Rand Paul vs. Dick Cheney

[NoTeaPartyPleez]

Who do you agree with?

SEN. RAND PAUL:
I think the same questions could be asked of those who supported the Iraq War. You know, were they right in their predictions? Were there weapons of mass destruction there? That’s what the war was sold on. Was democracy easily achievable? Was the war won in 2005, when many of these people said it was won? They didn’t really, I think, understand the civil war that would break out. And what’s going on now -- I don’t blame on President Obama. Has he really got the solution? Maybe there is no solution. But I do blame the Iraq War on the chaos that is in the Middle East. I also blame those who are for the Iraq War for emboldening Iran. These are the same people now who are petrified of what Iran may become, and I understand some of their worry.

Cheney,

a leading advocate of military action in Iraq during the presidency of George W. Bush, hit back sharply against Paul's warnings about too much U.S. military action overseas.

"If we spend our time debating what happened 11 or 12 years ago, we're going to miss the threat that is growing and that we do face. Rand Paul, with all due respect, is basically an isolationist. He doesn't believe we ought to be involved in that part of the world. I think it's absolutely essential,"

"What I would do now," he said, "is, among other things, be realistic about the nature of the threat. When we're arguing over 300 advisers when the request had been for 20,000 in order to do the job right, I'm not sure we've really addressed the problem. I would definitely be helping the resistance up in Syria, in ISIS's back yard, with training and weapons and so forth, in order to be able to do a more effective job on that end of the party."
Dick Cheney and Rand Paul clash over Iraq - The Washington Post


I agree with Rand Paul, I would like to see what everybody regardless of political persuasion thinks, but I am particularly interested in what and who conservative republicans on this forum favor.

Ah, the choice between a flea & a louse; neither.

Except that history has proven Paul to be right and Cheney to be wrong. Give credit where credit is due.

 

[NoTeaPartyPleez]

Rand is following in his father's steps on this one and he's right. Let's quote some of the people in 2003 and 2004 who said that after we withdrew troops from Iraq it would only be a short matter of time before sectarian violence went into overdrive again and into outright civil war:

The thing is that in the entire time since December 2011 there's been a continuation of violence.:

BAGHDAD – Here is a look at the some of the deadliest attacks in Iraq since the withdrawal of U.S. troops on Dec. 18, 2011:

— May 27, 2013: A wave of car bombings tears through mostly Shiite Muslim neighborhoods of the Baghdad area, leaving at least 66 people dead.

— May 21, 2013: Car bombing at a Sunni mosque kills at least 20 people.

— May 20, 2013: A wave of attacks, some at markets and in rush hour crowds, kills 113 people in Shiite and Sunni areas.

— May 17, 2013: Bombs rip through Sunni areas in Baghdad and surrounding areas, killing at least 76 people.

— May 16, 2013: Car bombs hit Shiite neighborhoods in Baghdad and attacks elsewhere in the country leave 21 people dead.

— May 15, 2013: A car bomb goes off near a bus station in Baghdad's main Shiite district, the deadliest of explosions that killed at least 33 people nationwide.

— April 29, 2013: A wave of car bomb blasts tears through Shiite areas south of Baghdad, killing at least 36.

— April 25, 2013: More than 40 people are reported killed in fighting in the key northern city of Mosul.

— April 24, 2013: Clashes between the army and armed Sunni tribesmen who sealed off a central Iraqi town kill 22 people.

— April 23, 2013: Security forces storm a Sunni protest camp in the north, sparking deadly clashes in several towns, which combined with other attacks leave 56 people dead.

— April 18, 2013: A suicide bomber detonated explosives at a Baghdad cafe crowded with young people, killing 32 people.

— April 15, 2013: At least 36 are killed in string of attacks across the country ahead of provincial elections.

— April 6, 2013: A suicide bomber blows himself up at a lunch hosted by a Sunni candidate ahead of regional elections, killing 20 people.

— Mar. 19, 2013: Insurgents carry out a wave of bombings that kills at least 65 people on the eve of the 10th anniversary of the U.S.-led invasion. An al-Qaida in Iraq front group claims responsibility.

— Mar. 14, 2013: Militants unleash a carefully planned assault on the Justice Ministry, killing 30.

— Mar. 4, 2013: Gunmen attack a convoy of Syrian soldiers who had crossed into Iraq for refuge, killing 48.

— Feb. 17, 2013: Car bombs tear through shopping areas in Shiite neighborhoods in Baghdad, killing at least 37.

— Jan. 23, 2013: A suicide bomber strikes a packed funeral ceremony at a Shiite mosque in northern Iraq, killing at least 25.

— Jan. 17, 2013: Insurgents unleash a string of bomb attacks mainly targeting Shiite Muslim pilgrims across Iraq, killing at least 26.

— Jan. 16, 2013: A wave of bombings against the offices of a major Kurdish party and Kurdish security forces headquarters in Kirkuk province kills at least 33.

— Nov. 27, 2012: Insurgents launch attacks against Shiite mosques, security forces, and other targets in central and northern Iraq, killing at least 30.

— Nov. 6, 2012: A suicide bomber detonates his explosives-laden car near a military base north of Baghdad, killing at least 33.

— Sept. 9, 2012: Insurgents gun down soldiers at an army post, bomb police recruits waiting in line to apply for jobs, and stage other attacks that kill 92.

— Aug. 16, 2012: A blistering string of bombings and shootings across the country kills at least 93.

— July 23, 2012: Attacks aimed largely at security forces kill 115 in the country's deadliest single day in two years.

— July 3, 2012: Bombs pound six cities and towns, killing some 40 and raising suspicion that security forces may be assisting attacks on Shiites.

— June 13, 2012: Car bombs target an annual Shiite pilgrimage, killing 72 people in 16 separate explosions.

— April 19, 2012: Bombs rip through 10 Iraqi cities, killing at least 30 and shattering a month of relative calm. Al-Qaida later says the attacks aimed to punish the Shiite-led government and its allies.

— March 20, 2012: Insurgents bent on derailing an Arab League meeting in Baghdad kill 46 in attacks on Shiite pilgrims in the holy city of Karbala, bombings in Kirkuk, and strikes on security and government officials around the country.

— Feb. 23, 2012: Attackers kill at least 55 as car bombs go off near an elementary school in the town of Musayyib, a restaurant in a Shiite neighborhood in Baghdad, and various checkpoints and secure areas.

— Jan. 28, 2012: A suicide car bomber strikes a Shiite funeral procession, killing 33 in southwestern Baghdad.

— Jan. 14, 2012: A bomb tears through a procession of Shiite pilgrims in southern Iraq, killing at least 53.

— Jan. 5, 2012: Coordinated bombings target Shiite Muslims, killing 78 in Baghdad and near the southern city of Nasiriyah, just days before a Shiite holy day.

— Dec. 22, 2011: Attackers hit markets, cafes and government buildings in mostly Shiite neighborhoods of Baghdad, killing 69 people.


So WTF?

A look at some of the deadliest attacks in Iraq since the 2011 US troop pullout
A look at some of the deadliest attacks in Iraq since the 2011 US troop pullout | Fox News

 

[Pheonixops]

Do nothing? fine... then get ready for $8.00 per gallon gasoline.

I don't think that it will be that high, but just say it is, do you think that the possibility of $8.00 per gallon justifies sending 20k of our military over there just so we can keep the price of oil down? Do you know that China already receives approximately 50% of Iraq's oil? Do you know that China has invested billions in Iraq? How come they don't seem to be in panic mode?

$6 per gallon gas will cripple not only our economy but the economy of the world beyond repair. So the answer to your question is a reluctant ...yes. If the cost of oil rises too high for China you will see them step up as well. Is China in panic mode? I don't know. Do you?

I don't think they are, here's an interesting article that addresses China and Iraq regarding oil.
EconoMonitor : EconoMonitor » The ISIS Caliphate: How Much Will it Cost the U.S., China and the Rest of the World?

 

[Peach]

Who do you agree with?

SEN. RAND PAUL:
I think the same questions could be asked of those who supported the Iraq War. You know, were they right in their predictions? Were there weapons of mass destruction there? That’s what the war was sold on. Was democracy easily achievable? Was the war won in 2005, when many of these people said it was won? They didn’t really, I think, understand the civil war that would break out. And what’s going on now -- I don’t blame on President Obama. Has he really got the solution? Maybe there is no solution. But I do blame the Iraq War on the chaos that is in the Middle East. I also blame those who are for the Iraq War for emboldening Iran. These are the same people now who are petrified of what Iran may become, and I understand some of their worry.

Cheney,

a leading advocate of military action in Iraq during the presidency of George W. Bush, hit back sharply against Paul's warnings about too much U.S. military action overseas.

"If we spend our time debating what happened 11 or 12 years ago, we're going to miss the threat that is growing and that we do face. Rand Paul, with all due respect, is basically an isolationist. He doesn't believe we ought to be involved in that part of the world. I think it's absolutely essential,"

"What I would do now," he said, "is, among other things, be realistic about the nature of the threat. When we're arguing over 300 advisers when the request had been for 20,000 in order to do the job right, I'm not sure we've really addressed the problem. I would definitely be helping the resistance up in Syria, in ISIS's back yard, with training and weapons and so forth, in order to be able to do a more effective job on that end of the party."
Dick Cheney and Rand Paul clash over Iraq - The Washington Post


I agree with Rand Paul, I would like to see what everybody regardless of political persuasion thinks, but I am particularly interested in what and who conservative republicans on this forum favor.

Ah, the choice between a flea & a louse; neither.

Except that history has proven Paul to be right and Cheney to be wrong. Give credit where credit is due.

We do not have the option of turning back the clock, thus, the US has a vested interest.

 

[Pheonixops]

Here's another factor regarding ISIS, it's the Kurds, they are well trained and well equipped and aren't going to take any shit from ISIS. So with resistance from the Shiites, the Iraqi Army, the Kurds, and the inevitable resistance from less radical Sunnis, I don't think that they need our "help".

The conflict has been a boon to Iraq's Kurds - 16 things about ISIS and Iraq you need to know - Vox

 

[Pheonixops]

The global oil market is concerned about ISIS' advance - 16 things about ISIS and Iraq you need to know - Vox

 

[Blackrook]

We abandoned Southeast Asia to the Communists and what happened? Millions killed in a genocide and millions more refugees.

If we abandon Iraq to these lunatics, we will have more of the same.

 

[Rambunctious]

I don't think that it will be that high, but just say it is, do you think that the possibility of $8.00 per gallon justifies sending 20k of our military over there just so we can keep the price of oil down? Do you know that China already receives approximately 50% of Iraq's oil? Do you know that China has invested billions in Iraq? How come they don't seem to be in panic mode?

$6 per gallon gas will cripple not only our economy but the economy of the world beyond repair. So the answer to your question is a reluctant ...yes. If the cost of oil rises too high for China you will see them step up as well. Is China in panic mode? I don't know. Do you?

I don't think they are, here's an interesting article that addresses China and Iraq regarding oil.
EconoMonitor : EconoMonitor » The ISIS Caliphate: How Much Will it Cost the U.S., China and the Rest of the World?

Interesting read but it makes me feel worse not better. Look! think about your life without the use of your automobile because you just can't afford to drive. Think about brown outs and the cost of everything that is shipped on wheels going up beyond your ability to pay. If we are going to turn a blind eye to Iraq now and pull back on oil production here the world will suffer economically. I guarantee you if we let this continue and Iraq falls we will have boots back on the ground one day soon. Obama will not always be the decider. We should nail this down now while it's still some what doable.

 

[HelenaHandbag]

We abandoned Southeast Asia to the Communists and what happened? Millions killed in a genocide and millions more refugees.

If we abandon Iraq to these lunatics, we will have more of the same.

We have our hands full with the quasi-communists in America.

Better our backyard be cleaned out first.

 

[HelenaHandbag]

$6 per gallon gas will cripple not only our economy but the economy of the world beyond repair. So the answer to your question is a reluctant ...yes. If the cost of oil rises too high for China you will see them step up as well. Is China in panic mode? I don't know. Do you?

I don't think they are, here's an interesting article that addresses China and Iraq regarding oil.
EconoMonitor : EconoMonitor » The ISIS Caliphate: How Much Will it Cost the U.S., China and the Rest of the World?

Interesting read but it makes me feel worse not better. Look! think about your life without the use of your automobile because you just can't afford to drive. Think about brown outs and the cost of everything that is shipped on wheels going up beyond your ability to pay. If we are going to turn a blind eye to Iraq now and pull back on oil production here the world will suffer economically. I guarantee you if we let this continue and Iraq falls we will have boots back on the ground one day soon. Obama will not always be the decider. We should nail this down now while it's still some what doable.

Or we could get a government that is serious about development of American energy interests.

 

[Pheonixops]

$6 per gallon gas will cripple not only our economy but the economy of the world beyond repair. So the answer to your question is a reluctant ...yes. If the cost of oil rises too high for China you will see them step up as well. Is China in panic mode? I don't know. Do you?

I don't think they are, here's an interesting article that addresses China and Iraq regarding oil.
EconoMonitor : EconoMonitor » The ISIS Caliphate: How Much Will it Cost the U.S., China and the Rest of the World?

Interesting read but it makes me feel worse not better. Look! think about your life without the use of your automobile because you just can't afford to drive. Think about brown outs and the cost of everything that is shipped on wheels going up beyond your ability to pay. If we are going to turn a blind eye to Iraq now and pull back on oil production here the world will suffer economically. I guarantee you if we let this continue and Iraq falls we will have boots back on the ground one day soon. Obama will not always be the decider. We should nail this down now while it's still some what doable.

Good points, I found this interesting:


"Iraq's production last year ran at around 3 million bpd, up a touch on 2012. The slowdown in Iraq, plus disruption in Libyan supply and Iranian sanctions, allowed other OPEC members - chiefly Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates - to avoid large cutbacks in output."

OPEC has for years been able to defer difficult issues over how it divides production, as oil prices have stayed high. Officials' relaxed view of Iraqi growth is likely to change if and when Libya and Iran return.

"Iraqi production did not really grow last year but they seem to be making some sort of headway this year," said an OPEC source. "With Iraq increasing, there are issues in terms of who might have to cut back." .


oil production | Iraq Business News

"Bloomberg News on June 16. That’s 11 percent more than this year’s average and would come close to matching a three-decade high reached in February. OPEC’s second-largest producer shipped 5.43 million barrels from Basrah on June 11, Iraqi Oil Minister Abdul Kareem al-Luaibi said in Vienna the following day. "

"“The only infrastructure that is currently producing and supplying international markets is in the south and will remain untouched,” Kyle Stelma, managing director of Dubai-based Dunia Frontier Consultants, which researches Iraq for clients, said by phone yesterday. “They are systematically increasing production and export capacity, so, on average, we should keep seeing new monthly records being set.”

Iraq Crude Exports Surge in South While Violence Hits North - Bloomberg

 

[Pheonixops]

I don't think they are, here's an interesting article that addresses China and Iraq regarding oil.
EconoMonitor : EconoMonitor » The ISIS Caliphate: How Much Will it Cost the U.S., China and the Rest of the World?

Interesting read but it makes me feel worse not better. Look! think about your life without the use of your automobile because you just can't afford to drive. Think about brown outs and the cost of everything that is shipped on wheels going up beyond your ability to pay. If we are going to turn a blind eye to Iraq now and pull back on oil production here the world will suffer economically. I guarantee you if we let this continue and Iraq falls we will have boots back on the ground one day soon. Obama will not always be the decider. We should nail this down now while it's still some what doable.

Or we could get a government that is serious about development of American energy interests.

I found this article pretty interesting:

Iraq and oil: The country's crisis should make us thankful for America's oil boom.

 

[JWBooth]