Religious people seem to have more bias in these debates.

Hollie

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That puts the believers in that Cul de sac of picking and choosing what they like and what they don’t.

Why the need to include a child’s story?
I didn't say it included a child's story. I said we needed to move beyond a child's take on a story. And that, moves believers out of the cul-de-sac and onto a pathway (the one less traveled).
What child’s take on a story are you referring to? There is nothing childish (in terms of harm to humanity), about the flood fable. Is the resurrection a child’s story?
 

Meriweather

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There is nothing childish (in terms of harm to humanity), about the flood fable.
Think about perspective. What might a child-like perspective be. How might that differ from a more mature perspective?
 

Briss

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If I understand it correctly, a being created humankind; it became angry with what it had created; it then decided to drown the evidence of its flawed creation.

The problem with that story is that it makes the being look like a clay-master who blames the clay for the flaws in the finished product; a being who had yet to learn the truth of the fact that the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree. A tree is known by its fruit. If we be of god, and we be sinful, what kind of a tree does that make god?
 

Meriweather

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If I understand it correctly, a being created humankind; it became angry with what it had created; it then decided to drown the evidence of its flawed creation.

The problem with that story is that it makes the being look like a clay-master who blames the clay for the flaws in the finished product; a being who had yet to learn the truth of the fact that the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree. A tree is known by its fruit. If we be of god, and we be sinful, what kind of a tree does that make god?
Who wrote the account? When was it written? What was, and still is, a core Middle Eastern belief about God?

The belief held about God is that God is the power behind everything that happens. Some Muslims hold the belief that they cannot even move their little finger each time lest it first be the will of God. Another deeply held religious belief in Biblical times is that God is all good and merciful. How to reconcile these beliefs about God. It is still human nature today, is to examine one's behavior towards the person(s) who has passed on.

The account was written, my man, after the fact--and we can see they felt their behavior had been so bad when held up to the goodness of God it deserved eradication. Take note of Noah's behavior. The most righteous man living at that time said nothing to anyone about their bad behavior; did not warn them of retribution, and afterwards suffered so much from survivor's guilt he became a drunk. One son tried to cover up this dirty linen, the other decided to air it publicly.

Further, they decided in order to prevent the previous evil from surfacing again, everyone should spread out so as not be so readily influenced, However, humans being what we are, people instead began gathering and building the great city of Babylon. So many came in, it became known as the city of many languages, so many languages they no longer understood each other. We are told this is why the great city collapsed. (Remember, people spoke the way they did instead of all the same because it was the will of God, as was everything.)

Moving along through Genesis, is the theme that societies that lacked discipline were doomed to fail. The most obvious sign of an undisciplined society? Loose sexual morals and lack of hospitality.

Note, these are all things our ancient ancestors, barely out of the Stone Age, warned their children and descendants about. Parents, today, still try to do the same: Warn their children of the mistakes they made, hoping the children will learn from them. Doesn't work that well today either, does it?

Children's version: Be good or a flood will wash you away. Don't tell the neighbors your dad drinks. Build a tower, create new languages.
 

Hollie

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There is nothing childish (in terms of harm to humanity), about the flood fable.
Think about perspective. What might a child-like perspective be. How might that differ from a more mature perspective?
Think about the source of the child's tales. Who decides which tales are child-like perspectives as opposed to mature perspectives?

Is the Ark fable child-like but men rising from the dead is not?
 

Meriweather

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Who decides which tales are child-like perspectives as opposed to mature perspectives?
What is the author's theme? Do you believe the author's theme was to present God in a " sadistic, vengeful and willing to inflict incredible cruelty on their 'children'" manner? Or, did you read the account, arrive at a conclusion about God, without caring a whit about the author's theme?

Follow-up question: When did you form your own conclusions about God's character? Before or after you read the Bible?
 

Hollie

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Who decides which tales are child-like perspectives as opposed to mature perspectives?
What is the author's theme? Do you believe the author's theme was to present God in a " sadistic, vengeful and willing to inflict incredible cruelty on their 'children'" manner? Or, did you read the account, arrive at a conclusion about God, without caring a whit about the author's theme?

Follow-up question: When did you form your own conclusions about God's character? Before or after you read the Bible?
So.... we're to assume that various tale in the Bible are sometimes theme and sometimes literal renderings.

Can you give us a list?
 

Meriweather

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So.... we're to assume that various tale in the Bible are sometimes theme and sometimes literal renderings.

Can you give us a list?
Assume what you want. And, you are quite capable of making your own list.
 

buttercup

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If you were to pick a God, how hard is it to look at the various world religions, study and compare them and see for yourself which one is backed up with evidence and compelling reasons to believe?
Lol

And which one is that?
There's no comparison. I'm a Christian not because I was brought up in a Christian home (I wasn't, religion or God were never brought up in our house growing up) but because I have seen more than enough evidence and reasons to cause me to radically change my worldview. You have to seek in order to find. If you don't seek, you'll probably never find truth. I was not looking for God, but that is where I ended up, and as I said before, that was a surprise to me, because I was as unreligious as it gets.
 

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The problem began when men personified the images of their beliefs. And today, instead of realizing that no such image exists, they simply assign more refined qualities to the personified image of the past.
 

buttercup

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Consolation for the certainty of death for themselves and everyone they love. They cannot cope with the possibility that their parents and grandparents no longer exist in any meaningful form. Never underestimate how much these people fear death. For this reason I am loath to attack anyone's personal faith. I keep all my criticism on the point where faith intersects politics.
I don't fear death, as a believer. And I didn't fear death when I was an unbeliever. Why should I have, when I didn't believe in God or heaven and hell? And why should a Christian fear death, when we believe that we will be with God in heaven after we die? As someone else mentioned, I can't think of any Christians I know who fear dying. :dunno:
The Christian obsession with the afterlife is 100% rooted in the fear of death. If you are not worried because you think an eternity of bliss awaits you then your faith has served the purpose for which it was designed. There's no shame in that but I can't do it anymore. The faith of my youth died from a thousand cuts inflicted by this cruel world we were born into.
You didn't get what I was saying. I don't know any Christians who became a believer out of fear of death. That makes no sense, because when you're an unbeliever you don't believe there is anything to fear. When you die, that's it, that's all there is, right? So why would you fear death as an unbeliever? And once you become a believer, there's no need to fear because you will be with God in heaven. So what you're saying makes no sense. The only people who I have heard fear death are lifelong unbelievers who are on their deathbed and then have a last-minute conversion, out of fear that they were wrong.
And yet the bible mentions a reward for obedience as eternity in paradise and the punishment for disobedience as being condemned to living an eternity suffering in hell.

That is nothing but playing on peoples' fear and greed in order to get them to comply.

So if a person chooses to live a good life with no expectation of any reward of eternal bliss and no expectation of eternal punishment if he doesn't how does he compare to the person who lives a good life because he wants to live in eternal bliss as a reward or because he fears the eternal punishment ?
Actually, it's not about obedience. It's impossible for ANY human being to be "good" enough to get to heaven. We can try our hardest to obey God all the time, but we will inevitably fail if we try to do that on our own.

It's about receiving the gift of salvation and becoming born again, as opposed to going through life following rules or trying to be a "good person." That just doesn't work. The only way to transform one's character and life is to surrender to God and become a new creation. Then the good works and transformation will inevitably happen, because we are literally changed from the inside out.

And yeah I've heard your claim from atheists so many times. I have never met a Christian who came to God out of fear. It's always out of love. Yes, the bible talks about "fear of the Lord" but not in the sense you're talking about. The fear spoken about is a deep respect and reverence.
 

occupied

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Consolation for the certainty of death for themselves and everyone they love. They cannot cope with the possibility that their parents and grandparents no longer exist in any meaningful form. Never underestimate how much these people fear death. For this reason I am loath to attack anyone's personal faith. I keep all my criticism on the point where faith intersects politics.
I don't fear death, as a believer. And I didn't fear death when I was an unbeliever. Why should I have, when I didn't believe in God or heaven and hell? And why should a Christian fear death, when we believe that we will be with God in heaven after we die? As someone else mentioned, I can't think of any Christians I know who fear dying. :dunno:
The Christian obsession with the afterlife is 100% rooted in the fear of death. If you are not worried because you think an eternity of bliss awaits you then your faith has served the purpose for which it was designed. There's no shame in that but I can't do it anymore. The faith of my youth died from a thousand cuts inflicted by this cruel world we were born into.
You didn't get what I was saying. I don't know any Christians who became a believer out of fear of death. That makes no sense, because when you're an unbeliever you don't believe there is anything to fear. When you die, that's it, that's all there is, right? So why would you fear death as an unbeliever? And once you become a believer, there's no need to fear because you will be with God in heaven. So what you're saying makes no sense. The only people who I have heard fear death are lifelong unbelievers who are on their deathbed and then have a last-minute conversion, out of fear that they were wrong.
And yet the bible mentions a reward for obedience as eternity in paradise and the punishment for disobedience as being condemned to living an eternity suffering in hell.

That is nothing but playing on peoples' fear and greed in order to get them to comply.

So if a person chooses to live a good life with no expectation of any reward of eternal bliss and no expectation of eternal punishment if he doesn't how does he compare to the person who lives a good life because he wants to live in eternal bliss as a reward or because he fears the eternal punishment ?
Actually, it's not about obedience. It's impossible for ANY human being to be "good" enough to get to heaven. We can try our hardest to obey God all the time, but we will inevitably fail if we try to do that on our own.

It's about receiving the gift of salvation and becoming born again, as opposed to going through life following rules or trying to be a "good person." That just doesn't work. The only way to transform one's character and life is to surrender to God and become a new creation. Then the good works and transformation will inevitably happen, because we are literally changed from the inside out.

And yeah I've heard your claim from atheists so many times. I have never met a Christian who came to God out of fear. It's always out of love. Yes, the bible talks about "fear of the Lord" but not in the sense you're talking about. The fear spoken about is a deep respect and reverence.
I grew up in a succession of cultish Southern Baptist/ Pentecostal churches. I was filled with so much fear of death and Hell it almost seems like it happened to someone else. Terrible thing to do to a kid. I was driven in tears to the altar at a tent revival at age 7 by the certainty that I was going to Hell. Maybe when you grow up you come to call that fear something else but it's always there.
 

Meriweather

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How is it you know that with certainty? Where in the Bible has any writer identified the stories are theme as opposed to literal rendering?
Ever study Judaism with people who know Hebrew?
 

buttercup

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Consolation for the certainty of death for themselves and everyone they love. They cannot cope with the possibility that their parents and grandparents no longer exist in any meaningful form. Never underestimate how much these people fear death. For this reason I am loath to attack anyone's personal faith. I keep all my criticism on the point where faith intersects politics.
I don't fear death, as a believer. And I didn't fear death when I was an unbeliever. Why should I have, when I didn't believe in God or heaven and hell? And why should a Christian fear death, when we believe that we will be with God in heaven after we die? As someone else mentioned, I can't think of any Christians I know who fear dying. :dunno:
The Christian obsession with the afterlife is 100% rooted in the fear of death. If you are not worried because you think an eternity of bliss awaits you then your faith has served the purpose for which it was designed. There's no shame in that but I can't do it anymore. The faith of my youth died from a thousand cuts inflicted by this cruel world we were born into.
You didn't get what I was saying. I don't know any Christians who became a believer out of fear of death. That makes no sense, because when you're an unbeliever you don't believe there is anything to fear. When you die, that's it, that's all there is, right? So why would you fear death as an unbeliever? And once you become a believer, there's no need to fear because you will be with God in heaven. So what you're saying makes no sense. The only people who I have heard fear death are lifelong unbelievers who are on their deathbed and then have a last-minute conversion, out of fear that they were wrong.
And yet the bible mentions a reward for obedience as eternity in paradise and the punishment for disobedience as being condemned to living an eternity suffering in hell.

That is nothing but playing on peoples' fear and greed in order to get them to comply.

So if a person chooses to live a good life with no expectation of any reward of eternal bliss and no expectation of eternal punishment if he doesn't how does he compare to the person who lives a good life because he wants to live in eternal bliss as a reward or because he fears the eternal punishment ?
Actually, it's not about obedience. It's impossible for ANY human being to be "good" enough to get to heaven. We can try our hardest to obey God all the time, but we will inevitably fail if we try to do that on our own.

It's about receiving the gift of salvation and becoming born again, as opposed to going through life following rules or trying to be a "good person." That just doesn't work. The only way to transform one's character and life is to surrender to God and become a new creation. Then the good works and transformation will inevitably happen, because we are literally changed from the inside out.

And yeah I've heard your claim from atheists so many times. I have never met a Christian who came to God out of fear. It's always out of love. Yes, the bible talks about "fear of the Lord" but not in the sense you're talking about. The fear spoken about is a deep respect and reverence.
I grew up in a succession of cultish Southern Baptist/ Pentecostal churches. I was filled with so much fear of death and Hell it almost seems like it happened to someone else. Terrible thing to do to a kid. I was driven in tears to the altar at a tent revival at age 7 by the certainty that I was going to Hell. Maybe when you grow up you come to call that fear something else but it's always there.
That is not the way it's supposed to be, and it's very unfortunate that that was your experience. As it says in Romans 2:4, it's the kindness and goodness of God that lead people to repentance. Not fear of death and hell.
 

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