Poll: What should we do with guns?

[zeke]

The simple fact that as more guns are purchased, major crimes decline, kind of contradicts your hypothesis.

No, it doesn't, note i said "gun crime" not crime.

The majority of criminals buy their guns from legitimate dealers, who either get duped into selling to them, or who sell knowing its illegal.

No dealers= less guns

It would take time, but in 20 years, gun crime would be way down. Again, crime involving a gun.

...and it would have prevented what happened at Sandy Hook.

Guns were banned at Sandy Hook and it didn't prevent anything. Just more evidence that gun control laws don't prevent crime and may even encourage it. There are far too many firearms already here, and they are far too durable, for a ban to reduce access seriously without removing the ones people already own which would:
1. Be impossible
2. Start a bloodbath

Well ain't the above a crock of shit. First of all the shooter at Sandy Hook wasn't a criminal. Till he started killing people.

But you want to talk about what is criminal? What is criminal is that people like you support the right of people like the killers mom to walk in and buy however much firepower their pocket book can afford. And no one has any interest in what will happen with all that firepower.

You think the shooters mom was what YOU would call a responsible gun owner? Having those kinds of guns, unlocked, ammo at hand and with a mentally unstable kid in the house.

And you support the right to be stupid about guns. Like this shooters mom was. At least she paid for her stupidity. But so are a lot of other people that wanted nothing to do with her gun fetish. Fuk that.

 

[beretta304]

No, it doesn't, note i said "gun crime" not crime.

The majority of criminals buy their guns from legitimate dealers, who either get duped into selling to them, or who sell knowing its illegal.

No dealers= less guns

It would take time, but in 20 years, gun crime would be way down. Again, crime involving a gun.

...and it would have prevented what happened at Sandy Hook.

Guns were banned at Sandy Hook and it didn't prevent anything. Just more evidence that gun control laws don't prevent crime and may even encourage it. There are far too many firearms already here, and they are far too durable, for a ban to reduce access seriously without removing the ones people already own which would:
1. Be impossible
2. Start a bloodbath

Well ain't the above a crock of shit. First of all the shooter at Sandy Hook wasn't a criminal. Till he started killing people.

But you want to talk about what is criminal? What is criminal is that people like you support the right of people like the killers mom to walk in and buy however much firepower their pocket book can afford. And no one has any interest in what will happen with all that firepower.

You think the shooters mom was what YOU would call a responsible gun owner? Having those kinds of guns, unlocked, ammo at hand and with a mentally unstable kid in the house.

And you support the right to be stupid about guns. Like this shooters mom was. At least she paid for her stupidity. But so are a lot of other people that wanted nothing to do with her gun fetish. Fuk that.

Stereotype all gun owners over the mother's behavior. Do we stigmatize and label all lib posters here assholes because you're one?

 

[blackhawk]

You all do realize that a sick demented mind will just find another way to commit there insane acts don't you? Just for the hell of it I did a web search on how to build a bomb and got 499,000,000 results now if I could find that much on building a bomb don't you think people could use the web to get the gun or guns they wanted? Something to think about.

The fallacy here, as with the bad analogies of knives and baseball bats and even cars, is that it presumes the premeditated goal is murder and that that leads to the gun as a tool to do it.
In reality, it's the other way around.

No the mistake is thinking you can keep a sick mind bent on killing from doing it bad people set on doing bad things will find a way.

 

[candycorn]

Banning guns, would severely curtail the number of gun crimes, in time ,and it would have prevented what happened at Sandy Hook.

That being said, I dont think banning guns or banning types of guns, is the answer.

There is some truth to the statement that if you ban X,Y, and Z, only criminals wii get X,Y, and Z. As long as there is a demand, there will be supply.

You treat the weapons you wish to see less of on the streets the same way you treated cigarettes; you make it so unappealing to buy them that the deman wanes and the supply soon follows.

I coined the phrase "mayhem tax". I think if you put a few hundred dollar mayhem tax on things like MP9's you'd see fewer people buying them. When the guys who make them see their sales numbers drop, they produce less. So they and secondary producers of it and magazines, bullets, etc... produce less too. The untaxed "black market" then takes a hit as the forces of supply and demand take root there.

 

[SniperFire]

Banning guns, would severely curtail the number of gun crimes, in time ,and it would have prevented what happened at Sandy Hook.

That being said, I dont think banning guns or banning types of guns, is the answer.

There is some truth to the statement that if you ban X,Y, and Z, only criminals wii get X,Y, and Z. As long as there is a demand, there will be supply.

You treat the weapons you wish to see less of on the streets the same way you treated cigarettes; you make it so unappealing to buy them that the deman wanes and the supply soon follows.

I coined the phrase "mayhem tax". I think if you put a few hundred dollar mayhem tax on things like MP9's you'd see fewer people buying them. When the guys who make them see their sales numbers drop, they produce less. So they and secondary producers of it and magazines, bullets, etc... produce less too. The untaxed "black market" then takes a hit as the forces of supply and demand take root there.

Sounds like you would like to infringe the Constitutional right to bear arms.

 

[candycorn]

Leave the second amendment alone. We have sufficient gun laws on the books now.

Start banning these HIGH DEFINITION, hyper realistic, blood bath video games where kids can RAPE, STEAL and KILL everything in the game, INCLUDING CHILDREN AND POLICE, and get a handle on all the KILLING and culture of VIOLENT movies DRAMATIZING KILLING coming out of hollyweird. When was the last time these sick fuckers made a WHOLESOME movie that you could take the whole family to? When was the last movie that didn't have the word FUCK in it or some QUEER?

The problem is NOT gun ownership. The problem is the person WIELDING the gun and what has made them what they are. THAT is where the problem with this NEW culture of YOUNG KILLER gun violence is coming from. It's got NOTHING to do with the firearms or the laws governing them.

The same video games are available in nearly every advanced society that produces the consoles they are played on. Look it up.

Somehow, Finland doesn't seem to have a monthly massacre problem. Neither does Germany, Holland, Japan, Singapore, Australia, Austria, Russia, England, France, Spain, Luxembourg, Andorra, Italy, Belarus, Norway, Scotland, Wales, Brazil, Greece, Switzerland, Romania, Hungary, or Indonesia.

The only difference between their kids and our kids in this realm is that their country doesn't have this 2nd Amendment.

 

[beretta304]

Leave the second amendment alone. We have sufficient gun laws on the books now.

Start banning these HIGH DEFINITION, hyper realistic, blood bath video games where kids can RAPE, STEAL and KILL everything in the game, INCLUDING CHILDREN AND POLICE, and get a handle on all the KILLING and culture of VIOLENT movies DRAMATIZING KILLING coming out of hollyweird. When was the last time these sick fuckers made a WHOLESOME movie that you could take the whole family to? When was the last movie that didn't have the word FUCK in it or some QUEER?

The problem is NOT gun ownership. The problem is the person WIELDING the gun and what has made them what they are. THAT is where the problem with this NEW culture of YOUNG KILLER gun violence is coming from. It's got NOTHING to do with the firearms or the laws governing them.

The same video games are available in nearly every advanced society that produces the consoles they are played on. Look it up.

Somehow, Finland doesn't seem to have a monthly massacre problem. Neither does Germany, Holland, Japan, Singapore, Australia, Austria, Russia, England, France, Spain, Luxembourg, Andorra, Italy, Belarus, Norway, Scotland, Wales, Brazil, Greece, Switzerland, Romania, Hungary, or Indonesia.

The only difference between their kids and our kids in this realm is that their country doesn't have this 2nd Amendment.[/QUOTE]

You really want to stand by that when it was disproven yesterday? You can go look for the thread. It showed that stats. Try again.

 

[SniperFire]

Leave the second amendment alone. We have sufficient gun laws on the books now.

Start banning these HIGH DEFINITION, hyper realistic, blood bath video games where kids can RAPE, STEAL and KILL everything in the game, INCLUDING CHILDREN AND POLICE, and get a handle on all the KILLING and culture of VIOLENT movies DRAMATIZING KILLING coming out of hollyweird. When was the last time these sick fuckers made a WHOLESOME movie that you could take the whole family to? When was the last movie that didn't have the word FUCK in it or some QUEER?

The problem is NOT gun ownership. The problem is the person WIELDING the gun and what has made them what they are. THAT is where the problem with this NEW culture of YOUNG KILLER gun violence is coming from. It's got NOTHING to do with the firearms or the laws governing them.

The same video games are available in nearly every advanced society that produces the consoles they are played on. Look it up.

Somehow, Finland doesn't seem to have a monthly massacre problem. Neither does Germany, Holland, Japan, Singapore, Australia, Austria, Russia, England, France, Spain, Luxembourg, Andorra, Italy, Belarus, Norway, Scotland, Wales, Brazil, Greece, Switzerland, Romania, Hungary, or Indonesia.

The only difference between their kids and our kids in this realm is that their country doesn't have this 2nd Amendment.[/QUOTE]

You really want to stand by that when it was disproven yesterday? You can go look for the thread. It showed that stats. Try again.

People like 'candycorn' have no self respect and just say anything they feel can advance their agenda.

 

[zeke]

What should "we" do with guns. Is that the question?

Well, something like 20 of our fellow citizens will put their gun either in their mouth or against their temple and pull the trigger. Called suicide.

Is that what you are thinking?

Or yesterday, the dad in PA figured out what to do with his gun. Read all about it in the news. The "gun accident" wasn't pretty. Kids dead, dads devastated.

Why don't you post links about all the crimes that were stopped by gun owners yesterday. Must be hundreds of claims, you know with millions of crimes being stopped every year by gun owners.

 

[AmyNation]

The simple fact that as more guns are purchased, major crimes decline, kind of contradicts your hypothesis.

No, it doesn't, note i said "gun crime" not crime.

The majority of criminals buy their guns from legitimate dealers, who either get duped into selling to them, or who sell knowing its illegal.

No dealers= less guns

It would take time, but in 20 years, gun crime would be way down. Again, crime involving a gun.

...and it would have prevented what happened at Sandy Hook.

Guns were banned at Sandy Hook and it didn't prevent anything. Just more evidence that gun control laws don't prevent crime and may even encourage it. There are far too many firearms already here, and they are far too durable, for a ban to reduce access seriously without removing the ones people already own which would:
1. Be impossible
2. Start a bloodbath

If the shooters mother didn't own guns, he wouldnt have been able to use her weapons to shoot up the school.

 

[AmyNation]

It's obvious you've not purchased a gun and jumped through the hoops required by federal law. If I buy a gun from a dealer and inadvertently make a mistake on the paperwork and they don't catch the mistake is can cost them their license. They check and double check everything. Most criminals get guns through private sales or steal them, and they will be doing the same in 20 years.

No, i have not. However my husband owns one, and my sister has her own little arsenal. That doesnt change the fact that the majority of illegal guns are purchased from dealers.

frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS

"In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.

The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street."

Your own link proves you wrong.

ATF officials say that only about 8% of the nation's 124,000 retail gun dealers sell the majority of handguns that are used in crimes. They conclude that these licensed retailers are part of a block of rogue entrepreneurs tempted by the big profits of gun trafficking.

Read it again.

 

[DiamondDave]

Banning guns, would severely curtail the number of gun crimes, in time ,and it would have prevented what happened at Sandy Hook.

That being said, I dont think banning guns or banning types of guns, is the answer.

Yes.. because legislation and a ban prevents obtaining the thing and its use...

Signed

Marijuana

 

[AmyNation]

Banning guns, would severely curtail the number of gun crimes, in time ,and it would have prevented what happened at Sandy Hook.

That being said, I dont think banning guns or banning types of guns, is the answer.

School shootings during Clintons gun ban

1993–1994 (42 Homicides and 51 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
1994–1995 (17 Homicides and 20 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
1995–1996 (29 Homicides and 35 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
1996–1997 (23 Homicides and 25 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
1997–1998 (35 Homicides and 40 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
1998–1999 (25 Homicides from school shootings in the U.S.)
1999–2000 (25 Homicides from school shootings in the U.S.)
According to the U.S. Department of Education, in the 1998-1999 School Year, 3,523 students (57% High School, 33% Junior High, 10% Elementary) were expelled for bringing a firearm to school.[40]
The late 1990s started to see a major reduction in gun related school violence, but was still plagued with multiple victim shootings including;
January 12, 1995: Seattle Washington A student left school during the day and returned with his grandfather's 9mm. He wounded two students. The incident is portrayed in the documentary Cease Fire.
October 12, 1995: Blackville, South Carolina A suspended student shot two math teachers with a .32 caliber revolver.
November 15, 1995: Lynnville, Tennessee A 17-year-old boy shot and killed a student and teacher with a .22 rifle.
February 2, 1996: Moses Lake, Washington Two students and one teacher killed, one other wounded when 14-year-old Barry Loukaitis opened fire on his algebra class.[41]
February 19, 1997: Bethel, Alaska Principal and one student killed, two others wounded by Evan Ramsey, 16.[41]
October 1, 1997: Pearl, Mississippi Two students killed and seven wounded by Luke Woodham, 16, who was also accused of killing his mother. He and his friends were said to be outcasts who worshiped Satan.[41]
November 27, 1997: West Palm Beach, Florida Conniston Middle School 14-year-old John Kamel was fatally shot in the chest at 8:40 a.m. outside school on a sidewalk by 14-year-old Tronneal Mangum after an argument over an Adidas watch that Mangum had taken from Kamel.
December 1, 1997: West Paducah, Kentucky Three students killed, five wounded by Michael Carneal, 14, as they participated in a prayer circle at Heath High School.[41]
December 15, 1997: Stamps, Arkansas Two students wounded. Colt Todd, 14, was hiding in the woods when he shot the students as they stood in the parking lot[41]
March 24, 1998: Jonesboro, Arkansas Four students and one teacher killed, ten others wounded outside as Westside Middle School emptied during a false fire alarm. Mitchell Johnson, 13, and Andrew Golden, 11, shot at their classmates and teachers from the woods[41]
April 24, 1998: Edinboro, Pennsylvania One teacher, John Gillette, was killed and two students wounded at a dance at James W. Parker Middle School. Andrew Wurst, 14, was charged.[41]
May 21, 1998: Springfield, Oregon Two students killed, 22 others wounded in the cafeteria at Thurston High School by 15-year-old Kip Kinkel. Kinkel had been arrested and released a day earlier for bringing a gun to school. His parents were later found dead at home, shot to death by their son[41]
June 15, 1998: Richmond, Virginia One teacher and one guidance counselor wounded by a 14-year-old boy in the school hallway[41]
May 19, 1998: Fayetteville, Tennessee High School Senior Jacob Davis shot and killed eighteen year-old Robert "Nick" Creson in a dispute over a girl. He then lay down his rifle and waited with his head in his hands for the police to come. He was convicted of First Degree Murder and is serving life in prison.[42]
December 10, 1998: Detroit, Michigan One professor killed by a graduate student.[43]
April 20, 1999: Columbine, Colorado 14 students (including 2 shooters) and one teacher killed, 27 others wounded at Columbine High School. Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, had plotted for a year to kill at least 500 and blow up their school. At the end of their hour-long rampage, they turned their guns on themselves.[41]
May 20, 1999: Conyers, Georgia Six students injured at Heritage High School by Thomas Solomon, 15, who was reportedly depressed after breaking up with his girlfriend[41]
November 19, 1999: Deming, New Mexico One student killed at Deming Middle School by Victor Cordova Jr., 13.[44]
[edit]2000s
Main articles: Virginia Tech massacre, Red Lake massacre, Amish school shooting, and Northern Illinois University Shooting
February 29, 2000: Buell Elementary School, Flint, Michigan; 6-year-old Dedrick Owens, youngest-ever school shooter. Kayla Rolland was the single fatality.[45]
May 26, 2000: Lake Worth, Florida Lake Worth Middle School Florida teacher Barry Grunow was fatally shot by his student, 13-year-old Nathaniel Brazill, who had returned to school after being sent home at 1 p.m. by the assistant principal for throwing water balloons. Brazill returned to school on his bike with a 5 inch Raven and four bullets stolen from his grandfather the week before. Brazill was an honor student. Grunow was a popular teacher and Brazill's favorite.[45]
August 28, 2000: University of Arkansas shooting at Fayetteville, Arkansas At approximately 12:14 pm, Dr. John R. Locke, 67, Director of the Comparative Literature Program was shot and killed in his office by James E. Kelly, 36, a Comparative Literature PhD candidate who had recently been dismissed from the program for lack of progress towards his degree. Kelly shot Dr. Locke three times before taking his own life in Dr. Locke's office after it was cordoned off by campus police.[46][47][48]
September 26, 2000: Darrel Johnson, 13, offender in Louisiana school shooting with 1 student fatality.[45]
March 5, 2001: Charles Andrew William, age 15, offender in California school shooting at Santana High School, 15 wounded 2 of which died.[45]
March 30, 2001: Donald R. Burt Jr., age 18, offender in Indiana school shooting with 1 student fatality.[45]
September 24, 2003: John Jason McLaughlin, age 15, offender in Minnesota school shooting with 2 student fatalities.[45]
February 2, 2004: Unidentified offender in Washington, DC school shooting with 1 student fatality.[45]
May 7, 2004: Unidentified 17 year old offender in Maryland school shooting with 1 student fatality.[45]
School Shootings During The Clinton Gun Ban - No Holds Barred Political Forum - America's Political Chat Room
List of school shootings in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I meant a total gun ban.

 

[AmyNation]

It's obvious you've not purchased a gun and jumped through the hoops required by federal law. If I buy a gun from a dealer and inadvertently make a mistake on the paperwork and they don't catch the mistake is can cost them their license. They check and double check everything. Most criminals get guns through private sales or steal them, and they will be doing the same in 20 years.

No, i have not. However my husband owns one, and my sister has her own little arsenal. That doesnt change the fact that the majority of illegal guns are purchased from dealers.

frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS

"In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.

The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street."

Did ya hear Maobamas hero Chaves is opening a factory or two to produce AK's, first one to be built out side of Russia, where do you think the bad guys will get their weapons if they shut down legal dealers, criminals will smuggle them and the law abiding will be naked, do you really want that? If Sandy Hook proved anything it's the cops are only the clean up team.

Banning guns, would severely curtail the number of gun crimes, in time ,and it would have prevented what happened at Sandy Hook.

That being said, I dont think banning guns or banning types of guns, is the answer.

....

 

[AmyNation]

Banning guns, would severely curtail the number of gun crimes, in time ,and it would have prevented what happened at Sandy Hook.

That being said, I dont think banning guns or banning types of guns, is the answer.

Yes.. because legislation and a ban prevents obtaining the thing and its use...

Signed

Marijuana

As I have already stated, criminals get their guns from legitimate gun dealers, no dealers= less guns.

 

[DiamondDave]

Banning guns, would severely curtail the number of gun crimes, in time ,and it would have prevented what happened at Sandy Hook.

That being said, I dont think banning guns or banning types of guns, is the answer.

Yes.. because legislation and a ban prevents obtaining the thing and its use...

Signed

Marijuana

As I have already stated, criminals get their guns from legitimate gun dealers, no dealers= less guns.

Horse shit... criminals do not get their guns from legal sources.. criminals don't care if it is illegal or legal how they obtain their weapons, and would most likely prefer no paper trail or evidence... Anti-gun laws, like laws against illegal drugs, will open up channels for gun smuggling at much higher levels than currently seen like we have with drug smuggling

 

[AmyNation]

Yes.. because legislation and a ban prevents obtaining the thing and its use...

Signed

Marijuana

As I have already stated, criminals get their guns from legitimate gun dealers, no dealers= less guns.

Horse shit... criminals do not get their guns from legal sources.. criminals don't care if it is illegal or legal how they obtain their weapons, and would most likely prefer no paper trail or evidence... Anti-gun laws, like laws against illegal drugs, will open up channels for gun smuggling at much higher levels than currently seen like we have with drug smuggling

Link?

I've already provided a link that backs up my claim.

 

[jwoodie]

How about requiring registration of weapons which are not reasonably related to legal purposes such as hunting and/or self protection? This could be used to screen out mentally ill people and felons who pose a public risk, and it would put legal owners on notice that they must secure these weapons from possible misuse.

 

[DiamondDave]

As I have already stated, criminals get their guns from legitimate gun dealers, no dealers= less guns.

Horse shit... criminals do not get their guns from legal sources.. criminals don't care if it is illegal or legal how they obtain their weapons, and would most likely prefer no paper trail or evidence... Anti-gun laws, like laws against illegal drugs, will open up channels for gun smuggling at much higher levels than currently seen like we have with drug smuggling

Link?

I've already provided a link that backs up my claim.

Your article, which does not show anything real from this alleged ATF report, does not support your assertion

The jumps in that article are astounding.. from what is 'reported' to the lack of numbers for illegal dealers... and even to the point that this 'study' was for only Southern California.. it also does not explain well enough shipments being stolen etc, which are probably being attributed to these FFLs

Oh.. and you may want to know that it is actually against federal law for the ATF to keep or make a database of retail gun sales, etc.. so where these numbers and %'s actually came from is anyone's guess...

If you seriously think that weapons will not flow in to the country like drugs do now, you are sorely mistaken

And if you seriously think that I will disarm myself because a tyrannical government wants to squash my 2nd amendment rights.. you are again sorely mistaken

 

[AmyNation]

If you don't like that link, I can provide more

http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/downloads/pdf/inside-straw-purchases.pdf


Crimnials get guns from dealers, either purchasing them illegally or stealing them from dealers. That's where a majority of illegal guns come from. It's a fact.

Now, I have repeatedly stated I'm not in favor of gun bans. Again, I'm not in favor of gun bans.

However that doesn't make me blind to the fact that banning guns would reduce gun crime.