Perhaps It's Too Late For Capitalism

[PoliticalChic]

A Long Island couple is home free after an outraged judge gave them an amazing Thanksgiving present -- canceling their debt to ruthless bankers trying to toss them out on the street.

Suffolk Judge Jeffrey Spinner wiped out $525,000 in mortgage payments demanded by a California bank, blasting its "harsh, repugnant, shocking and repulsive" acts.


It erased up to $291,000 in principal and $235,000 in interest and penalties.

The Horoskis -- who had been paying only interest on their mortgage -- had no equity in the home.

Horoski, who had begged the bankers to let him restructure the loan, said, "I think the judge felt it was almost a personal vendetta." Dealing with the bank, he said, was "like dealing with organized crime."



Read more: Judge blasts bad bank, erases 525G debt - NYPOST.com

 

[American Horse]

A Long Island couple is home free after an outraged judge gave them an amazing Thanksgiving present -- canceling their debt to ruthless bankers trying to toss them out on the street.

Suffolk Judge Jeffrey Spinner wiped out $525,000 in mortgage payments demanded by a California bank, blasting its "harsh, repugnant, shocking and repulsive" acts.


It erased up to $291,000 in principal and $235,000 in interest and penalties.

As I said the other day about Eric Holder's decision to place the coming trial of KSM in NYC. I said that "We have judges sufficiently opposed to US policy of the past 8 years to willingly see an aquittal of these bums as proof of the illigitimacy of the Bush policy to invade Afghanistan, Iraq...."
and a few posts later someone responded with "Names of those judges?"

Here we may have an example of one of those, not of the same venue, but of the same ilk for lack of judgment.

 

[PoliticalChic]

A Long Island couple is home free after an outraged judge gave them an amazing Thanksgiving present -- canceling their debt to ruthless bankers trying to toss them out on the street.

Suffolk Judge Jeffrey Spinner wiped out $525,000 in mortgage payments demanded by a California bank, blasting its "harsh, repugnant, shocking and repulsive" acts.


It erased up to $291,000 in principal and $235,000 in interest and penalties.

As I said the other day about Eric Holder's decision to place the coming trial of KSM in NYC. I said that "We have judges sufficiently opposed to US policy of the past 8 years to willingly see an aquittal of these bums as proof of the illigitimacy of the Bush policy to invade Afghanistan, Iraq...."
and a few posts later someone responded with "Names of those judges?"

Here we may have an example of one of those, not of the same venue, but of the same ilk for lack of judgment.

Generally, I've found that the "Names of those judges" gambit is a sophomoric deflection of the thrust of the argument.

The implication of the demand is that, if you name said judges, I will change my perspective.

In other words, it is an illusory blocking of your premise. Meaningless.

It may also be an ad hominem attack along the lines of "you are lying- it is impossible for any judge to think or act in that manner."

But, your larger point, that the article III created class of individuals that have spun off out of control. In so many ways, much of the original ideas of the Founding Fathers has been perverted. Every time the strict meaning of the Constitution is bent, or modified, or fragmented, we move to a country we know not.



1. How does AG Holder submit advice to the Executive that D.C., not a state, should get representation in the House?
"The Washington Post confirms that the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, "an elite unit that gives legal and constitutional advice to the executive branch," did issue an unpublished opinion earlier this year that the voting rights bill is unconstitutional. "
David Limbaugh : Holder's Injustice - Townhall.com


2. the White House attempt to strong arm investors in Chrysler to drop their contractual rights to be paid first in a bankruptcy. The White House demanded concessions and an abrogation of the contract, and have been directly threatened by the White House, if they didn’t give in.
This becomes a Constitutional issue, as Contract and Property rights should be sacrosanct. Lauria contends that as our government is composed of three independent branches, and the Executive is now taking over the role of the Judiciary.
News/Talk 760 WJR
White House Denies Charge By Attorney that Administration Threatened to Destroy Investment Firm's Reputation* - Political Punch

3. Article 1, section 6, paragraph 2: No Senator or Representative shall, during the time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil office…or the Emoluments whereof shall have been increased during such time… [Senator Clinton became Sec’y of State]

4. Article 1, section 7, paragraph 3 Every order, resolution, or vote to which the concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the United States; and before the same shall take effect, shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him… [Signing statements aimed at modifying a bill’s intent. The President should either veto, or ‘faithfully execute.]

5. Article 1, section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; [Where do we find the power to tax AIG executives at 90%, or ‘level the playing field’ with extraordinary taxes against successful people, or redistribute wealth?]

6. Article 1, section 8, paragraph 4:” To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;” [uniform: put the squeeze on Chrysler bondholders, choose which companies would fail or get bailouts]
__________________

 

[Saladin]

I've heard of him. I'm gladdened that there are public officials with the moral grounding to resist the ravages of usury that characterizes the capitalist financial system.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I've heard of him. I'm gladdened that there are public officials with the moral grounding to resist the ravages of usury that characterizes the capitalist financial system.

I guess you didn't hear that we use the Constitution, not the Koran.

 

[Saladin]

I guess you didn't hear that we use the Constitution, not the Koran.

Opposition to usury was an element of every soundly formed religious or moral code, not merely that found in the Koran. The U.S. Constitution, for example, was written by men of equitable agrarian society in which market exchange was characterized by independent traders and artisans. I expect that the more libertarian among them would have had disdain for capitalism.

 

[American Horse]

I've heard of him. I'm gladdened that there are public officials with the moral grounding to resist the ravages of usury that characterizes the capitalist financial system.

I guess you didn't hear that we use the Constitution, not the Koran.

Saladin, What you call usury, is what I call renting money to put to good use. It enables every mother’s son or daughter to grow his or her endeavors and to prosper. Usury enables exponential growth of ideas and invention by enabling them to reach markets, and enables access of every individual to property. It promotes meritocracy, for those who have the self discipline to honor their agreements and accept responsibility.

Even those who fail in their endeavors have the option of taking bankruptcy and starting over with lessons learned.

Wealth is more universally experienced today across in America than the Arab or Muslim world where strict adherence to that belief is practiced. Even here in America, Muslims get around paying “usury” by contracting with a lender to have the lender purchase and own the house they wish to own. Then they willingly pay rent while living there, until they can take full ownership once the rent chits have been fully applied to their purchase.

In that tautology renting money is evil, but renting a house is fair game.

PC, Capitalism is not dead, except in the wet dreams of those who have long wanted to kill it. Out here in fly-over country, while it is being frustrated, it is alive and well, just biding its time for the right conditions to present themselves

 

[Saladin]

Saladin, What you call usury, is what I call renting money to put to good use. It enables every mother’s son or daughter to grow his or her endeavors and to prosper. Usury enables exponential growth of ideas and invention by enabling them to reach markets, and enables access of every individual to property. It promotes meritocracy, for those who have the self discipline to honor their agreements and accept responsibility.

Usury survives because of the fact that productive resources are consolidated into the hands of an elite few, thereby preventing any legitimately meritocratic market or other economic exchange. It is a hoarding mechanism only and not one that accomplishes any legitimate economic purpose.

 

[American Horse]

Saladin, What you call usury, is what I call renting money to put to good use. It enables every mother’s son or daughter to grow his or her endeavors and to prosper. Usury enables exponential growth of ideas and invention by enabling them to reach markets, and enables access of every individual to property. It promotes meritocracy, for those who have the self discipline to honor their agreements and accept responsibility.

Usury survives because of the fact that productive resources are consolidated into the hands of an elite few, thereby preventing any legitimately meritocratic market or other economic exchange. It is a hoarding mechanism only and not one that accomplishes any legitimate economic purpose.

Yeah, well as a young person with not much more than ambition, zeal, and a willingness to accept responsibility I was able to borrow, and expand my borrowing power to large amounts of money (millions) to access productive resources like land, refined raw materials, skilled professionals, and heavy equipment and hire, employ, and promote others to accomplish the same goals. And I leveraged it all with less than $1-thousand, here in capitalist America. If I could do it, then a very large part of the population can too. One thing I never allowed myself to do: become a cynic, and be jealous of the accomplishments or wealth of others.

 

[Toronado3800]

Where do we find the power to tax AIG executives at 90%, or ‘level the playing field’ with extraordinary taxes against successful people, or redistribute wealth?

Was AIG forced into taking that bailout money or were they going to cease to exist if they did not? Its my understanding they entered into a contract with "the government". In effect "keep us in existence and we'll bend over"

 

[Saladin]

Yeah, well as a young person with not much more than ambition, zeal, and a willingness to accept responsibility was able to borrow, and expand my borrowing power to large amounts of money (millions) to access productive resources like land, refined raw materials, skilled professionals, and heavy equipment and hire, employ, and promote others to accomplish the same goals. And I leveraged it all with less than $1-thousand. Here in capitalist American, If I could do it, then a very large part of the population can too. One thing I never allowed myself to do: become a cynic, and allow myself to be jealous of the accomplishments of others.

That is an anecdotal account not useful for more widespread policy formation or analysis, since the spectrum of human behavior and experiences is so widely varying from individual to individual. More problematically, you've regarded your anecdotal experiences as a basis for belief in the mythical "American dream," despite the fact that the empirical literature on social mobility flatly contradicts such a claim. For analysis into how income inequality and restricted social mobility are more prevalent in the U.S. than in most European countries, consider Gangl's Income inequality, permanent incomes, and income dynamics: Comparing Europe to the United States.

In most of Europe, real income growth was actually higher than in the United States, many European countries thus achieve not just less income inequality but are able to combine this with higher levels of income stability, better chances of upward mobility for the poor, and a higher protection of the incomes of older workers than common in the United States.

Supplement that with analysis into the probability of intergenerational transmission of corresponding economic success, specifically the probability of children belonging to the same income level as their parents. Consider Corak's Do poor children become poor adults? Lessons from a cross country comparison of generational earnings mobility.

In the United States almost one half of children born to low income parents become low income adults. This is an extreme case, but the fraction is also high in the United Kingdom at four in ten, and Canada where about one-third of low income children do not escape low income in adulthood. In the Nordic countries, where overall child poverty rates are noticeably lower, it is also the case that a disproportionate fraction of low income children become low income adults. Generational cycles of low income may be common in the rich countries, but so are cycles of high income. Rich children tend to become rich adults. Four in ten children born to high income parents will grow up to be high income adults in the United States and the United Kingdom, and as many as one third will do so in Canada.

So we can thus clearly observe the nature of intergenerational transmission of an effectively matching income level being a significantly occurring pattern in the U.S. and other Western countries.

We may be able to attribute a sizable portion of that to direct inheritance, for which we'd consider a source such as Summers and Kotlikoff's The role of intergenerational transfers in aggregate capital accumulation. Consider the abstract:

This paper uses historical U.S. data to directly estimate the contribution of intergenerational transfers to aggregate capital accumulation. The evidence presented indicates that intergenerational transfers account for the vast majority of aggregate U.S. capital formation; only a negligible fraction of actual capital accumulation can be traced to life-cycle or "hump" savings.

Aside from that, there's also the obvious matter of a myriad amount of inequitable environmental conditions skewing human capital attainment, thus creating a prohibitive obstruction to upward social mobility.

 

[Toronado3800]

Oh, and I agree the fella who took out a loan is an equal fool to the bank who gave him the loan.

The Judge must know folks who have tried buying "distressed" homes from banks like I do. Banks are incapable of selling houses effectively and must have been equally incapable of refinancing this loan.

Whenever the police show up at your house due to a burglary call or you get pulled over for speeding on the way to the hospital you must act with a certain respect or bad things will happen. This bank must have done something foolhardy to upset the equal judiciary branch of our government.

 

[American Horse]

<SNIP>

Aside from that, there's also the obvious matter of a myriad amount of inequitable environmental conditions skewing human capital attainment, thus creating a prohibitive obstruction to upward social mobility.

I'm sorry you handicap yourself by believing all that crap has to apply to you, or at least to the poor masses you live among. You must live in an extreme environment. I clearly see my own anecdotal experiences lived out wherever I look here in a state (Indiana) which promotes a favorable business environment rather than discouraging people from doing productive business. Except for the few large corporations (and some of them local start-ups too), almost all the business owning people here started from scratch.

I'm quite sure you experience what you proselytize and are so heavily indoctrinated in, just as I tend to experience what I promote and believe in.

Right here in our town of 100,000 we have an owner of a business which he started in his garage in 1967, a business providing him a net worth of several $-billion which designs and sells medical devices worldwide.

 

[Saladin]

I'm sorry you handicap yourself by believing all that crap has to apply to you, or at least to the poor masses you live among. You must live in an extreme environment. I clearly see my own anecdotal experiences lived out wherever I look here in a state (Indiana) which promotes a favorable business environment rather than discouraging people from doing productive business. Except for the few large corporations (and some of them), almost all the business owning people here started from scratch.

I'm quite sure you experience what you proselytize and are so heavily indoctrinated in, just as I tend to experience what I promote and believe in.

Right here in our town of 100,000 we have an owner of a business which he started in his garage in 1967, a business providing him a net worth of several $-billion which designs and sells medical devices worldwide.

So? 1967 was the year of my emigration to Lebanon from Tulkarm after the interruption of my medical training that I'd never expected to receive because of my lower class status...that thanks to an extension of an Israeli occupation. You have anecdotal evidence of expansive social mobility and I have anecdotal evidence of limited social mobility caused by political and economic factors. The difference is that I can refer to empirical analysis also...I can refer to large data sets rather than mere individuals.

 

[American Horse]

So? 1967 was the year of my emigration to Lebanon from Tulkarm after the interruption of my medical training that I'd never expected to receive because of my lower class status...that thanks to an extension of an Israeli occupation. You have anecdotal evidence of expansive social mobility and I have anecdotal evidence of limited social mobility caused by political and economic factors. The difference is that I can refer to empirical analysis also...I can refer to large data sets rather than mere individuals.

I only hope that brings you some happiness. Good luck! (you may need it)

 

[The Rabbi]

Saladin, What you call usury, is what I call renting money to put to good use. It enables every mother’s son or daughter to grow his or her endeavors and to prosper. Usury enables exponential growth of ideas and invention by enabling them to reach markets, and enables access of every individual to property. It promotes meritocracy, for those who have the self discipline to honor their agreements and accept responsibility.

Usury survives because of the fact that productive resources are consolidated into the hands of an elite few, thereby preventing any legitimately meritocratic market or other economic exchange. It is a hoarding mechanism only and not one that accomplishes any legitimate economic purpose.

This is why Saudi Arabia is such a just society, where inequalities in wealth hardly exist. Right?
Face it, lending on interest is a fact of life. If you dress it up as an installment sale to make it salable to Muslims, it is a distinction without a difference.

 

[Saladin]

This is why Saudi Arabia is such a just society, where inequalities in wealth hardly exist. Right? Face it, lending on interest is a fact of life. If you dress it up as an installment sale to make it salable to Muslims, it is a distinction without a difference.

I never mentioned Saudi Arabia as an optimal form of economic organization, inasmuch as I've never attempted to conceal my socialism. I'm simply interested in the sort of free market exchange that capitalism cannot deliver.

 

[The Rabbi]

What kind of "free market exchange" can capitalism not deliver? Capitalism IS the free market. Every other system involves some outside force, like governments, monkeying with the market.

 

[Skull Pilot]

so let me get this straight

A couple of fucking morons get a loan and then pay no principle only interest for years.

They didn't bother to sit down with a crayon and a scrap of paper and do a little second grade addition and subtraction to see whether they could actually afford to make the payments. they didn't bother to use a little fifth grade deductive reasoning and ask the questions,

"If my income doesn't go up in the next few years will I be able to afford the payments?"

"If the house doesn't appreciate in value in the next few years, will I be able to refinance and get better terms?"

"Why is an ARM my best choice?"

or how about this question

"Can we really afford to buy this big expensive house when we can barely pay the mortgage at the low end of the ARM?"

So these fucking morons don't bother to think and sign a contract, they then renege on that contract and rack up penalties and interest and it's somehow not their fault?


For Christ Fucking sake people how moronic can you be?

BTW What do people who take a minute to plan their finances and make sound purchasing decisions get for a reward?

 

[PoliticalChic]

so let me get this straight

A couple of fucking morons get a loan and then pay no principle only interest for years.

They didn't bother to sit down with a crayon and a scrap of paper and do a little second grade addition and subtraction to see whether they could actually afford to make the payments. they didn't bother to use a little fifth grade deductive reasoning and ask the questions,

"If my income doesn't go up in the next few years will I be able to afford the payments?"

"If the house doesn't appreciate in value in the next few years, will I be able to refinance and get better terms?"

"Why is an ARM my best choice?"

or how about this question

"Can we really afford to buy this big expensive house when we can barely pay the mortgage at the low end of the ARM?"

So these fucking morons don't bother to think and sign a contract, they then renege on that contract and rack up penalties and interest and it's somehow not their fault?


For Christ Fucking sake people how moronic can you be?

BTW What do people who take a minute to plan their finances and make sound purchasing decisions get for a reward?

How about handing out a little grief to the judge.