Perhaps another GREAT JOB Trump - apparently on the phone with Putin, and an hour later they had a cease fire agreement.

[Zavulon]

Are they? That is news to me. Both are Slavs but they have different languages and were, at times, independent of each other. What does it mean to "Russian"?

No. First of all, "Ukrainain dialects", in practical terms, are dialects of Russian language. Second, "Official Ukrainian language", "Derjavna mova" (literally"state's speech") is an artificial language created exclusively for political reasons. It is as different from Lvivska Gvara or Poltavskiy Surjik as, say Kuban's Balachka (which is officially dialect of Russian) or Moscow's Russian (or as American English is different from Cockney, or other British dialects). And that's why, in practical terms, in your village you can speak Gvara, or Surjik, or Balachka, but in a city (or in internet and media) you use proper Russian.
Actually, before 2014 they 90% of media time except political news and other official things, there were proper Russian speech.

Which came first?

Attacks of Ukrainian nazionalists against Russians during Maidan coup.

So the Tsar was not an autocrat. Did the serfs allow him to be their Tsar?

Yes. Or didn't allow, what also was quite often. Actually, the only Russian Tsar who was a son and a grandson of the previous Tzars was Nikolay II (and his reign finished badly).

If the Serbs had the right to discriminate and kill ethnic Albanians, why doesn't Ukraine have that same right regarding Russians in their country?

In practical terms Serbs had that right before 1999, when there was the right of sovereignity and UN SC exclusive right to allow international interventions. So-called "post-WWII world order". American illegal and unprovoked attack had destroyed that world order and changes it to "pre-WWIII world order" with the main law "Might is right".
From the formal point of view, Russia recognised independence of Crimea, DPR and LPR before "invasion", and its actions are legally "collective self-defense", while America recognised independence of Kosovo long after their aggression, which made its actions as "illegal intervention in the sovereign questions".

 

[Correll]

Do you expect Ukraine to surrender territory to Russia because they want it? Now that is dumb.

That WOULD be dumb, if I said anything like that.

I expect Ukraine to accept that some of it's territory, has been lost to russian forces and it is not able to get it back.

That seems to be the reality on the ground.

Would you like to address what I said, or do you prefer to make us stupid shit and address that?

Your support for an autocratic oligarch who believes Russia has some right to foreign lands and people is, honestly, is not a good look for you.

Except I am not "supporting" them, nor have I said ANYTHING about them having a RIGHT to ukrainian lands.

You really are unable to engage in discussion like a person, at all, aren't you?

 

[Correll]

It’s the Ukrainians choice to fight, just as it was Putin’s choice to invade.

I note that when your supporting arguments are seriously addressed, that your response is to drop your supporting arguments and retreat to the logical fallacy of argument by assertion.


That's you losing the debate. You have conceeded. If would have been better if you had the moral courage to be open about that.

 

[The Duke]

Not from what I see, it looks like Zelensky just attacked something in Russia and Putin's been hammering him, too.
That thing's a big pile of dogshit.

 

[alang1216]

Attacks of Ukrainian nazionalists against Russians during Maidan coup.

I could find no mention of any widespread attacks against Russians. It appears most of the violence was in Kyiv against Ukrainians.

 

[konradv]

Invasion and killing its not "Russian propaganda". Ukrainian forces actually invaded DPR and LPR and they kill a lot of Russian people both in Donbass and in other temporarily controlled by Kievan regime territories.

I note that when your supporting arguments are seriously addressed, that your response is to drop your supporting arguments and retreat to the logical fallacy of argument by assertion.


That's you losing the debate. You have conceeded. If would have been better if you had the moral courage to be open about that.

You should have the moral courage to realize, by not supporting Ukraine 100% you’re supporting a dictator.

 

[Correll]

You should have the moral courage to realize, by not supporting Ukraine 100% you’re supporting a dictator.

That is the overly simplistic to the point of being a child. And not one of the smarter children. I'm talking about one of the children that wears a helmut and eats paste.

ANd you are using playing dumb to stonewall to avoid defending your position seriously.

Ukraine is NOT going to eject Russia from the land they have taken. Encouraging them to die in pursuit of that is just getting people killed for no reason.

 

[konradv]

That is the overly simplistic to the point of being a child. And not one of the smarter children. I'm talking about one of the children that wears a helmut and eats paste.

ANd you are using playing dumb to stonewall to avoid defending your position seriously.

Ukraine is NOT going to eject Russia from the land they have taken. Encouraging them to die in pursuit of that is just getting people killed for no reason.

Children who eat paste know not to trust a dictator! What’s your problem?

 

[alang1216]

No. First of all, "Ukrainain dialects", in practical terms, are dialects of Russian language. Second, "Official Ukrainian language", "Derjavna mova" (literally"state's speech") is an artificial language created exclusively for political reasons. It is as different from Lvivska Gvara or Poltavskiy Surjik as, say Kuban's Balachka (which is officially dialect of Russian) or Moscow's Russian (or as American English is different from Cockney, or other British dialects). And that's why, in practical terms, in your village you can speak Gvara, or Surjik, or Balachka, but in a city (or in internet and media) you use proper Russian.
Actually, before 2014 they 90% of media time except political news and other official things, there were proper Russian speech.

Russian is a descendant of Old East Slavic, a language used in Kievan Rus', which was a loose conglomerate of East Slavic tribes from the late 9th to the mid-13th centuries. From the point of view of spoken language, its closest relatives are Ukrainian, Belarusian, and Rusyn, the other three languages in the East Slavic branch.

I think it is fair to say that both languages came from the same root and are closely related.

Yes. Or didn't allow, what also was quite often. Actually, the only Russian Tsar who was a son and a grandson of the previous Tzars was Nikolay II (and his reign finished badly).

I see where you are coming from. Any leader is legitimate, no matter what he does, so long as he stays in power.

 

[alang1216]

I expect Ukraine to accept that some of it's territory, has been lost to russian forces and it is not able to get it back.

That seems to be the reality on the ground.

I'm not sure I accept your military assessment. Ukraine has to admit nothing and can win by not losing. Vietnam beat the US the same way.

Except I am not "supporting" them, nor have I said ANYTHING about them having a RIGHT to ukrainian lands.

You appear to support the fact that they control former Ukrainian territory and Ukraine needs to recognize and accept that.

 

[Correll]

Children who eat paste know not to trust a dictator! What’s your problem?

And you lose.

 

[Correll]

I'm not sure I accept your military assessment. Ukraine has to admit nothing and can win by not losing. Vietnam beat the US the same way.

YOu don't like my military asessment? Ok, let's discuss your plan.

You want to us VIETNAM's win as a template for how Ukraine can win vs Russia.

Please explain to me and the readers, why you think that ukraine can duplicate that feat, despite the many differences, most of which seem to make the task adn the cost WORSE for ukraine.


I won't bother listing the many differences, since you are so smart adn so much better at military assessments than me, I know that you already know them all and already have seriously considered all of them.

So, share with us your reasons.

You appear to support the fact that they control former Ukrainian territory and Ukraine needs to recognize and accept that.

Fact's don't need to be "Supported". That imples that YOU, don't "support" that fact.

Are you saying that you DENY that the russians control Ukrainian territory?

 

[alang1216]

YOu don't like my military asessment? Ok, let's discuss your plan.

You want to us VIETNAM's win as a template for how Ukraine can win vs Russia.

Please explain to me and the readers, why you think that ukraine can duplicate that feat, despite the many differences, most of which seem to make the task adn the cost WORSE for ukraine.


I won't bother listing the many differences, since you are so smart adn so much better at military assessments than me, I know that you already know them all and already have seriously considered all of them.

So, share with us your reasons.

However you look at it, Russia is suffering:

• they have economic problems due to sanctions,
• they have military problems due to poor equipment and equipment losses,
• they have infrastructure problems due to Ukrainian attacks and, should they stay in control of Ukraine territories, they will have to fund the rebuilding of both countries,
• they have political problems due to their isolation.

The could well be a point, maybe after Putin's death, when Russia decides the costs are not worth the benefits. They made that call before in Afghanistan.

Are you saying that you DENY that the russians control Ukrainian territory?

Yesterday they didn't, today they do, tomorrow who knows?

 

[Correll]

However you look at it, Russia is suffering:

Whoa. You left out the biggest point, ie that Vietnam was a GUERILLA WAR, and this war is not. That is a huge difference that makes a super long term war, much harder for Ukraine.

Whoal. YOu left out the second biggest point, ie a lack of a 5th column. The vietnemese, had allies in the US left, due to communism. The ukrainians, don't have that in russia. If anything there are possibly ethnic russians that could be sympathetic ot the russians in ukraine.

Whoa. YOu left out the third biggest point, ie that Russia is right next door, not on the other side of the planet.

• they have economic problems due to sanctions,

True.

• they have military problems due to poor equipment and equipment losses,

True.

• they have infrastructure problems due to Ukrainian attacks and, should they stay in control of Ukraine territories, they will have to fund the rebuilding of both countries,

The russians just won't rebuild ukraine, until the war is over. They will happily let any occupied civilians starve and freeze.

• they have political problems due to their isolation.

The russians seem to see the isolation as an outside attack. So, no, I think that will actually have a POSITIVE effect on their war effort.

The could well be a point, maybe after Putin's death, when Russia decides the costs are not worth the benefits. They made that call before in Afghanistan.

So, you are thinking a very long war. Vietnam was twenty years. YOu planning of this going another 17 years? Or longer?


I'm not prepared for such a blood soaked path to "victory". I'm not prepared to spend so many ukrainian lives.

It is possible, but the cost is too high and the risk of failure is too great, imo.

Yesterday they didn't, today they do, tomorrow who knows?

You are, I hope, being silly. THe russian control a significant portion of Ukraine.


Are you seriously claiming to not know that? THe ukrainians are NOT in a position to eject them. Not even close. The ukrainians are still LOSING ground, not holding it, or pushing back.

If your end game is russians completely out, then you ARE thinking along the lines of a twenty year war, that would decimate the ukrainian population. Literally.

 

[Zavulon]

I could find no mention of any widespread attacks against Russians. It appears most of the violence was in Kyiv against Ukrainians.

It simply because your media didn't demonstrated it for you. There were a lot of attacks, including shooting of bus with Crimean anti-Maidan activist.

 

[alang1216]

Whoa. You left out the biggest point, ie that Vietnam was a GUERILLA WAR, and this war is not. That is a huge difference that makes a super long term war, much harder for Ukraine.

Also harder for Russia. They have to defend their men and equipment both in Ukraine and in Russia and both are tempting targets.

Whoal. YOu left out the second biggest point, ie a lack of a 5th column. The vietnemese, had allies in the US left, due to communism. The ukrainians, don't have that in russia. If anything there are possibly ethnic russians that could be sympathetic ot the russians in ukraine.

Russia is just a lot more repressive. Let's revisit this one in 5 years and see how the Russian people feel.

Whoa. YOu left out the third biggest point, ie that Russia is right next door, not on the other side of the planet.

The Vietnamese never attacked the US and they never occupied US territory.

The russians just won't rebuild ukraine, until the war is over. They will happily let any occupied civilians starve and freeze.

True.

The russians seem to see the isolation as an outside attack. So, no, I think that will actually have a POSITIVE effect on their war effort.

In the short term maybe, in the long term...

So, you are thinking a very long war. Vietnam was twenty years. YOu planning of this going another 17 years? Or longer?

I'm not prepared for such a blood soaked path to "victory". I'm not prepared to spend so many ukrainian lives.

It is possible, but the cost is too high and the risk of failure is too great, imo.

You're right, that is your opinion. Is it one shared by the Ukrainian people?

You are, I hope, being silly. THe russian control a significant portion of Ukraine.

Are you seriously claiming to not know that? THe ukrainians are NOT in a position to eject them. Not even close. The ukrainians are still LOSING ground, not holding it, or pushing back.

If your end game is russians completely out, then you ARE thinking along the lines of a twenty year war, that would decimate the ukrainian population. Literally.

All true but it is up to the Ukrainians to decide how badly they want their independence.

 

[konradv]

YOu don't like my military asessment? Ok, let's discuss your plan.

You want to us VIETNAM's win as a template for how Ukraine can win vs Russia.

Please explain to me and the readers, why you think that ukraine can duplicate that feat, despite the many differences, most of which seem to make the task adn the cost WORSE for ukraine.


I won't bother listing the many differences, since you are so smart adn so much better at military assessments than me, I know that you already know them all and already have seriously considered all of them.

So, share with us your reasons.






Fact's don't need to be "Supported". That imples that YOU, don't "support" that fact.

Are you saying that you DENY that the russians control Ukrainian territory?

Using the Vietnam template the weaker nation is propped up by supplies from allies, also known as the Afghanistan template to which the anscestors of these neo-Soviets have already fallen.

 

[Correll]

Also harder for Russia. They have to defend their men and equipment both in Ukraine and in Russia and both are tempting targets.

Nope. A conventional war is easier on the side of the bigger army, than a guerilla war.

YOU choose your template. THe VIETNAMESE had a big advantage becasue they were waging a guerilla war. Ukraine does not have that advantage.

YOu try that shit in a conventional war, you will just be killed down to the last man.

Russia is just a lot more repressive. Let's revisit this one in 5 years and see how the Russian people feel.

Yes, lets.

The Vietnamese never attacked the US and they never occupied US territory.

The ukrainian occupied terriotry was a symbolic act, not a serious issue.

True.


In the short term maybe, in the long term...

I think so.

You're right, that is your opinion. Is it one shared by the Ukrainian people?

Hard to tell, Zelenski cancelled their elections.

All true but it is up to the Ukrainians to decide how badly they want their independence.

Weak ass copout. If someone is too close to an issue and can't see it clearly because of the blood they have already shed, not telling them when it is time to call it, is not being their friend, it is taking advantage of them.

 

[Correll]

Using the Vietnam template the weaker nation is propped up by supplies from allies, also known as the Afghanistan template to which the anscestors of these neo-Soviets have already fallen.

You are talking a very long war, with high risk of failure.


It is a bad policy and regaining the occupied territory is not worth it.

 

[Zavulon]

However you look at it, Russia is suffering:

• they have economic problems due to sanctions,

Actually, Russian economy is raising faster than in G7 countries even if we count it in dollars.

• they have military problems due to poor equipment and equipment losses,

Their equipment is getting much better, and, say, average Russian company has more UAVs than even beat US brigades.

• they have infrastructure problems due to Ukrainian attacks and, should they stay in control of Ukraine territories, they will have to fund the rebuilding of both countries,

Its not that much, and no, Russia effectively rebuild new Russian territories as well.

• they have political problems due to their isolation.

There is no "isolation".

The could well be a point, maybe after Putin's death, when Russia decides the costs are not worth the benefits. They made that call before in Afghanistan.

No. Russians don't see Ukraine as a different country. They see it as a part of their own country, and they will join it.

Yesterday they didn't, today they do, tomorrow who knows?

Tomorrow they'll take even more territories, kill more terrorists and save more Russians.

Ukraine is not Russian Vietnam. Ukraine is Russian Confederacy. North successfully reintegrated South in the USA. Ordinary Americans didn't see difference between pro-commie Vietnamese and pro-American Vietnamese. Russians see the difference between Vatniks and Banderlogs may be even better than average American see the difference between Rednecks and BLM-activists.