Zone1 Question for Christians

[BULLDOG]

And therein lies the rub. God doesn't say, "Here's proof, now believe in me", because that's not faith at all. He gives proof when faith says, "I don't understand everything, but I certainly know I'm a sinner and so I'm going to believe what you tell me and trust you to save me".

And why would you choose one god over another? They all promise wonderful things to those who believe them. Do you flip a coin, or draw straws to decide which diety you decide to worship? What criteria do you use to make that choice?

 

[hadit]

After being tortured, having his family murdered, inflicted with terrible diseases, losing all he owned...

On a beer bet between God and the Devil
That God. Torturing his most loyal follower, murdering his creations by the million, attacking innocents over an argument with Pharaoh...
What a guy!

And, of course you ignore what those people were doing for generations before judgement fell.

 

[Meriweather]

Divine Right of Kings

Divine right is the notion that royalty is given divine sanction to rule. In the words of England's King James I (r. 1603–1625): “The State of MONARCHIE is the supremest thing upon earth: For Kings are not only GOD'S Lieutenants upon earth, and sit upon GOD'S throne, but even by GOD himself they are called GODS.”

Old news to me. Your point? My point is that government/political rulers want to be the top Being. They can't handle being questioned, so they put themselves above questioning.

Religion...the only Being to whom the individual answers is God. They will die before they pledge allegiance to any other power. It happened to the Maccabees brothers. It took place in the day of Caesar and early Christianity.

 

[hadit]

And why would you choose one god over another? They all promise wonderful things to those who believe them. Do you flip a coin, or draw straws to decide which diety you decide to worship? What criteria do you use to make that choice?

You go with the one that has a living relationship with you, not a dead set of rules you try to follow in the hope that you'll be good enough.

 

[BULLDOG]

I didn't say anything like that did I.

Flexible in our beliefs and differing doctrines sure sounds like just being sincere is an acceptable rout to God. Too bad a wide range of acceptable routs to god is specifically discredited by the bible. .

 

[BULLDOG]

You go with the one that has a living relationship with you, not a dead set of rules you try to follow in the hope that you'll be good enough.

A living relationship? As determined by your emotions?

 

[Foxfyre]

That is certainly the belief that many have expressed. Yours is just a different wording for "it doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you are sincere". That is contrary to Christian Cannon. It makes a mockery of "one God, one rout to salvation. "

Consider.

Catholic doctrine is the bread and wine at communion becomes the substance of the body and blood of Jesus the Christ, i.e. transubstantiation.

Episcopal doctrine is that Jesus the Christ is present alongside the substance of the bread and wine, i.e. consubstantiation.

Most Protestants look at the bread and wine as symbolic of the body and blood of Jesus the Christ and when they are partaken, it is a memorial service, i.e. in memory of the sacrifice of the body and blood shed for the remission of our sins.

Jesus is quoted as saying at the last supper: Luke 22:
19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Do you think God condemns the sincerity of one of those beliefs over the others? That it is really important to our salvation?

In the original King James translation of Isaiah 45:ll ". . .Thus sayeth the Lord. . .concerning the works of my hand command ye me. . . ."

In the Revised Standard Version translation: ". . .Thus says the Lord. . .Will you question me about my children, or command me concerning the work of my hands? . . ."

In some modern paraphrased translations: ". . .How dare you command me concerning the work of my hands?. . .

Which is to be taught? The original translation? Or what theologians believe to the a more accurate translation? Does it really matter all that much to our salvation?

Many Christians take the 6 day Creation of the Earth story literally and believe it. Many Christians believe the Bible teaches a flat Earth concept.

Many other Christians take the 6 day Creation of the Earth story as symbolic--no less a miracle of God but a very long miracle and they accept that the ancient ones had no way to know of a round Earth or other heavenly bodies because what they saw/experienced was flat.

Now I ask you. Who on Earth has the authority to dictate to another person what they are required to think or believe? We can share what we think and believe and some of it will likely be right and some of it likely be wrong. Jesus did not command us to be correct in our theology but we are commanded to love God with our whole heart, soul and mind and to love others as we wish to be loved. His harshest criticism was of the Pharisees who religiously obeyed all the rules, dogma, and doctrines of their religion but neglected what God really wants from us.

And I'm pretty sure that God is big enough that nobody is qualified to know exactly how He is going to accomplish anything including how people are drawn to Him and to Heaven.

 

[Meriweather]

That is certainly the belief that many have expressed. Yours is just a different wording for "it doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you are sincere". That is contrary to Christian Cannon. It makes a mockery of "one God, one rout to salvation. "

Ask anyone of the LDS faith on this board and they will assure you that it absolutely matters to me what they believe on some issues--and that I don't care how sincere they are when they go tromping over the holy ground of others. That being said, do I believe God reaches out to us wherever we are? Yes, I do. Do I believe some of what LDS members do in the name of their faith will prevent them from getting into heaven? No, I do not.

It is our response to God that matters, not our response to a religion.

Just because Baptists believe in only one route to heaven does not make it so. I have already explained the Catholic and Orthodox view on this. Muslims and Jews believe the same--God and God alone decides who enters into heaven--their faith doesn't matter. According to Pew Research, the majority of Americans say that other faiths can lead to eternal life.

Any chance you could not remain a Baptist because you could not believe it had to be the Baptist Way or the Highway? Remember what I said earlier that it is hardwired into us to be right. You couldn't remain a Baptist or close to God who you thought was chucking so many into hell? You didn't feel that was right, and, truly, we are meant to be right. It's a good thing.

It is hard to admit when we are wrong, which may be why Catholics and Orthodox find Confession such a blessing. It helps us to overcome our greatest weakness, recognizing and admitting when we are wrong. It happens.

 

[Dadoalex]

And, of course you ignore what those people were doing for generations before judgement fell.

So not believing in God is justification for murder?
Quite the religion you have there.

 

[Dadoalex]

And, of course you ignore what those people were doing for generations before judgement fell.

Babylon was destroyed because the Babylonians were building a tower to heaven.
God didn't like that.
So God decided that everyone needed to die.
BUT
That wasn't enough.
In addition to killing everyone God decided that all the peoples of the world would have different languages and customs thus creating conflict and distrust among his "children."

Quite a god you have there.

 

[Dadoalex]

Old news to me. Your point? My point is that government/political rulers want to be the top Being. They can't handle being questioned, so they put themselves above questioning.

Religion...the only Being to whom the individual answers is God. They will die before they pledge allegiance to any other power. It happened to the Maccabees brothers. It took place in the day of Caesar and early Christianity.

So you are ignoring 6000 years of history because it doesn't agree with your worldview?
Typical.

 

[Meriweather]

So you are ignoring 6000 years of history because it doesn't agree with your worldview?
Typical.

On the contrary. I studied six thousand years of history which is the reason for my view.

 

[Foxfyre]

Flexible in our beliefs and differing doctrines sure sounds like just being sincere is an acceptable rout to God. Too bad a wide range of acceptable routs to god is specifically discredited by the bible. .

Well I can't change what you hear. But I didn't say anything like that.

 

[BULLDOG]

Consider.

Catholic doctrine is the bread and wine at communion becomes the substance of the body and blood of Jesus the Christ, i.e. transubstantiation.

Episcopal doctrine is that Jesus the Christ is present alongside the substance of the bread and wine, i.e. consubstantiation.

Most Protestants look at the bread and wine as symbolic of the body and blood of Jesus the Christ and when they are partaken, it is a memorial service, i.e. in memory of the sacrifice of the body and blood shed for the remission of our sins.

Jesus is quoted as saying at the last supper: Luke 22:
19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Do you think God condemns the sincerity of one of those beliefs over the others? That it is really important to our salvation?

In the original King James translation of Isaiah 45:ll ". . .Thus sayeth the Lord. . .concerning the works of my hand command ye me. . . ."

In the Revised Standard Version translation: ". . .Thus says the Lord. . .Will you question me about my children, or command me concerning the work of my hands? . . ."

In some modern paraphrased translations: ". . .How dare you command me concerning the work of my hands?. . .

Which is to be taught? The original translation? Or what theologians believe to the a more accurate translation? Does it really matter all that much to our salvation?

Many Christians take the 6 day Creation of the Earth story literally and believe it. Many Christians believe the Bible teaches a flat Earth concept.

Many other Christians take the 6 day Creation of the Earth story as symbolic--no less a miracle of God but a very long miracle and they accept that the ancient ones had no way to know of a round Earth or other heavenly bodies because what they saw/experienced was flat.

Now I ask you. Who on Earth has the authority to dictate to another person what they are required to think or believe? We can share what we think and believe and some of it will likely be right and some of it likely be wrong. Jesus did not command us to be correct in our theology but we are commanded to love God with our whole heart, soul and mind and to love others as we wish to be loved. His harshest criticism was of the Pharisees who religiously obeyed all the rules, dogma, and doctrines of their religion but neglected what God really wants from us.

And I'm pretty sure that God is big enough that nobody is qualified to know exactly how He is going to accomplish anything including how people are drawn to Him and to Heaven.

Got it. You can ignore the parts you don't like. That is the attitude of many people who call themselved Christians, even though the bible specifically says that is not allowed. Religon becomes much like a visit to the Golden Corral where you choose the selections you want, and pass up the ones that aren't as appealing.

 

[Foxfyre]

Got it. You can ignore the parts you don't like. That is the attitude of many people who call themselved Christians, even though the bible specifically says that is not allowed. Religon becomes much like a visit to the Golden Corral where you choose the selections you want, and pass up the ones that aren't as appealing.

Again I didn't say anything like that. But then I try not to twist the argument into what I want somebody to have said and ignore what they actually said.

 

[BULLDOG]

Well I can't change what you hear. But I didn't say anything like that.

Forgive my mistake. Please point out where the bible says we are allowed to pick out the parts we like, and ignore the less appealing parts.

 

[BULLDOG]

Again I didn't say anything like that. But then I try not to twist the argument into what I want somebody to have said and ignore what they actually said.

You chose those words. They mean what they mean. If they don't convey what you wanted to convey, then perhaps you should try again.

 

[Foxfyre]

You chose those words. They mean what they mean. If they don't convey what you wanted to convey, then perhaps you should try again.

I did say what I meant. You inferred something very different from what I said.

 

[Foxfyre]

Forgive my mistake. Please point out where the bible says we are allowed to pick out the parts we like, and ignore the less appealing parts.

I don't know how to do that and I certainly didn't say that, suggest that, infer that, imply that.

 

[Meriweather]

Got it. You can ignore the parts you don't like. That is the attitude of many people who call themselved Christians, even though the bible specifically says that is not allowed. Religon becomes much like a visit to the Golden Corral where you choose the selections you want, and pass up the ones that aren't as appealing.

Could have Ignoring the parts you didn't like been where faith/belief was lost?

When I was young I had an amazing experience of God, and came away from it not with the conviction "God loves me" (although He certainly does) but with the conviction "God loves all of us." It's just who He is.

What I could not understand is how the authors of the Old Testament could portray God as they did. After years, decades of study I realized they saw God just as I had. However, the change from Hebrew to English and from ancient Eastern culture to modern Western culture was the issue. Along the way I came across rabbis, time and again, saying scripture was not meant to be read, it was intended to be studied. For how long? Decades wasn't nearly long enough. It takes a lifetime.

People are not choosing and passing over. That's being mistaken for where people are in their studies.