POLL: What should the punishment be for protesting football players?

[longly]

I didn’t think his protest was all that bad. He took a knee during the national anthem. I remember when the left desecrated and burned the flag and spit soldiers so this protest is not that bad.

 

[deanrd]

POLL: What should the punishment be for protesting football players?

Ask Trump. He seems to really be on top of things.

 

[Missourian]

The punishment? Immediate transfer to the Cleveland Browns roster.

 

[Synthaholic]

Okay, yes, another thread on this, sue me.

Let's get specific on what should not be done to players who kneel or sit or dance or sleep or do yoga during the national anthem. Please pick and explain.

My answer was "No punishment". If the team is okay with it, so am I.
.

Why should there be punishment for exercising your Constitutional right?

 

[Missourian]

Okay, yes, another thread on this, sue me.

Let's get specific on what should not be done to players who kneel or sit or dance or sleep or do yoga during the national anthem. Please pick and explain.

My answer was "No punishment". If the team is okay with it, so am I.
.

Why should there be punishment for exercising your Constitutional right?

For the thousandth fucking time, the Constitution protects your right to free speech from GOVERNMENT INFRINGEMENT...your boss can still fire you for making an impassioned protest ON COMPANY TIME!

Especially if it costs them money.

From a nice lefty source you cannot easily dismiss...

"Here's what the game operations manual says regarding the national anthem, according to an NFL spokesperson:

The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.

During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses."

Does the NFL Require Players to Stand for the National Anthem?

 

[JoeMoma]

I think that had Kaepernick been fined from he beginning when he took a knee for the flag that perhaps he would had protested by taking a knee maybe only a time or two.....and then it would had been over. I am not sure a fine would be the best thing for the NFL to do, but the problem should had been handled while it. Was much more manageable.

Now the owners are between a rock and a hard place. They are going to be pissing off a lot of fans now regardless of what they do.

 

[ScienceRocks]

In a free nation?

None...

Not by the government at least...Do as you may as paying consumers, but not by the government.

 

[Montrovant]

In a free nation?

None...

Not by the government at least...Do as you may as paying consumers, but not by the government.

The OP isn't about government intervention. Look at the poll options: fine, fine and suspension, firing. Those are clearly league punishments, not government punishments.

 

[Montrovant]

Okay, yes, another thread on this, sue me.

Let's get specific on what should not be done to players who kneel or sit or dance or sleep or do yoga during the national anthem. Please pick and explain.

My answer was "No punishment". If the team is okay with it, so am I.
.

Why should there be punishment for exercising your Constitutional right?

I have a constitutional right to talk about hating Jews, or wishing all left-handed people would leave the country, or how disgusting people from Italy are.....do you think that means employers must allow me to talk about those things while I'm at work?

Just because a person has a constitutional right to do something, does not mean there cannot be non-governmental punishment for doing that thing.

To give another example, if my employer has a policy that carrying a gun is not allowed at the workplace, do you think my employer cannot punish me for wearing a holstered pistol on the job?

 

[Pogo]

2009 isn't the first time an NFL team stood for the national anthem. From what I can gather, that's just when it became a requirement for teams to be on the field during the anthem. They weren't prevented from doing so before. FACT CHECK: Why Are NFL Players on the Sidelines for the National Anthem?

I've never claimed players were "prevented from" being on the field so this is a strawman.

Also, it may not be so much that players weren't on the field or standing for the anthem, but that in the past, networks often did not broadcast the anthem. Here's an example: National anthem gets in the game That is from just after 9/11. The author indicates that broadcasting the anthem was not a regular thing for multiple leagues, including the NFL.

Correct. I no longer have TV but the football games I remember watching from the beginning never featured a national anthem on the broadcast. I had presumed in the past from that that the game event didn't have one, which would be the sensible assumption since it has nothing to do with a football game and would have no valid reason to be there.

What's not sensible is that they do it at baseball games, including the broadcast. What's even less sensible is that immediately after they do, a game begins played by Dominicans and Cubans and Japanese and Australians and Koreans and Panamanians and Mexicans and Antilleans and Colombians and Canadians and Venezuelans and Taiwanese and there's a South African out there and a Russian in the works ---- and none of their anthems are played unless the game happens to be in Canada. And then for an even weirder twist, if the game IS in Canada .... they're still playing the US national anthem. In Canada. Which makes playing O Canada an imperative.

Here's one from last year, complaining about networks blacking out the anthem: Talk is cheap when networks play ads instead of airing anthem

I'm sure ads make more money. Complaining about capitalism in favor of watching robots just for the purpose of acquiescing to the PC-robot mentality is a bit ironic I must say. I always thought it was a point of superiority that the NFL didn't muddle up its broadcast with an irrelevant national anthem. To me the question was not why isn't the NFL broadcast showing it, but why IS the baseball broadcast doing it?

 

[Pogo]

Loss of all income from playing football.

My boycott has begun, I urge all patriotic Americans to join me.

Yyyyyyyyeah unfortunately "patriotic" has nothing to do with "football".

You know what does have to do with "patriotic"?

Respecting the principles that created it. Your country's Constitution.

 

[Montrovant]

2009 isn't the first time an NFL team stood for the national anthem. From what I can gather, that's just when it became a requirement for teams to be on the field during the anthem. They weren't prevented from doing so before. FACT CHECK: Why Are NFL Players on the Sidelines for the National Anthem?

I've never claimed players were "prevented from" being on the field so this is a strawman.

Also, it may not be so much that players weren't on the field or standing for the anthem, but that in the past, networks often did not broadcast the anthem. Here's an example: National anthem gets in the game That is from just after 9/11. The author indicates that broadcasting the anthem was not a regular thing for multiple leagues, including the NFL.

Correct. I no longer have TV but the football games I remember watching from the beginning never featured a national anthem on the broadcast. I had presumed in the past from that that the game event didn't have one, which would be the sensible assumption since it has nothing to do with a football game and would have no valid reason to be there.

What's not sensible is that they do it at baseball games, including the broadcast. What's even less sensible is that immediately after they do, a game begins played by Dominicans and Cubans and Japanese and Australians and Koreans and Panamanians and Mexicans and Antilleans and Colombians and Canadians and Venezuelans and Taiwanese and there's a South African out there and a Russian in the works ---- and none of their anthems are played unless the game happens to be in Canada. And then for an even weirder twist, if the game IS in Canada .... they're still playing the US national anthem. In Canada. Which makes playing O Canada an imperative.

Here's one from last year, complaining about networks blacking out the anthem: Talk is cheap when networks play ads instead of airing anthem

I'm sure ads make more money. Complaining about capitalism in favor of watching robots just for the purpose of acquiescing to the PC-robot mentality is a bit ironic I must say. I always thought it was a point of superiority that the NFL didn't muddle up its broadcast with an irrelevant national anthem. To me the question was not why isn't the NFL broadcast showing it, but why IS the baseball broadcast doing it?

The anthem is played for the country a team is from. When teams are from different countries, as happens often in hockey, the anthems of the the two countries are both played. It doesn't have to do with the nationality of individual players.

From what I've read, the tradition of playing the anthem before games mostly began during WWI and really became a big thing during WWII. It was supposedly a combination of patriotism because of the wars, and technology allowing it to be done easily; there was no need for an actual band.

My point regarding the NFL from the beginning of the post is that, from what I've read, teams did often go out and stand during the anthem before 2009. They simply weren't shown doing so by the networks. 2009 is just the time the NFL made it mandatory for teams to be on the field (although not mandatory to stand).

 

[Pogo]

2009 isn't the first time an NFL team stood for the national anthem. From what I can gather, that's just when it became a requirement for teams to be on the field during the anthem. They weren't prevented from doing so before. FACT CHECK: Why Are NFL Players on the Sidelines for the National Anthem?

I've never claimed players were "prevented from" being on the field so this is a strawman.

Also, it may not be so much that players weren't on the field or standing for the anthem, but that in the past, networks often did not broadcast the anthem. Here's an example: National anthem gets in the game That is from just after 9/11. The author indicates that broadcasting the anthem was not a regular thing for multiple leagues, including the NFL.

Correct. I no longer have TV but the football games I remember watching from the beginning never featured a national anthem on the broadcast. I had presumed in the past from that that the game event didn't have one, which would be the sensible assumption since it has nothing to do with a football game and would have no valid reason to be there.

What's not sensible is that they do it at baseball games, including the broadcast. What's even less sensible is that immediately after they do, a game begins played by Dominicans and Cubans and Japanese and Australians and Koreans and Panamanians and Mexicans and Antilleans and Colombians and Canadians and Venezuelans and Taiwanese and there's a South African out there and a Russian in the works ---- and none of their anthems are played unless the game happens to be in Canada. And then for an even weirder twist, if the game IS in Canada .... they're still playing the US national anthem. In Canada. Which makes playing O Canada an imperative.

Here's one from last year, complaining about networks blacking out the anthem: Talk is cheap when networks play ads instead of airing anthem

I'm sure ads make more money. Complaining about capitalism in favor of watching robots just for the purpose of acquiescing to the PC-robot mentality is a bit ironic I must say. I always thought it was a point of superiority that the NFL didn't muddle up its broadcast with an irrelevant national anthem. To me the question was not why isn't the NFL broadcast showing it, but why IS the baseball broadcast doing it?

The anthem is played for the country a team is from. When teams are from different countries, as happens often in hockey, the anthems of the the two countries are both played. It doesn't have to do with the nationality of individual players.

That's true for the Olympics. But if that were the rationale then at baseball games we should also be sitting through the national anthems of the Dominican Republic, Cuba, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, Australia, Colombia, Venezuela, Mexico, Canada, Panama, Curaçao and if the Pirates are playing, South Africa. Makes no sense.

What if there's a Panamanian on the team but he's not in the starting lineup, but then in the 7th inning he's called into the game? Do we leave his anthem alone until he's called in and then everything has to stop?

My team has at least two Canadians on it, yet I never hear O Canada unless we go to Toronto. And I never hear the DR, Cuba, Colombia, Venezuela or Korea, which are all on the team too, even though in a given game they might make up more than half the starting lineup. Makes no sense.

Because it has no reason to be there, plain and simple. If there was a 99-year "tradition" of everybody in the stands whacking themselves in the face with a two-by-four before the first pitch, there would be no argument whatsoever to standing up and declaring, "hey, this makes no sense".

From what I've read, the tradition of playing the anthem before games mostly began during WWI and really became a big thing during WWII. It was supposedly a combination of patriotism because of the wars, and technology allowing it to be done easily; there was no need for an actual band.

Your timeline is correct. The bottom line being, there's no need for an actual anthem. 1918 was the first time it was done, an infamous period of shameless mob mentality that brought lynchings and race riots, the Palmer Raids, people getting tossed in jail for refusing to kiss a flag, and even Dachshunds ripped from their owners and stoned to death in the street simply because the name "Dachshund" is German. That's the danger of mob mentality, and that's why I'm vehemently opposed to it.

Now if the anthem has an actual function in the event--- say it's a military function, or an Olympic event, then it has a reason to be there. Absent that reason all it is is an exercise in cultivating a mob mentality. And that's never a good thing.

My point regarding the NFL from the beginning of the post is that, from what I've read, teams did often go out and stand during the anthem before 2009. They simply weren't shown doing so by the networks. 2009 is just the time the NFL made it mandatory for teams to be on the field (although not mandatory to stand).

Correct again ---- whether shown on TV or not, prior to 2009 players were in the locker room when the anthem was played because it just wasn't an issue, just as prior to whenever it was that some media wag happened to notice Colin Kaepernick sitting through the NA and figure he could milk a story out of it as long as nobody looked into it logically --- he had already done several times without making any waves about it and it wasn't an issue either.

It became a 'thing' for players to be on the field during the NA when the Pentagon started pimping for fake patriotism. And the pitfall of that shouldn't need to be explained, is already illegal, and was the subject of a Senate investigation two years ago. The NFL in response sent some three-quarters of a million bucks of that taxpayer money back to -- at least the government, if not the taxpayers.

But ----- "Colin Kaepernick".

None of that means a player was prohibited from the field during the NA. It simply means that those who try to present this NA thing as some venerable tradition are full of proverbial shit.

 

[Montrovant]

2009 isn't the first time an NFL team stood for the national anthem. From what I can gather, that's just when it became a requirement for teams to be on the field during the anthem. They weren't prevented from doing so before. FACT CHECK: Why Are NFL Players on the Sidelines for the National Anthem?

I've never claimed players were "prevented from" being on the field so this is a strawman.

Also, it may not be so much that players weren't on the field or standing for the anthem, but that in the past, networks often did not broadcast the anthem. Here's an example: National anthem gets in the game That is from just after 9/11. The author indicates that broadcasting the anthem was not a regular thing for multiple leagues, including the NFL.

Correct. I no longer have TV but the football games I remember watching from the beginning never featured a national anthem on the broadcast. I had presumed in the past from that that the game event didn't have one, which would be the sensible assumption since it has nothing to do with a football game and would have no valid reason to be there.

What's not sensible is that they do it at baseball games, including the broadcast. What's even less sensible is that immediately after they do, a game begins played by Dominicans and Cubans and Japanese and Australians and Koreans and Panamanians and Mexicans and Antilleans and Colombians and Canadians and Venezuelans and Taiwanese and there's a South African out there and a Russian in the works ---- and none of their anthems are played unless the game happens to be in Canada. And then for an even weirder twist, if the game IS in Canada .... they're still playing the US national anthem. In Canada. Which makes playing O Canada an imperative.

Here's one from last year, complaining about networks blacking out the anthem: Talk is cheap when networks play ads instead of airing anthem

I'm sure ads make more money. Complaining about capitalism in favor of watching robots just for the purpose of acquiescing to the PC-robot mentality is a bit ironic I must say. I always thought it was a point of superiority that the NFL didn't muddle up its broadcast with an irrelevant national anthem. To me the question was not why isn't the NFL broadcast showing it, but why IS the baseball broadcast doing it?

The anthem is played for the country a team is from. When teams are from different countries, as happens often in hockey, the anthems of the the two countries are both played. It doesn't have to do with the nationality of individual players.

That's true for the Olympics. But if that were the rationale then at baseball games we should also be sitting through the national anthems of the Dominican Republic, Cuba, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, Australia, Colombia, Venezuela, Mexico, Canada, Panama, Curaçao and if the Pirates are playing, South Africa. Makes no sense.

What if there's a Panamanian on the team but he's not in the starting lineup, but then in the 7th inning he's called into the game? Do we leave his anthem alone until he's called in and then everything has to stop?

My team has at least two Canadians on it, yet I never hear O Canada unless we go to Toronto. And I never hear the DR, Cuba, Colombia, Venezuela or Korea, which are all on the team too, even though in a given game they might make up more than half the starting lineup. Makes no sense.

Because it has no reason to be there, plain and simple. If there was a 99-year "tradition" of everybody in the stands whacking themselves in the face with a two-by-four before the first pitch, there would be no argument whatsoever to standing up and declaring, "hey, this makes no sense".

From what I've read, the tradition of playing the anthem before games mostly began during WWI and really became a big thing during WWII. It was supposedly a combination of patriotism because of the wars, and technology allowing it to be done easily; there was no need for an actual band.

Your timeline is correct. The bottom line being, there's no need for an actual anthem. 1918 was the first time it was done, an infamous period of shameless mob mentality that brought lynchings and race riots, the Palmer Raids, people getting tossed in jail for refusing to kiss a flag, and even Dachshunds ripped from their owners and stoned to death in the street simply because the name "Dachshund" is German. That's the danger of mob mentality, and that's why I'm vehemently opposed to it.

Now if the anthem has an actual function in the event--- say it's a military function, or an Olympic event, then it has a reason to be there. Absent that reason all it is is an exercise in cultivating a mob mentality. And that's never a good thing.

My point regarding the NFL from the beginning of the post is that, from what I've read, teams did often go out and stand during the anthem before 2009. They simply weren't shown doing so by the networks. 2009 is just the time the NFL made it mandatory for teams to be on the field (although not mandatory to stand).

Correct again ---- whether shown on TV or not, prior to 2009 players were in the locker room when the anthem was played because it just wasn't an issue, just as prior to whenever it was that some media wag happened to notice Colin Kaepernick sitting through the NA and figure he could milk a story out of it as long as nobody looked into it logically --- he had already done several times without making any waves about it and it wasn't an issue either.

It became a 'thing' for players to be on the field during the NA when the Pentagon started pimping for fake patriotism. And the pitfall of that shouldn't need to be explained, is already illegal, and was the subject of a Senate investigation two years ago. The NFL in response sent some three-quarters of a million bucks of that taxpayer money back to -- at least the government, if not the taxpayers.

But ----- "Colin Kaepernick".

None of that means a player was prohibited from the field during the NA. It simply means that those who try to present this NA thing as some venerable tradition are full of proverbial shit.

I'm not sure how you misread my post. The national anthem is played for the nation a TEAM is from, not for the nations individual players may be from. MLB teams are from only 2 nations, the United States and Canada. Therefore, those are the only 2 anthems that would be played.

I also have read that teams did NOT all stay in the locker room prior to 2009. Teams did, in fact, come out and stand on the sidelines during the anthem.

Players did not always stay in the locker room prior to 2009. That is simply untrue. Here, let me provide a few clips of anthems being broadcast in non-SB games prior to 2009 with players on the field:
B2 bomber flyover jags vs titans 11/15/08
Cassidy Sings National Anthem at Giants/Eagles Game


I'm not completely sure, but I don't think those are even playoff games. It may not have been usual, but teams certainly did come out to the field for the anthem at least some of the time prior to 2009. It just wasn't a required thing.

The mandate may well have been a marketing thing for the NFL, but the idea that NFL players were always in the locker room during the national anthem prior to 2009 is demonstrably false. I'm not sure how to determine how often teams may have stayed in the locker room during the anthem, other than perhaps going through archival NFL footage.

 

[Correll]

Punishment for exercising one's 1st Amendment rights? This IS America, is it not?

Well, at football stadiums and college campuses alike, that's not a given, it seems.
.

insulting the nation and the fans at the beginning of each game is not protected by the constitution.


There must be literally millions of other ways and times they could "Exercise their 1st Amendment RIghts".

 

[Mac1958]

Punishment for exercising one's 1st Amendment rights? This IS America, is it not?

Well, at football stadiums and college campuses alike, that's not a given, it seems.
.

insulting the nation and the fans at the beginning of each game is not protected by the constitution.


There must be literally millions of other ways and times they could "Exercise their 1st Amendment RIghts".

Well, for some it's an insult and for others it's an inspiration. The point remains, unless their employer expressly tells them not to do it, there's nothing stopping them.

So the question then is, what is all the outrage really going to accomplish on a tangible basis?
.

 

[Correll]

Punishment for exercising one's 1st Amendment rights? This IS America, is it not?

Well, at football stadiums and college campuses alike, that's not a given, it seems.
.

insulting the nation and the fans at the beginning of each game is not protected by the constitution.


There must be literally millions of other ways and times they could "Exercise their 1st Amendment RIghts".

Well, for some it's an insult and for others it's an inspiration. The point remains, unless their employer expressly tells them not to do it, there's nothing stopping them.

So the question then is, what is all the outrage really going to accomplish on a tangible basis?
.

It reveals the divide that liberalism have created.

The left looks at a bunch of pampered assholes disrespecting America and are "inspired".


The rest of US are insulted and, to varying degrees, shocked at what has become of our nation, that such behavior is celebrated.


What to do about it? Step one, stop treating people who have nothing but contempt for US, like they don't.

 

[Mac1958]

Punishment for exercising one's 1st Amendment rights? This IS America, is it not?

Well, at football stadiums and college campuses alike, that's not a given, it seems.
.

insulting the nation and the fans at the beginning of each game is not protected by the constitution.


There must be literally millions of other ways and times they could "Exercise their 1st Amendment RIghts".

Well, for some it's an insult and for others it's an inspiration. The point remains, unless their employer expressly tells them not to do it, there's nothing stopping them.

So the question then is, what is all the outrage really going to accomplish on a tangible basis?
.

It reveals the divide that liberalism have created.

The left looks at a bunch of pampered assholes disrespecting America and are "inspired".


The rest of US are insulted and, to varying degrees, shocked at what has become of our nation, that such behavior is celebrated.


What to do about it? Step one, stop treating people who have nothing but contempt for US, like they don't.

Well, that's pretty much what's happening, that's fer damn sure.

Personally I'm not a fan of leveraging contempt and outrage and anger to improve anything, but I could be wrong.
.

 

[Correll]

Punishment for exercising one's 1st Amendment rights? This IS America, is it not?

Well, at football stadiums and college campuses alike, that's not a given, it seems.
.

insulting the nation and the fans at the beginning of each game is not protected by the constitution.


There must be literally millions of other ways and times they could "Exercise their 1st Amendment RIghts".

Well, for some it's an insult and for others it's an inspiration. The point remains, unless their employer expressly tells them not to do it, there's nothing stopping them.

So the question then is, what is all the outrage really going to accomplish on a tangible basis?
.

It reveals the divide that liberalism have created.

The left looks at a bunch of pampered assholes disrespecting America and are "inspired".


The rest of US are insulted and, to varying degrees, shocked at what has become of our nation, that such behavior is celebrated.


What to do about it? Step one, stop treating people who have nothing but contempt for US, like they don't.

Well, that's pretty much what's happening, that's fer damn sure.

Personally I'm not a fan of leveraging contempt and outrage and anger to improve anything, but I could be wrong.
.

Ignoring the facts won't make them go away.

 

[Mac1958]

Well, at football stadiums and college campuses alike, that's not a given, it seems.
.

insulting the nation and the fans at the beginning of each game is not protected by the constitution.


There must be literally millions of other ways and times they could "Exercise their 1st Amendment RIghts".

Well, for some it's an insult and for others it's an inspiration. The point remains, unless their employer expressly tells them not to do it, there's nothing stopping them.

So the question then is, what is all the outrage really going to accomplish on a tangible basis?
.

It reveals the divide that liberalism have created.

The left looks at a bunch of pampered assholes disrespecting America and are "inspired".


The rest of US are insulted and, to varying degrees, shocked at what has become of our nation, that such behavior is celebrated.


What to do about it? Step one, stop treating people who have nothing but contempt for US, like they don't.

Well, that's pretty much what's happening, that's fer damn sure.

Personally I'm not a fan of leveraging contempt and outrage and anger to improve anything, but I could be wrong.
.

.

Ignoring the facts won't make them go away.

Well, the third option is to communicate and listen and try to find some common ground on which to build.

And if we don't get our way, we sometimes have to just let it go.

I know that's not a very popular notion nowadays, believe me.
.