Post A Message to The Future Here.

[MisterBeale]

Government has proven itself corrupt.

Why support corruption?

You can't tell folks that love the establishment, and have been trained all their lives, that it isn't.

No matter how much proof you give them, even if you give them concrete examples.

Belief in government, is sort of like belief in organized religion, it really has nothing to do with your belief in god.

Over time, institutions, necessarily, gather more wealth and power to themselves, this attracts more people that are attracted, not to the mission of the institutions, but to the wealth and power that the institution has amassed.

Necessarily, the more power and wealth any particular institution has amassed, whether it is a church, a non-profit, an monarchy, a government, a educational institution, a powerful elite family, whatever, they will seek to legalize, extra-legal means of corruption, to be above social norms.

While the rest of society, is still socially conditioned to still depend on all of these institutions, regardless of how much power and wealth they amass. And, as I have pointed out, the more they amass, the more they will, necessarily, legalize, or hide their corruption. Lawfare.

If the whole social establishment is well structured, different institutions, represented by different stake holders, will have different means to counteract each other, and their competing interests. If it doesn't? Like long lived organism, they will all act like parasites and cancers, devouring a dying entity from the inside, till it is so weakened, it falls.

Something, everyone in this thread, sort of knows, from our study of history. . . THAT, seems to the point of the thread.


I don't think populists, whether they exist in the GOP, or in the far-left, necessarily, think, "the man," is necessarily evil, or demonizes all government. I think what they have a problem with, is the psychopaths that use the corruption of institutions, as means to serve their stake holders & themselves, rather than the interests of the pubic.

In the 50's & 60's, if we remember history, is was the beatniks and hippies that didn't trust government, "the man". . . So, blaming one party or another, for "not trusting government?" Is a misnomer. The founding fathers, given their experience with the KING? THEY didn't trust government, that is the whole idea of the Constitution to begin with.


I would posit? The day that you DO begin to trust big Corporations, and Big Government? Is the day you have forgotten your American Heritage.

Jefferson was a Democrat-Republican, which, I guess it could be said he was for states rights, and against big government. Parties were quite a bit different at the founding.

Democratic-Republican Party - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Folks often paraphrase this; "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

https://www.monticello.org/research-education/thomas-jefferson-encyclopedia/when-government-fears-people-there-liberty-spurious-quotation/

Which the establishment controlling Monticello calls, "spurious." I suppose, but, if you understand the tension between Big Government, Big Banking, and Big Industrial interest, versus liberty lovers, it isn't too far off, in some folks opinion.

". . . This quotation is vaguely similar to Jefferson's comment in an 1825 letter to William Short: "Some are whigs, liberals, democrats, call them what you please. Others are tories, serviles, aristocrats, &c. The latter fear the people, and wish to transfer all power to the higher classes of society; the former consider the people as the safest depository of power in the last resort; they cherish them therefore, and wish to leave in them all the powers to the exercise of which they are competent."[5] To date, however, the most likely source of this quotation appears to be a series of debates on socialism published in 1914, in which John Basil Barnhill said, "Where the people fear the government you have tyranny. Where the government fears the people you have liberty."

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Yeah, so did you!

Now when you start the Civil War please remember when you swing from the gallows you asked for it not me!

Actually no

 

[there4eyeM]

There is no tyranny like the tyranny of violent revolution and terror in the streets. Wishing for it is sick. Working for it is justly a capital offense.

 

[westwall]

There is no tyranny like the tyranny of violent revolution and terror in the streets. Wishing for it is sick. Working for it is justly a capital offense.

What about the banal evil of tyrannical government grinding the citizenry under their boots?

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

You can't tell folks that love the establishment, and have been trained all their lives, that it isn't.

No matter how much proof you give them, even if you give them concrete examples.

Belief in government, is sort of like belief in organized religion, it really has nothing to do with your belief in god.

Over time, institutions, necessarily, gather more wealth and power to themselves, this attracts more people that are attracted, not to the mission of the institutions, but to the wealth and power that the institution has amassed.

Necessarily, the more power and wealth any particular institution has amassed, whether it is a church, a non-profit, an monarchy, a government, a educational institution, a powerful elite family, whatever, they will seek to legalize, extra-legal means of corruption, to be above social norms.

While the rest of society, is still socially conditioned to still depend on all of these institutions, regardless of how much power and wealth they amass. And, as I have pointed out, the more they amass, the more they will, necessarily, legalize, or hide their corruption. Lawfare.

If the whole social establishment is well structured, different institutions, represented by different stake holders, will have different means to counteract each other, and their competing interests. If it doesn't? Like long lived organism, they will all act like parasites and cancers, devouring a dying entity from the inside, till it is so weakened, it falls.

Something, everyone in this thread, sort of knows, from our study of history. . . THAT, seems to the point of the thread.


I don't think populists, whether they exist in the GOP, or in the far-left, necessarily, think, "the man," is necessarily evil, or demonizes all government. I think what they have a problem with, is the psychopaths that use the corruption of institutions, as means to serve their stake holders & themselves, rather than the interests of the pubic.

In the 50's & 60's, if we remember history, is was the beatniks and hippies that didn't trust government, "the man". . . So, blaming one party or another, for "not trusting government?" Is a misnomer. The founding fathers, given their experience with the KING? THEY didn't trust government, that is the whole idea of the Constitution to begin with.


I would posit? The day that you DO begin to trust big Corporations, and Big Government? Is the day you have forgotten your American Heritage.

Jefferson was a Democrat-Republican, which, I guess it could be said he was for states rights, and against big government. Parties were quite a bit different at the founding.

Democratic-Republican Party - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Folks often paraphrase this; "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

https://www.monticello.org/research-education/thomas-jefferson-encyclopedia/when-government-fears-people-there-liberty-spurious-quotation/

Which the establishment controlling Monticello calls, "spurious." I suppose, but, if you understand the tension between Big Government, Big Banking, and Big Industrial interest, versus liberty lovers, it isn't too far off, in some folks opinion.

". . . This quotation is vaguely similar to Jefferson's comment in an 1825 letter to William Short: "Some are whigs, liberals, democrats, call them what you please. Others are tories, serviles, aristocrats, &c. The latter fear the people, and wish to transfer all power to the higher classes of society; the former consider the people as the safest depository of power in the last resort; they cherish them therefore, and wish to leave in them all the powers to the exercise of which they are competent."[5] To date, however, the most likely source of this quotation appears to be a series of debates on socialism published in 1914, in which John Basil Barnhill said, "Where the people fear the government you have tyranny. Where the government fears the people you have liberty."

This Is What Put the Crack in the Liberty Bell

The anti-democratic elitist manifesto, the Constitution, was corrupt and impractical from the beginning. It was not abused, it was abuse of Americans' right to self-determination.

Electing is not voting; it is a forced choice of some arrogant know-it-all pre-owned politician to do all your voting for you. A republic is a foster government. The conceited lawmakers treat their citizens like pathetic and helpless, but wild and ignorant orphans who need to be adopted
by superior "wise stewards" in order to straighten them out.

 

[MisterBeale]

This Is What Put the Crack in the Liberty Bell

The anti-democratic elitist manifesto, the Constitution, was corrupt and impractical from the beginning. It was not abused, it was abuse of Americans' right to self-determination.

Electing is not voting; it is a forced choice of some arrogant know-it-all pre-owned politician to do all your voting for you. A republic is a foster government. The conceited lawmakers treat their citizens like pathetic and helpless, but wild and ignorant orphans who need to be adopted
by superior "wise stewards" in order to straighten them out.

That is. . . largely, true.

However, anyone who has lived among the larger populations of the unwashed, uneducated masses in the inner city, or among populations in large trailer parks, would tell you, that those motives were not, necessarily, coming from a place of bad intentions.

Much of the time, the problem we have in this society, and, indeed, on this website, is we assume the worst, of those whom have different experiences, or stake holder interests, than we do.

I will agree with you, that the qualifications to vote, were somewhat at odds, with the laws they placed on the population with regard to taxation, given the reasons that rank and file revolutionary soldiers fought the war, in the first place. And of course, this says nothing of the native Americans, the woman and slaves.

The reverse though? Expecting masses, who are very susceptible to the market influences, and the principles of PR, flattering, and emotion, whatever that was back in the day, to do the electing and representing themselves? Had its own dismal history, this was known to the founders. . .

Founders Online: Thomas Jefferson’s Addition to Note for Destutt de Tracy’s Tre …

Thomas Jefferson’s Addition to Note for Destutt de Tracy’s Treatise on Political Economy, [ca. 18 May 1816]

founders.archives.gov

 

[there4eyeM]

It's a matter of education.
People who don't want to be educated can't be.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Government has proven itself corrupt.

Why support corruption?

Why not take advantage of the fact of our democracy and FIX the fucker?

 

[AVG-JOE]

You can't tell folks that love the establishment, and have been trained all their lives, that it isn't.

No matter how much proof you give them, even if you give them concrete examples.

Belief in government, is sort of like belief in organized religion, it really has nothing to do with your belief in god.

You people have no clue as to the value of the gift that the writers of The Constitution gave us and you're pissing it away because you fear progress and sharing power in a multi-cultural society.

Pathetic.

 

[westwall]

Why not take advantage of the fact of our democracy and FIX the fucker?

Because the political class stole the vote.

There are efforts to regain that last bit of control but think about this for a minute, I play Minecraft with my daughter, we play on a server together.

There is a vote system to support the various servers out there.

It is easier to vote in a US electiin, than it is to vote for your favorite server in Minecraft.

Let that sink in for a minute.

 

[MisterBeale]

You people have no clue as to the value of the gift that the writers of The Constitution gave us and you're pissing it away because you fear progress and sharing power in a multi-cultural society.

Pathetic.

"You people?" Who the hell are, "You people?" You don't really even know who I am. I am not a "Republican," or a "Democrat."

You were the one that said;

It's too bad that The Republicans have been so damn successful in vilifying "Government".

I agree, The Constitution, WAS a gift, but a nefarious interest group, made up of lobbyists for private banking interests, and those men themselves, wrote the Sixteenth Amendment.

The original reason that our forefathers fought the revolutionary war, was around currency manipulation and taxation. IMO? They purposely left that type of shit OUT of the Constitution. So? If they had wanted income tax, they wouldn't have specifically FORBID it.

It is you, that are being "pathetic," trying to play a "no true Scotsman" fallacy with me, when I am the one that is more true to the explaining what the orginal intent was, than you. puh-lease. Sorry if that triggers you.

Your attacking me, and then trying to play that;

Divide and rule - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

THAT? Is precisely why we won't, as a nation, HAVE a future.
e pluribis unum pal.

. . . . as you said, pathetic.

Remember that old Navajo saying;

"When you point a finger, there are three fingers pointing back at you."

 

[westwall]

You people have no clue as to the value of the gift that the writers of The Constitution gave us and you're pissing it away because you fear progress and sharing power in a multi-cultural society.

Pathetic.

What a load of horse poo. No one is afraid of progress, and no one cares about sharing power in a multi cultural society.

Where did you come up with that screed?

What we want is the EQUALITY that was guaranteed by the COTUS.

Do you understand EQUALITY?

 

[AVG-JOE]

Obviously that is a retorical question... what I don't understand how voting republican is going to get us there.

They seem to want equality based on conformity to western Christian values and that is NOT equality and freedom.

Equality and Freedom means tolerating everyone who maintains basic social norms and keeps their hands and projectiles to themselves, no matter how weird or freaky we seem.

 

[westwall]

Obviously that is a retorical question... what I don't understand how voting republican is going to get us there.

They seem to want equality based on conformity to western Christian values and that is NOT equality and freedom.

Equality and Freedom means tolerating everyone who maintains basic social norms and keeps their hands and projectiles to themselves, no matter how weird or freaky we seem.

And the Democrats wish to arrange "equality" by making everyone except the ruling elite into serfs.

C'mon Joe, you are smarter than this.

 

[Synthaholic]

Governor Beto is killing it!

The average Texan is going to see a $150 reduction in energy costs each month as Governor O'Rourke scraps old crony- Republican sweetheart deal in favor of the national grid.

 

[AVG-JOE]

And the Democrats wish to arrange "equality" by making everyone except the ruling elite into serfs.

C'mon Joe, you are smarter than this.

I hear the rhetoric, but I see no evidence that there is any Democratic Party Policies or Positions that support that.

I do see Republican Policies and Positions that make for long lines at the voting booth and felons out of women seeking certain health services, with plenty more freedoms for the freaky among us on the table for chopping.

I think that they've bitten off more than the voters are willing to tolerate and, for once I agree with Mitch McConnell, I think the Republicans will be disappointed on November 23.

Ass-U-Me-ing of course they accept the results

 

[AVG-JOE]

It's a matter of education.
People who don't want to be educated can't be.

Education, education, and education are the three keys needed to start a Starship.

I like seeing some relief in the twisted education market in this country because SOMEthing was needed.

We need a fix to education access though, and the debt cancellation does nothing for that.

The government should pour tons research and development money in to all state schools, let everyone and anyone who can pass the academic standards for the school attend, and then tax them 10% or something for a fixed number of years to pay for it.

Let the private schools and the banks do what they do and never again bail out an individual borrower.


That would work.

 

[westwall]

I hear the rhetoric, but I see no evidence that there is any Democratic Party Policies or Positions that support that.

I do see Republican Policies and Positions that make for long lines at the voting booth and felons out of women seeking certain health services, with plenty more freedoms for the freaky among us on the table for chopping.

I think that they've bitten off more than the voters are willing to tolerate and, for once I agree with Mitch McConnell, I think the Republicans will be disappointed on November 23.

Ass-U-Me-ing of course they accept the results

The Green New Deal returns everyone who isn't uber wealthy to serfdom.

You can't travel. You can't eat meat. You can't own your own home, you must live in a collective apartment, etc.

You aren't seeing the evidence because you are choosing to not look at it.

 

[AVG-JOE]

I'm not seeing the evidence because there is none.

Do you have links to back up those claims from either the Democratic Party or a fairly neutral source?

 

[westwall]

I'm not seeing the evidence because there is none.

Do you have links to back up those claims from either the Democratic Party or a fairly neutral source?

Here, read it for yourself.

Text - H.Res.109 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): Recognizing the duty of the Federal Government to create a Green New Deal.

Text for H.Res.109 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): Recognizing the duty of the Federal Government to create a Green New Deal.

www.congress.gov