Our founding fathers were not conservative

[M14 Shooter]

In this case they are..

No, they are not. Secession came months before anything resembling rebellion.
Secession in no way necessitates an insurrection or rebellion.

Even if your theory were correct and a state asked to secede..the moment the Congress and/or the President said no..it's over.

As neither Congress not the President have any legal authority to tell a state it cannot leave, and a state need not ask permission to do so... No.

 

[Intense]

"The alternatives between which we are to choose [are fairly stated]: 1, licentious commerce and gambling speculations for a few, with eternal war for the many; or, 2, restricted commerce, peace and steady occupations for all. If any State in the Union will declare that it prefers separation with the first alternative to a continuance in union without it, I have no hesitation in saying 'let us separate.' I would rather the States should withdraw which are for unlimited commerce and war, and confederate with those alone which are for peace and agriculture. I know that every nation in Europe would join in sincere amity with the latter and hold the former at arm's length by jealousies, prohibitions, restrictions, vexations and war." --Thomas Jefferson to William H. Crawford, 1816. ME 15:29
Jefferson on Politics & Government: Foreign Commerce

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Where in the Constitution does it say states have the right to secede. Even in marriage, law provides for divorce. Neither the Constitution nor federal law provided for any such thing. The states are subject to the national laws on union and national sovereignty. You ***** slap yourself every time you write.

Again
Can you cite or give any reference before 1865 that any state could not leave the union if it so desired? Where exactly can I find it in the Constitution dated before 1865?

Why the heck do I have to keep doing this..

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Section 10 - Powers prohibited of States

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress.

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.

The Case for Secession
Supporters of secession claimed that, through economic legislation such as tariffs passed by a Northern-controlled Congress, the North was essentially trying to turn the South into an agricultural colony. In fact, southerners compared their situation to that of the American colonists who overthrew the British in the American Revolutionary War (1775-83). In both cases, they asserted, a group of people declared their independence from a power that was taxing them heavily; in both cases, the seceding entity was invaded by a power that did not want secession to be successful.

In an "Address of the people of South Carolina to the people of the slaveholding states," in which South Carolina urged other Southern states to join it in a confederacy of slave-holding states, secessionists noted that the Southern states were subordinate to the North in Congress. According to the address: [see Address of the People of South Carolina to the People of Slaveholding States (primary document)]

Their representation in Congress is useless to protect them against unjust taxation; and they are taxed by the people of the North for their benefit, exactly as the people of Great Britain taxed our ancestors in the British Parliament for their benefit. For the last forty years, the taxes laid by the Congress of the United States, have been laid with a view of subserving the interests of the North.
Secessionists also pointed to the Declaration of Independence to bolster their claim that states had a right to secede. South Carolina's secession declaration included wording from the Declaration of Independence stating that the colonies "are, and of right ought to be Free and Independent States." The secession declaration further quoted the colonists' declaration that "whenever any form of government becomes destructive of the ends for which it was established, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new government."

Civil War: Secession of the Southern States

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Where in the Constitution does it say states have the right to secede. Even in marriage, law provides for divorce. Neither the Constitution nor federal law provided for any such thing. The states are subject to the national laws on union and national sovereignty. You ***** slap yourself every time you write.

I do believe some of the State Constitutions may claim that. Our Common Wealths have that option, meaning PR, Guam, USVI. You guys are really going off on tangents here Jake. You realize Hamilton reversed himself on 3 key positions after ratification, this act can easily be interpreted as his motives being disingenuous, he pulled a bait and switch on the Continental Congress by talking circles around them. Enumerated Powers, General Welfare, and the Commerce Clause. To this day those Powers are under contention, a dark cloud.

Not at all, and who cares what Hamilton says. This has been answered satisfactorily. Nothing in the Constitution said that states could leave.

In other words you just got pawned and haven't got a clue true story.

 

[JakeStarkey]

In this case they are..

No, they are not. Secession came months before anything resembling rebellion.
Secession in no way necessitates an insurrection or rebellion.

Even if your theory were correct and a state asked to secede..the moment the Congress and/or the President said no..it's over.

As neither Congress not the President have any legal authority to tell a state it cannot leave, and a state need not ask permission to do so... No.

The Constitution does not provide any measure for secession; therefore, secession is unconstitutional.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I do believe some of the State Constitutions may claim that. Our Common Wealths have that option, meaning PR, Guam, USVI. You guys are really going off on tangents here Jake. You realize Hamilton reversed himself on 3 key positions after ratification, this act can easily be interpreted as his motives being disingenuous, he pulled a bait and switch on the Continental Congress by talking circles around them. Enumerated Powers, General Welfare, and the Commerce Clause. To this day those Powers are under contention, a dark cloud.

Not at all, and who cares what Hamilton says. This has been answered satisfactorily. Nothing in the Constitution said that states could leave.

In other words you just got pawned and haven't got a clue true story.

In other words, the states had no such power, rebelled, and got their sons murdered for it. True story.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Again
Can you cite or give any reference before 1865 that any state could not leave the union if it so desired? Where exactly can I find it in the Constitution dated before 1865?

Why the heck do I have to keep doing this..

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Section 10 - Powers prohibited of States

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress.

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.

<snip: no case for secession is applicable to this argument>

Secession was not provide for in the Constitution, thus any attempt to do it was unlawful. When the CSA stupidly used force, the North properly executed the CSA.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Why the heck do I have to keep doing this..

<snip: no case for secession is applicable to this argument>

Secession was not provide for in the Constitution, thus any attempt to do it was unlawful. When the CSA stupidly used force, the North properly executed the CSA.

Intense since you are involved in this discussion I would like for you to see the dishonesty of jake starkey. He quotes me but deletes what I posted.

 

[Gunny]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

Yeah. Another nitwit with a "founding fathers" thread. By today's definition of "liberal", they were far right, fuckwit.

And no, I'm not going to play empirical word games with you. The complete sign of a loser, "I wish I was an" intellectual genius.

You want to play semantics, get some phonics flash cards. You'll STILL lose.

 

[Gunny]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

They obviously weren't conservative. They were revolutionaries, which makes them radicals.

They were more far right than ANY rightwinger in this country today. There's a clue there.

 

[Gunny]

No it doesn't. When it comes to tyranny, it doesn't take "radicals" to rise against it. It takes people who believe they are obligated to fight tyranny, and liberals don't have a monopoly on that. In fact, they don't even have a place in that.

It doesn't take a stupid political party label either. It takes a belief in freedom. Neither current party has that. The Dems are just worst.

 

[Gunny]

Well, let's think it through.

The fundamental values espoused by the Founders and Framers when it comes to government is in line with the thinking of today's conservatives.

The liberals reject the Founders' and Framers' notions of the proper role of government, by and large.

So, if it's true that in their day the Founders were not "conservatives," it's also true that in our day they would be anything but "liberals."

The Hannity clone speaketh .....

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Not at all, and who cares what Hamilton says. This has been answered satisfactorily. Nothing in the Constitution said that states could leave.

In other words you just got pawned and haven't got a clue true story.

In other words, the states had no such power, rebelled, and got their sons murdered for it. True story.

No state jake?

Section 2. Self-government. The people have the exclusive right of governing themselves as a free, sovereign, and independent state. They may alter or abolish the constitution and form of government whenever they deem it necessary.
Montana Constitution, Article II, Section 2. Self-government.

TITLE 97- WYOMING CONSTITUTION



97-1-001. Power inherent in the people.



All power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority, and instituted for their peace, safety and happiness; for the advancement of these ends they have at all times an inalienable and indefeasible right to alter, reform or abolish the government in such manner as they may think proper.
Wyoming Constitution

Constitution of Oregon - 2009 Edition

Section 1. Natural rights inherent in people. We declare that all men, when they form a social compact are equal in right: that all power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority, and instituted for their peace, safety, and happiness; and they have at all times a right to alter, reform, or abolish the government in such manner as they may think proper
http://www.leg.state.or.us/orcons/orcons.html

Maine
Section 2. Power inherent in people. All power is inherent in the people; all free governments are founded in their authority and instituted for their benefit; they have therefore an unalienable and indefeasible right to institute government, and to alter, reform, or totally change the same, when their safety and happiness require it.
Constitution OF Maine

 

[jillian]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

They obviously weren't conservative. They were revolutionaries, which makes them radicals.

They were more far right than ANY rightwinger in this country today. There's a clue there.

i suppose if you mean that they believed in slavery, believed only rich people should vote and didn't think women should have the vote, you'd be correct.

but realistically, by definition "conservatives" would be the tories of the revolutionary era.

i marvel at your ability for distortion of reality. it's quite impressive really.

 

[Sallow]

In this case they are..

No, they are not. Secession came months before anything resembling rebellion.
Secession in no way necessitates an insurrection or rebellion.

Even if your theory were correct and a state asked to secede..the moment the Congress and/or the President said no..it's over.

As neither Congress not the President have any legal authority to tell a state it cannot leave, and a state need not ask permission to do so... No.

You are utterly wrong on both counts. There isn't even a gray area about this. The Constitution is pretty clear. And it's supreme.

 

[JakeStarkey]

In other words you just got pawned and haven't got a clue true story.

In other words, the states had no such power, rebelled, and got their sons murdered for it. True story.

No state jake?

Section 2. Self-government. The people have the exclusive right of governing themselves as a free, sovereign, and independent state. They may alter or abolish the constitution and form of government whenever they deem it necessary.
Montana Constitution, Article II, Section 2. Self-government.

TITLE 97- WYOMING CONSTITUTION



97-1-001. Power inherent in the people.



All power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority, and instituted for their peace, safety and happiness; for the advancement of these ends they have at all times an inalienable and indefeasible right to alter, reform or abolish the government in such manner as they may think proper.
Wyoming Constitution

Constitution of Oregon - 2009 Edition

Section 1. Natural rights inherent in people. We declare that all men, when they form a social compact are equal in right: that all power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority, and instituted for their peace, safety, and happiness; and they have at all times a right to alter, reform, or abolish the government in such manner as they may think proper
http://www.leg.state.or.us/orcons/orcons.html

Maine
Section 2. Power inherent in people. All power is inherent in the people; all free governments are founded in their authority and instituted for their benefit; they have therefore an unalienable and indefeasible right to institute government, and to alter, reform, or totally change the same, when their safety and happiness require it.
Constitution OF Maine

But state law does not trump the Constitution. The Constitution does not provide any such thing for the states. The Founders did not demand such a thing because it was unimaginable.

You are so silly, bigrebnc. You lost, dear.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Some of the schizoid states of the South followed the bigrebnc theory of secession and were properly executed by the national government. They had to accept the 13th and 14th Amendments, kiss the federal government's ass, and were allowed back in the union.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

In other words you just got pawned and haven't got a clue true story.

In other words, the states had no such power, rebelled, and got their sons murdered for it. True story.

No state jake?

Section 2. Self-government. The people have the exclusive right of governing themselves as a free, sovereign, and independent state. They may alter or abolish the constitution and form of government whenever they deem it necessary.
Montana Constitution, Article II, Section 2. Self-government.

TITLE 97- WYOMING CONSTITUTION



97-1-001. Power inherent in the people.



All power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority, and instituted for their peace, safety and happiness; for the advancement of these ends they have at all times an inalienable and indefeasible right to alter, reform or abolish the government in such manner as they may think proper.
Wyoming Constitution

Constitution of Oregon - 2009 Edition

Section 1. Natural rights inherent in people. We declare that all men, when they form a social compact are equal in right: that all power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority, and instituted for their peace, safety, and happiness; and they have at all times a right to alter, reform, or abolish the government in such manner as they may think proper
http://www.leg.state.or.us/orcons/orcons.html

Maine
Section 2. Power inherent in people. All power is inherent in the people; all free governments are founded in their authority and instituted for their benefit; they have therefore an unalienable and indefeasible right to institute government, and to alter, reform, or totally change the same, when their safety and happiness require it.
Constitution OF Maine

Ohio
§ 1.02 Right to alter, reform, or abolish government, and repeal special privileges (1851)
[ View Article Table of Contents ]

All political power is inherent in the people. Government is instituted for their equal protection and benefit, and they have the right to alter, reform, or abolish the same, whenever they may deem it necessary; and no special privileges or immunities shall ever be granted, that may not be altered, revoked, or repealed by the general assembly.
Constitution Online

New Hampshire
[Art.] 10. [Right of Revolution.] Government being instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security, of the whole community, and not for the private interest or emolument of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are ineffectual, the people may, and of right ought to reform the old, or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.

June 2, 1784


NH.gov - The Official Web Site of New Hampshire State Government - State Constitution, Bill of Rights

Do I need to continue junior?

 

[JakeStarkey]

In other words, the states had no such power, rebelled, and got their sons murdered for it. True story.

No state jake?

Section 2. Self-government. The people have the exclusive right of governing themselves as a free, sovereign, and independent state. They may alter or abolish the constitution and form of government whenever they deem it necessary.
Montana Constitution, Article II, Section 2. Self-government.

TITLE 97- WYOMING CONSTITUTION



97-1-001. Power inherent in the people.



All power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority, and instituted for their peace, safety and happiness; for the advancement of these ends they have at all times an inalienable and indefeasible right to alter, reform or abolish the government in such manner as they may think proper.
Wyoming Constitution

Constitution of Oregon - 2009 Edition

Section 1. Natural rights inherent in people. We declare that all men, when they form a social compact are equal in right: that all power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority, and instituted for their peace, safety, and happiness; and they have at all times a right to alter, reform, or abolish the government in such manner as they may think proper
http://www.leg.state.or.us/orcons/orcons.html

Maine
Section 2. Power inherent in people. All power is inherent in the people; all free governments are founded in their authority and instituted for their benefit; they have therefore an unalienable and indefeasible right to institute government, and to alter, reform, or totally change the same, when their safety and happiness require it.
Constitution OF Maine

Ohio
§ 1.02 Right to alter, reform, or abolish government, and repeal special privileges (1851)
[ View Article Table of Contents ]

All political power is inherent in the people. Government is instituted for their equal protection and benefit, and they have the right to alter, reform, or abolish the same, whenever they may deem it necessary; and no special privileges or immunities shall ever be granted, that may not be altered, revoked, or repealed by the general assembly.
Constitution Online

New Hampshire
[Art.] 10. [Right of Revolution.] Government being instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security, of the whole community, and not for the private interest or emolument of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are ineffectual, the people may, and of right ought to reform the old, or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.

June 2, 1784


NH.gov - The Official Web Site of New Hampshire State Government - State Constitution, Bill of Rights

Do I need to continue junior?

You've lost. Show me where state law trumps national supremacy. You could pass a law saying you are a woman, but you are not.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

In other words, the states had no such power, rebelled, and got their sons murdered for it. True story.

No state jake?

Section 2. Self-government. The people have the exclusive right of governing themselves as a free, sovereign, and independent state. They may alter or abolish the constitution and form of government whenever they deem it necessary.
Montana Constitution, Article II, Section 2. Self-government.

TITLE 97- WYOMING CONSTITUTION



97-1-001. Power inherent in the people.



All power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority, and instituted for their peace, safety and happiness; for the advancement of these ends they have at all times an inalienable and indefeasible right to alter, reform or abolish the government in such manner as they may think proper.
Wyoming Constitution

Constitution of Oregon - 2009 Edition

Section 1. Natural rights inherent in people. We declare that all men, when they form a social compact are equal in right: that all power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority, and instituted for their peace, safety, and happiness; and they have at all times a right to alter, reform, or abolish the government in such manner as they may think proper
http://www.leg.state.or.us/orcons/orcons.html

Maine
Section 2. Power inherent in people. All power is inherent in the people; all free governments are founded in their authority and instituted for their benefit; they have therefore an unalienable and indefeasible right to institute government, and to alter, reform, or totally change the same, when their safety and happiness require it.
Constitution OF Maine

But state law does not trump the Constitution. The Constitution does not provide any such thing for the states. The Founders did not demand such a thing because it was unimaginable.

You are so silly, bigrebnc. You lost, dear.

silly boy every state I used had certain words in that can also be found in the U.S. Constitution and Delcaration of Independence. Such as ( Self-government,Natural rights) it means the same thing in the U.S. Constitution as it does for the states constitution