and life is to surrender to God and become a new creation. Then the good works and transformation will inevitably happen, because we are literally changed from the inside out.

And yeah I've heard your claim from atheists so many times. I have never met a Christian who came to God out of fear. It's always out of love. Yes, the bible talks about "fear of the Lord" but not in the sense you're talking about. The fear spoken about is a deep respect and reverence.
.
Actually, it's not about obedience. It's impossible for ANY human being to be "good" enough to get to heaven.
.
you have a habit of speaking for others - the religion of antiquity is specifically the requirement to attain admission is through absolute accomplishment.
A perfect GOD demands perfection at all times. Religion is man trying to reach GOD through his own efforts. Christianity is GOD reaching down to man with HIS perfection.
 

BreezeWood

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Consolation for the certainty of death for themselves and everyone they love. They cannot cope with the possibility that their parents and grandparents no longer exist in any meaningful form. Never underestimate how much these people fear death. For this reason I am loath to attack anyone's personal faith. I keep all my criticism on the point where faith intersects politics.
I don't fear death, as a believer. And I didn't fear death when I was an unbeliever. Why should I have, when I didn't believe in God or heaven and hell? And why should a Christian fear death, when we believe that we will be with God in heaven after we die? As someone else mentioned, I can't think of any Christians I know who fear dying. :dunno:
The Christian obsession with the afterlife is 100% rooted in the fear of death. If you are not worried because you think an eternity of bliss awaits you then your faith has served the purpose for which it was designed. There's no shame in that but I can't do it anymore. The faith of my youth died from a thousand cuts inflicted by this cruel world we were born into.
You didn't get what I was saying. I don't know any Christians who became a believer out of fear of death. That makes no sense, because when you're an unbeliever you don't believe there is anything to fear. When you die, that's it, that's all there is, right? So why would you fear death as an unbeliever? And once you become a believer, there's no need to fear because you will be with God in heaven. So what you're saying makes no sense. The only people who I have heard fear death are lifelong unbelievers who are on their deathbed and then have a last-minute conversion, out of fear that they were wrong.
And yet the bible mentions a reward for obedience as eternity in paradise and the punishment for disobedience as being condemned to living an eternity suffering in hell.

That is nothing but playing on peoples' fear and greed in order to get them to comply.

So if a person chooses to live a good life with no expectation of any reward of eternal bliss and no expectation of eternal punishment if he doesn't how does he compare to the person who lives a good life because he wants to live in eternal bliss as a reward or because he fears the eternal punishment ?
Actually, it's not about obedience. It's impossible for ANY human being to be "good" enough to get to heaven. We can try our hardest to obey God all the time, but we will inevitably fail if we try to do that on our own.

It's about receiving the gift of salvation and becoming born again, as opposed to going through life following rules or trying to be a "good person." That just doesn't work. The only way to transform one's character and life is to surrender to God and become a new creation. Then the good works and transformation will inevitably happen, because we are literally changed from the inside out.

And yeah I've heard your claim from atheists so many times. I have never met a Christian who came to God out of fear. It's always out of love. Yes, the bible talks about "fear of the Lord" but not in the sense you're talking about. The fear spoken about is a deep respect and reverence.
.
Actually, it's not about obedience. It's impossible for ANY human being to be "good" enough to get to heaven.
.
you have a habit of speaking for others - the religion of antiquity is specifically the requirement to attain admission is through absolute accomplishment.
A perfect GOD demands perfection at all times. Religion is man trying to reach GOD through his own efforts. Christianity is GOD reaching down to man with HIS perfection.
.
A perfect GOD demands perfection at all times. Religion is man trying to reach GOD through his own efforts. Christianity is GOD reaching down to man with HIS perfection.
.
they are not perfect, just look at the universe - they are pure, that's the point - to triumph over evil, its their universe, their rule - for admission.
 

Briss

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Sure, but if an atheist does something good, how is the god the source of the goodness?
He was influenced by the goodness that GOD has brought to the world. No man is an island unto himself. There are influences. GOD needed something accomplished and this was how HE chose to accomplish it.
No. The atheist (person) was influenced by another human being's need.
 
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Blues Man

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And yet the bible mentions a reward for obedience as eternity in paradise and the punishment for disobedience as being condemned to living an eternity suffering in hell.

That is nothing but playing on peoples' fear and greed in order to get them to comply.
Disobedience to God's commands opens the other door into turmoil, hate, depression, evil (hell) right here, right now, in our life today on earth. Jesus.
It is always good to hear a believer who understands that if there is a thing like a god, it isn't sadistic.
and yet the god in the bible did some pretty awful things
 

Blues Man

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Consolation for the certainty of death for themselves and everyone they love. They cannot cope with the possibility that their parents and grandparents no longer exist in any meaningful form. Never underestimate how much these people fear death. For this reason I am loath to attack anyone's personal faith. I keep all my criticism on the point where faith intersects politics.
I don't fear death, as a believer. And I didn't fear death when I was an unbeliever. Why should I have, when I didn't believe in God or heaven and hell? And why should a Christian fear death, when we believe that we will be with God in heaven after we die? As someone else mentioned, I can't think of any Christians I know who fear dying. :dunno:
The Christian obsession with the afterlife is 100% rooted in the fear of death. If you are not worried because you think an eternity of bliss awaits you then your faith has served the purpose for which it was designed. There's no shame in that but I can't do it anymore. The faith of my youth died from a thousand cuts inflicted by this cruel world we were born into.
You didn't get what I was saying. I don't know any Christians who became a believer out of fear of death. That makes no sense, because when you're an unbeliever you don't believe there is anything to fear. When you die, that's it, that's all there is, right? So why would you fear death as an unbeliever? And once you become a believer, there's no need to fear because you will be with God in heaven. So what you're saying makes no sense. The only people who I have heard fear death are lifelong unbelievers who are on their deathbed and then have a last-minute conversion, out of fear that they were wrong.
And yet the bible mentions a reward for obedience as eternity in paradise and the punishment for disobedience as being condemned to living an eternity suffering in hell.

That is nothing but playing on peoples' fear and greed in order to get them to comply.

So if a person chooses to live a good life with no expectation of any reward of eternal bliss and no expectation of eternal punishment if he doesn't how does he compare to the person who lives a good life because he wants to live in eternal bliss as a reward or because he fears the eternal punishment ?
Actually, it's not about obedience. It's impossible for ANY human being to be "good" enough to get to heaven. We can try our hardest to obey God all the time, but we will inevitably fail if we try to do that on our own.

It's about receiving the gift of salvation and becoming born again, as opposed to going through life following rules or trying to be a "good person." That just doesn't work. The only way to transform one's character and life is to surrender to God and become a new creation. Then the good works and transformation will inevitably happen, because we are literally changed from the inside out.

And yeah I've heard your claim from atheists so many times. I have never met a Christian who came to God out of fear. It's always out of love. Yes, the bible talks about "fear of the Lord" but not in the sense you're talking about. The fear spoken about is a deep respect and reverence.
I grew up in a succession of cultish Southern Baptist/ Pentecostal churches. I was filled with so much fear of death and Hell it almost seems like it happened to someone else. Terrible thing to do to a kid. I was driven in tears to the altar at a tent revival at age 7 by the certainty that I was going to Hell. Maybe when you grow up you come to call that fear something else but it's always there.
That is not the way it's supposed to be, and it's very unfortunate that that was your experience. As it says in Romans 2:4, it's the kindness and goodness of God that lead people to repentance. Not fear of death and hell.
Hellfire and brimstone to the max. It's a formula as old as time. The angry sky god must be appeased.
You're conflating religion with God. What's important is not religion or particular churches which can be misguided or unhealthy, but God / truth. God is good. That's the most important thing to know. It's actually illogical to think otherwise, because God is the source of goodness / truth itself.
Gods die without a religion to sustain them.
or when another religion is forced upon people
 

Batcat

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Science convinced me that God exists.





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Anomalism

Anomalism

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He was influenced by the goodness that GOD has brought to the world. No man is an island unto himself. There are influences. GOD needed something accomplished and this was how HE chose to accomplish it.
Do humans ever get credit for the good they do?
 

surada

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That puts the believers in that Cul de sac of picking and choosing what they like and what they don’t.

Why the need to include a child’s story?
I didn't say it included a child's story. I said we needed to move beyond a child's take on a story. And that, moves believers out of the cul-de-sac and onto a pathway (the one less traveled).
What child’s take on a story are you referring to? There is nothing childish (in terms of harm to humanity), about the flood fable. Is the resurrection a child’s story?
Probably because the flood happened in china also.
There's no worldwide flood footprint..
 

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