Our founding fathers were not conservative

[bigrebnc1775]

You obviously have not read his words, and I will ***** slap you every time you act like trash here.

Lincoln gave no one a pass on slavery, most of all himself. He came a long, long way on the issue over many decades. By the time of his death, AL believed that educated blacks and black Union veterans should possibly have the vote. That is a long way from his position seven years earlier in the Lincoln-Douglas debates.

Don't ever think you can correct me on these issues without me making you look like the 'barely four steps past illiteracy' moron you are.

^^^^^Read up on Lincoln, read his own words

 

[mudwhistle]

You obviously have not read his words, and I will ***** slap you every time you act like trash here.

Lincoln gave no one a pass on slavery, most of all himself. He came a long, long way on the issue over many decades. By the time of his death, AL believed that educated blacks and black Union veterans should possibly have the vote. That is a long way from his position seven years earlier in the Lincoln-Douglas debates.

Don't ever think you can correct me on these issues without me making you look like the 'barely four steps past illiteracy' moron you are.

^^^^^Read up on Lincoln, read his own words

I get a kick out of this tool telling everyone how he pwned them and *****-slapped his way around the forum.

Fucken

 

[bigrebnc1775]

You obviously have not read his words, and I will ***** slap you every time you act like trash here.

Lincoln gave no one a pass on slavery, most of all himself. He came a long, long way on the issue over many decades. By the time of his death, AL believed that educated blacks and black Union veterans should possibly have the vote. That is a long way from his position seven years earlier in the Lincoln-Douglas debates.

Don't ever think you can correct me on these issues without me making you look like the 'barely four steps past illiteracy' moron you are.

^^^^^Read up on Lincoln, read his own words

I get a kick out of this tool telling everyone how he pwned them and *****-slapped his way around the forum.

Fucken

The last time he ***** slapped anyone was when he was looking in the mirror.

 

[M14 Shooter]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact.

Better Idea:
Support your claim with 'empirical fact'.

 

[Charles_Main]

I agree with you, Mal, 100% that Lincoln was about preservation of the Union always, always, always, before getting rid of slavery. By the summer of 1862, I think he came to realize that to preserve the union in perpetuity that slavery would have to perish.

Being a History buff with a particular like for that period of time. I can assure you MR Lincoln did not free the slaves because he wanted them free.

He freed the slaves purely as a tool of war. He announced he was going to do it over 6 months before he did, as a tool to threaten the south into negotiating, when they did not listen he freed them in the hopes of creating an uprising in the south and thereby helping the war effort.

He was enough of a politician to recognize the historic nature of his action and capitalize on it, but don't be fooled he didn't free them out of the goodness of his heart. If he could have won the war and preserved he union with Slavery intact. He would have.

 

[Intense]

Cooper Union Address
New York, New York
February 27, 1860


This is the speech that launched Lincoln on the path to the presidency. In October 1859, Lincoln accepted an invitation to lecture at Henry Ward Beecher's church in Brooklyn, New York. His law partner, William Herndon, wrote, "No former effort in the line of speech-making had cost Lincoln so much time and thought as this one".

The speech provides a good example of how constituional scholars of the time approached constitutional review. Lincoln examined the historical evidence for the positions of the 39 signers of the Constitution on questions concerning slavery, and found that a majority of at least 21 held that Congress had the power to prohibit slavery in the territories and new states formed out of the territories, and thus to not allow it to expand beyond the states in which it was already established. Therefore, the Republican Party position to oppose expansion of slavery but not disturb it in the South was merely a continuation of the path begun by the Founding Fathers, which should not give cause to Southerners who had threatened to secede if a Republican was elected President.

Before Lincoln arrived in New York, the Young Men's Republican Union had assumed sponsorship of the speech and moved its location to the Cooper Union, the board of which included such members as Horace Greeley and William Cullen Bryant, who opposed the nomination of William Seward for president by the upcoming Republican Convention. Lincoln had not then announced his candidacy, but was the subject of talk as a contender for higher office, following his debates with Stephen A. Douglas in his unsuccessful campaign to be elected to the U.S. senate from Illinois in the 1858 election, and the prospect of hearing a rising leader attracted a capacity crowd of 1,500 New Yorkers. The speech was widely reprinted in newspapers across the country, and provided the impetus to a movement to nominate Lincoln as the Republican presidential candidate.
Abraham Lincoln's Cooper Union Address

 

[JakeStarkey]

You obviously have not read his words, and I will ***** slap you every time you act like trash here.

Lincoln gave no one a pass on slavery, most of all himself. He came a long, long way on the issue over many decades. By the time of his death, AL believed that educated blacks and black Union veterans should possibly have the vote. That is a long way from his position seven years earlier in the Lincoln-Douglas debates.

Don't ever think you can correct me on these issues without me making you look like the 'barely four steps past illiteracy' moron you are.

^^^^^Read up on Lincoln, read his own words

You lost this one. Thanks.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You obviously have not read his words, and I will ***** slap you every time you act like trash here.

Lincoln gave no one a pass on slavery, most of all himself. He came a long, long way on the issue over many decades. By the time of his death, AL believed that educated blacks and black Union veterans should possibly have the vote. That is a long way from his position seven years earlier in the Lincoln-Douglas debates.

Don't ever think you can correct me on these issues without me making you look like the 'barely four steps past illiteracy' moron you are.

^^^^^Read up on Lincoln, read his own words

I get a kick out of this tool telling everyone how he pwned them and *****-slapped his way around the forum.

:

Particularly when I pwn and ***** slap you, my ignorant buddy?

 

[JakeStarkey]

I agree with you, Mal, 100% that Lincoln was about preservation of the Union always, always, always, before getting rid of slavery. By the summer of 1862, I think he came to realize that to preserve the union in perpetuity that slavery would have to perish.

Being a History buff with a particular like for that period of time. I can assure you MR Lincoln did not free the slaves because he wanted them free.

He freed the slaves purely as a tool of war. He announced he was going to do it over 6 months before he did, as a tool to threaten the south into negotiating, when they did not listen he freed them in the hopes of creating an uprising in the south and thereby helping the war effort.

He was enough of a politician to recognize the historic nature of his action and capitalize on it, but don't be fooled he didn't free them out of the goodness of his heart. If he could have won the war and preserved he union with Slavery intact. He would have.

You are 100% right, if that was his only choice. Lincoln came to realize that slavery was essential to eternal Unionism by the summer of 1862. The Emancipation Proclamation put the war on a moral elevation that the French and British governments could not challenge with recognition of the Confederacy.

Lincoln played his cards exactly right.

 

[Flopper]

Over 200 years ago someone who thought outside the box was somebody who thought being taxed by the crown was wrong and not owning slaves was too much of a hardship. Anyone who thought that way was considered to be too liberal.

Incidentally; Do you think the founding fathers supported abortion, illegal immigration, homosexuality, Islamic Fundamentalists, communism, Marxism, controlling everything we put into our bodies, preventing children from harm at every opportunity, prevent the display of Christian symbols, pushed diversity down everyone's throats, and establish government funded health care ins. and unemployment ins. that never seems to run out. In effect welfare? Do you think they felt that carbon dioxide was a poison?

Nope....what they were back then is nothing like the liberals of today. So it doesn't matter what label you give them. They aren't like the liberals of today regardless how you slice it or rationalize it. The meaning has changed so much over the years that the founding fathers would make Archie Bunker look liberal.

Pretty soon the left is gonna try to say that Jesus was a wine-swilling homeless person.

Too late. Somebody already has.

There were no immigration laws at that time. If there were, I suspect the founding fathers would have opposed them. Homosexuality and abortion were not subject for public discussion. Karl Marx was not even born yet. Asking what position the founding fathers might take on the controversial issues of today would be liking asking a caveman his position on global warming.

I think we spend far too much time trying to apply principals laid down by the founding fathers to issues that they do not apply. The courts labor over a single word or phrase within the constitution seeking to determine what the writers meant. They dig through the federalist papers, and the writings of the forefathers to gain insight into the intent of the writers. The courts then issue rulings that they feel is in accordance with the beliefs of the framers of the Constitution without concern to what effect the ruling might have on society or individuals.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The point is simply that the U.S. is not going to adopt the originalist construction of a Scalia or Thomas. Even Roberts looks at them with disquiet when the wacks pull their nonsense.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I agree with you, Mal, 100% that Lincoln was about preservation of the Union always, always, always, before getting rid of slavery. By the summer of 1862, I think he came to realize that to preserve the union in perpetuity that slavery would have to perish.

Being a History buff with a particular like for that period of time. I can assure you MR Lincoln did not free the slaves because he wanted them free.

He freed the slaves purely as a tool of war. He announced he was going to do it over 6 months before he did, as a tool to threaten the south into negotiating, when they did not listen he freed them in the hopes of creating an uprising in the south and thereby helping the war effort.

He was enough of a politician to recognize the historic nature of his action and capitalize on it, but don't be fooled he didn't free them out of the goodness of his heart. If he could have won the war and preserved he union with Slavery intact. He would have.

You are 100% right, if that was his only choice. Lincoln came to realize that slavery was essential to eternal Unionism by the summer of 1862. The Emancipation Proclamation put the war on a moral elevation that the French and British governments could not challenge with recognition of the Confederacy.

Lincoln played his cards exactly right.

You're a moron. You said I lost this one and you turn around and agree with Charles, after I agreed with him. you only disagree with me to disagree no matter how much of an ass you make out of yourself

 

[JakeStarkey]

You have lost this one if you are arguing with me. You don't even understand the points here. Lincoln's travel from poverty of the frontier racism to a nuanced willingness to grant voting rights to educated blacks and union veteran blacks is one of the great moral stories of America. Indeed, Lincoln would have saved the Union without freeing slaves if that is what it required. But I have no doubt that once the coward traitors fired on Ft Sumter than Lincoln thought "I will put paid to the secessionists and I will free their property if at all possible. We are never going to go through this tragedy ever again."

 

[bigrebnc1775]

You have lost this one if you are arguing with me. You don't even understand the points here. Lincoln's travel from poverty of the frontier racism to a nuanced willingness to grant voting rights to educated blacks and union veteran blacks is one of the great moral stories of America. Indeed, Lincoln would have saved the Union without freeing slaves if that is what it required. But I have no doubt that once the coward traitors fired on Ft Sumter than Lincoln thought "I will put paid to the secessionists and I will free their property if at all possible. We are never going to go through this tragedy ever again."

I suggest you beef up on your opinion jake I am about to school your ***** ass.

1. big misconception about southerners to call them cowards or traitors they were neither
a. They took on the union which had them out maned and out guned
b. Traitors yes if they had fought against their home state.

2. Lincoln made the first agression when he sent the star of the west to resupplyu fort sumter.

Let's not use your opinion for what Lincoln said or thought

Lincoln thought "I will put paid to the secessionists and I will free their property if at all possible.

Use Lincolns words

" I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union."

Abraham Lincoln's Letter to Horace Greeley

Lincoln on the racial equality

I am not now, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social or political equality of the white and black races. I am not now nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor of intermarriages with white people. There is a physical difference between the white and the black races which will forever forbid the two races living together on social or political equality. There must be a position of superior and inferior, and I am in favor of assigning the superior position to the white man.

Lincoln in his speech to Charleston, Illinois, 1858
The Real Abe Lincoln: Abraham Lincoln on Racial Equality

Lincoln?Douglas debates of 1858 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Sallow]

Lincoln was the aggressor?

Bhahahahahaha..

The South were all involved in treason, sedition and traitorous secession.

The were the first to fire too.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Lincoln was the aggressor?

Bhahahahahaha..

The South were all involved in treason, sedition and traitorous secession.

The were the first to fire too.

Yes he was. South Carolina told the federal government to evacuate the fort, Lincoln sent supplies and more troops yep that would be an act of aggression

 

[JakeStarkey]

bigrebnc continues to demonstrate his ignorance about the Civil War as well as Lincoln and his racism.

The South fired on Old Glory and spit on the patriots and the martyrs of the War of Independence. Yes, Southerners were traitors against the nation. No one gives a crap today about their twisted feelings toward their states. Three million northerners had no trouble understanding that; they took up the Blue and murdered the Gray.

The South fired on Ft Sumter. The North did not fire on Charleston or South Carolina. The South started the war. Any other claim is simply a whiner's complaint.

Lincoln obviously agreed with me, bigrebnc: "What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union." Abraham Lincoln's Letter to Horace Greeley

Lincoln on the racial equality. Your quote is from 1858 and has nothing to do with how he felt about race in 1865. In fact, "In his second term as president, on April 11, 1865, Lincoln gave a speech supporting a form of limited suffrage extended to what Lincoln described as the more "intelligent" blacks and those blacks who had rendered special services to the nation.[25] In analyzing Lincoln's position historian Eugene H. Berwanger notes: During his presidency, Lincoln took a reasoned course which helped the federal government both destroy slavery and advance the cause of black suffrage. For a man who had denied both reforms four years earlier, Lincoln's change in attitude was rapid and decisive. He was both open-minded and perceptive to the needs of his nation in a postwar era. Once committed to a principle, Lincoln moved toward it with steady, determined progress. Abraham Lincoln on slavery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You continue ignorant about the very history and precedents of our culture. Until you correct that, every knowledgeable individual here will continue to pwn you., as I have here.

 

[JakeStarkey]

bigrebnc would call a police officer's order to him to put down his weapon as an "act of aggression", I would think. bigrebnc simply is ignorant, superstitious, suspicious, etc. He speaks stupidly here every day and gets mad when he is corrected.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

bigrebnc continues to demonstrate his ignorance about the Civil War as well as Lincoln and his racism.

The South fired on Old Glory and spit on the patriots and the martyrs of the War of Independence. Yes, Southerners were traitors against the nation. No one gives a crap today about their twisted feelings toward their states. Three million northerners had no trouble understanding that; they took up the Blue and murdered the Gray.

The South fired on Ft Sumter. The North did not fire on Charleston or South Carolina. The South started the war. Any other claim is simply a whiner's complaint.

Lincoln obviously agreed with me, bigrebnc: "What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union." Abraham Lincoln's Letter to Horace Greeley

Lincoln on the racial equality. Your quote is from 1858 and has nothing to do with how he felt about race in 1865. In fact, "In his second term as president, on April 11, 1865, Lincoln gave a speech supporting a form of limited suffrage extended to what Lincoln described as the more "intelligent" blacks and those blacks who had rendered special services to the nation.[25] In analyzing Lincoln's position historian Eugene H. Berwanger notes: During his presidency, Lincoln took a reasoned course which helped the federal government both destroy slavery and advance the cause of black suffrage. For a man who had denied both reforms four years earlier, Lincoln's change in attitude was rapid and decisive. He was both open-minded and perceptive to the needs of his nation in a postwar era. Once committed to a principle, Lincoln moved toward it with steady, determined progress. Abraham Lincoln on slavery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You continue ignorant about the very history and precedents of our culture. Until you correct that, every knowledgeable individual here will continue to pwn you., as I have here.

You're forgetting one piece of the equation State sovereignty back then is not as it is now. South Carolina told the federal government to leave the fort Lincoln went to resupply.

So jake I see your pig headness didn't even listen to what lincoln said. You failed.

 

[Sallow]

Lincoln was the aggressor?

Bhahahahahaha..

The South were all involved in treason, sedition and traitorous secession.

The were the first to fire too.

Yes he was. South Carolina told the federal government to evacuate the fort, Lincoln sent supplies and more troops yep that would be an act of aggression

South Carolina didn't have the standing to tell the Union to do shit. The United States Constitution is supreme..and they were involved in revolt. The Constitution allows for suppressing insurrection.

Sherman didn't go far enough.