Redux: Foxfyre's Christianity, False Teachers, Faith and Reason

[loa]

I'm doing a redux on Foxfyre's post on Christianity, False Teachers, Faith and Reason. I thought it had the potential to be an excellent posting series and this is my effort to engage the questions.

First of all, Foxfyre - it looked like you asked at least twice about how does one tell if a person is a 'false teacher'. Please note I am only speaking of Christianity in these replies and I am sure other faiths may have an answer different than my own. But, as far as Christianity? It's pretty well laid out in the NT:

1. A false teacher denies the person and work of Jesus Christ

2. Jesus spoke about false teachers by complimenting and quoting Isaiah: a paraphrase would be, "...they honor me with their lips but their heart is far from me - they worship me in vain by teaching as doctrine the commandments of men". Jesus stressed that point by saying again that they leave off the commandment (note Jesus did not say commandments) of God and hold to the traditions of men.

3. False teachers do not do what God's will is.

4. And lastly, in a section talking about false teachers, the author noted that God is the author of peace, not confusion.

That's a pretty good start, in my opinion.

Also, I was interested in your expressions about faith and reason. It seems extraordinary to me to people try to throw reason to the dogs. I think faith can most definitely be informed by reason, yet the bottom line is the bottom line: faith is the hope in things we have not yet seen. Still - if anyone thinks their faith is not informed by reason? Then tell me how you are reading the Book and understanding it, making decisions about it. While I realize the Holy Spirit serves the function of teaching, our mental capabilities are the filters this is happening through - we are still thinking, reasoning about all of it. Seems simple enough to me!

K.

 

[pacer]

Still - if anyone thinks their faith is not informed by reason? Then tell me how you are reading the Book and understanding it, making decisions about it.

Faith is not about a system of beliefs or reading the Book and understanding it. Even the illiterate have faith. It is a relationship with Christ; putting ones trust in Christ as Lord and Savior.

 

[loa]

Hi Pacer

Faith is not about a system of beliefs or reading the Book and understanding it. Even the illiterate have faith. It is a relationship with Christ; putting ones trust in Christ as Lord and Savior.

Well, I agree with that. I guess I was speaking toward the idea of how faith and reason work together. Even for the illiterate, or those who do not read the Book? I would still stay if they are thinking about their relationship with Jesus, they are using reason to inform their faith.

I don't know, Pacer - the word itself means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

For myself, it means I hold hope in things I have not seen yet. I haven't seen Jesus yet, but I really have faith he is who he says he is and will do what he says he will do. I have a spiritual acknowledgement of that truth, but my reason also tells me my position is not 'unreasonable'. ie: scores of believers I can fellowship with, books, lessons, sermons, etc.

On the other hand, I could have faith there is a rainbow hued unicorn living in the woods behind my house. I may sincerely believe this; have a spiritual feeling that is has to be there but there would be very little appeal to my reason on the issue - I can't think of one person who would agree with me, meet with me on it; I can't find anything to read on the historicity of the unicorn - you see what I mean?

So, still - faith is faith, but it can be informed by reason.

K.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

So who's an example of an 'false teacher'?

 

[pacer]

Hi loa

For myself, it means I hold hope in things I have not seen yet. I haven't seen Jesus yet, but I really have faith he is who he says he is and will do what he says he will do. I have a spiritual acknowledgement of that truth, but my reason also tells me my position is not 'unreasonable'. ie: scores of believers I can fellowship with, books, lessons, sermons, etc.

You have a relationship with Christ as Lord and Savior. You have faith in Jesus even though you have not seen him. You put your trust in Christ. You do not have a relationship with a unicorn as lord and savior. You do not put your faith and trust in a unicorn even though you have not seen it.

Hebrews 11 NCV - What Is Faith?

 

[loa]

Because I Know said:
So who's an example of an 'false teacher'?

Hah! I am certain any specific answer I gave could cause a tedious fire storm of yea's and nay's. So, I'll skirt just a bit and give an example instead:

If someone were to tell me they were a Christian teacher, yet they denied the work and person of Jesus Christ, I would have to say they were a false teacher. When I say work and person of Jesus Christ, I mean the entirely orthodox idea - Jesus as Son of God; resurrected from death and the source of salvation of all who seek it.

Did you have someone or a particular scenario in mind?


K.

 

[loa]

Hi Pacer (I must be tired, last time I said Hi loa, lol)

You said:
You have a relationship with Christ as Lord and Savior. You have faith in Jesus even though you have not seen him. You put your trust in Christ. You do not have a relationship with a unicorn as lord and savior. You do not put your faith and trust in a unicorn even though you have not seen it.

Hebrews 11 NCV - What Is Faith?

That's an excellent example, Pacer. And I do not think we are disagreeing at all. The only point I am trying to make is this - to me? Any time someone thinks about their faith; decides their course of action about faith; decides what to trust in - reason plays a role in those things. That doesn't negate what faith is. I think it works with it.

K.

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[pacer]

That's an excellent example, Pacer. And I do not think we are disagreeing at all. The only point I am trying to make is this - to me? Any time someone thinks about their faith; decides their course of action about faith; decides what to trust in - reason plays a role in those things. That doesn't negate what faith is. I think it works with it.

Does reason necessarily play a role or is it blind faith?

"Hebrews defines faith as “the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1, NAS). As Jesus explained it to Thomas: “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed” (John 20:29). So faith, as commended in God’s Word, is being sure about something that wasn’t witnessed firsthand (including creation, Hebrews 11:3), or that cannot be seen now, or that is yet to be revealed.

By this definition, all faith is blind! If we can see something, then faith is no longer operative.

Hebrews

 

[Chuckt]

1. A false teacher denies the person and work of Jesus Christ

A false teacher can also tell you some truth because if they only said false things, you would say, "that is rediculous" and never believe them.

I didn't follow Jim Jones but some say he started out as an evangelical and once taught correct theology. I didn't verify that.

King James Bible
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

You could have a false teacher go to the correct church, learn the right things to say and then lead people away to draw disciples after himself and then do a bait and switch.

 

[Gadawg73]

Many so called "Christians" do not do or even know what "God's will" is.
They have to have someone else dictate to them what that is.

 

[Gadawg73]

Faith is nothing without action. Jesus did not sit on his ass and think all day. He went out into the community and gave everyone confidence and hope.

 

[strollingbones]

So who's an example of an 'false teacher'?

joel osteen

benny hinn

bruno groning

jim and tammy faye baker

swaggart

oral roberts

the list just goes on and on

 

[strollingbones]

Faith is nothing without action. Jesus did not sit on his ass and think all day. He went out into the community and gave everyone confidence and hope.

are you sure about that.....bible says you cannot be saved by actions.....only by faith....doesnt the bible say all one needs to do to be saved....is accept jesus as his or her savior?

this is certainly not a case of actions speaking louder than words now is it?

 

[strollingbones]

i would include franklin graham on that list and his father billy graham

 

[Avatar4321]

Faith is nothing without action. Jesus did not sit on his ass and think all day. He went out into the community and gave everyone confidence and hope.

are you sure about that.....bible says you cannot be saved by actions.....only by faith....doesnt the bible say all one needs to do to be saved....is accept jesus as his or her savior?

this is certainly not a case of actions speaking louder than words now is it?

The question then is how does one accept Jesus as the Savior? We do this by exercising faith and repenting of our sins. When we have done that we enter a covenant with the Lord through Baptism and can recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

In other words, it requires action.

 

[pacer]

We do this by exercising faith and repenting of our sins.

How exactly do we repent our sins? Prayer? Confession?

 

[Avatar4321]

We do this by exercising faith and repenting of our sins.

How exactly do we repent our sins? Prayer? Confession?

First, by recognizing it. Second, by confessing it, and third by turning away from it completely. The third part is the most difficult part. But through the Atonement of Jesus Christ and the grace of God, it can be accomplished. I know because I've have experience repenting.

 

[pacer]

Are you talking about confessing to a priest or minister or to those we have sinned against?