Our founding fathers were not conservative

[AllieBaba]

The Founders were, in the end, "rats" and "anti-rats", the liberals and conservatives for their days. The difference revolved around how much power the national government should have, and of course, Washington and Hamilton and Adams and Madison (initially) and Marshall and Jay and others were all big government dudes.

Nice try.

 

[AllieBaba]

Well, let's think it through.

The fundamental values espoused by the Founders and Framers when it comes to government is in line with the thinking of today's conservatives.

The liberals reject the Founders' and Framers' notions of the proper role of government, by and large.

So, if it's true that in their day the Founders were not "conservatives," it's also true that in our day they would be anything but "liberals."

Likewise, if we adopt the simplistic view that any group that rises against the current government is "liberal", todays liberals are anything but. Since they are desperately trying to maintain current government practices and bloated programs, and in fact continue to attempt to add to them.

 

[Intense]

Well, let's think it through.

The fundamental values espoused by the Founders and Framers when it comes to government is in line with the thinking of today's conservatives.

The liberals reject the Founders' and Framers' notions of the proper role of government, by and large.

So, if it's true that in their day the Founders were not "conservatives," it's also true that in our day they would be anything but "liberals."

Likewise, if we adopt the simplistic view that any group that rises against the current government is "liberal", todays liberals are anything but. Since they are desperately trying to maintain current government practices and bloated programs, and in fact continue to attempt to add to them.

It is interesting how when a new Statute comes from the Left, it is looked as untouchable. We really can't afford to swallow everything they or anyone is trying to feed us without question. Nothing is beyond question or reason.

 

[Agit8r]

You are right. There was no such thing as liberal or conservative back then. Our founding fathers were christians, which the liberals hate.

Wrong on both counts. Many founding fathers were agnostic; I suspect all were, while they did do political posturing just the same as today's politicians do. As far as liberals, they certainly were. They were profoundly influenced by John Locke.

Care to give the names of all the founders who were agnostics?

they did do political posturing just the same as today's politicians do

You're comparing the founders of America to modern politicians? I doubt many would give their life for this country. I doubt they would give up their wealth to save it.

As far as liberals, they certainly were.

And nope the founders of America are nothing close to the modern day liberal. Modern liberals embrace big government, modern liberals like to take other people. The founders of America bare no resemblance to modern day liberalism.
Sorry but you failed.

Well, not all people who call themselves liberal are for big government.

Also, while saying that our founders could not be considered modern day "liberals" or "progressives" would be true, to say they bare "no resemblance" is incorrect.

 

[Danaelle]

Liberals tell us the founders rejected the notion that we were a powerless nation ruled by a foreign Monarch -- so we could become a nation of sock puppets ruled by Washington DC

Benjamin Martin: Would you tell me, please, Mister Howard, why should I trade one tyrant three thousand miles away for three thousand tyrants one mile away?

An elected legislature can trample a man's rights as easily as a King can.

 

[Liability]

"Do you agree with them (and with me) that too much centralization of power in the Federal Government is a dangerous thing and worthy of being avoided?"

yes, of course. When i speak of modern conservatism, i am speaking of the mainstream of that movement. If there are some on the fringes of what is called "conservatism" that feared the power that George W. Bush wielded in his first term, that does not disprove what i said. I DID NOT say that our founders were in line with modern "liberalism"/"progressivism." It also means very little that they did not because MOST LIBERALS MAKE NO PRETENSE that they are originalists.

However, MOST CONSERVATIVES do believe that they embody the very same ideals as our founding fathers, and they are wrong. That is the point i was making; that most conservatives are either ignorant or phonies

But it's you who are wrong.

Modern day conservatism absolutely embraces (again, for the most part) the values of the Founders when it comes to the only issue of actual importance in this discussion: the proper role of government.

That you either cannot see that or refuse to see it or admit speaks to the lack of clarity and honesty inherent in modern American liberalism.

 

[Sallow]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

They obviously weren't conservative. They were revolutionaries, which makes them radicals.

Revolutions and revolutionaries are not just results of left wing or leftist politics or ideologies

True enough.

But right wing "revolutions" tend to be ones that restore royalty, a military dictator or some other form of authoritarian government. That's not to say it doesn't happen, well the authoritarian part, in left wing revolutions, but right wing revolts seldom have a democratic outcome.

 

[Intense]

The Religion of Modern Liberalism is Statism. Total control of thought, word, and deed, 24/7, cradle to grave. To even suggest an affinity with our founding principles is about as low as you can go.

 

[Intense]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

They obviously weren't conservative. They were revolutionaries, which makes them radicals.

Right Wing Radicals, or Wing Nuts as you like to refer to us.

 

[Liability]

I think this is a whale of a thread. Although I do not agree with many of the positions held by agit8r, I think it's appropriate to give him due credit for this thread.

Whatever position(s) we may hold, I wish MANY many more Americans would take up this discussion in earnest and often.

 

[Intense]

I think this is a whale of a thread. Although I do not agree with many of the positions held by agit8r, I think it's appropriate to give him due credit for this thread.

Whatever position(s) we may hold, I wish MANY many more Americans would take up this discussion in earnest and often.

I do pick up on some Chameleon tendencies here, imitation to facilitate a hijacking. There is an agenda behind the action, the distortion.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Wrong on both counts. Many founding fathers were agnostic; I suspect all were, while they did do political posturing just the same as today's politicians do. As far as liberals, they certainly were. They were profoundly influenced by John Locke.

Care to give the names of all the founders who were agnostics?


You're comparing the founders of America to modern politicians? I doubt many would give their life for this country. I doubt they would give up their wealth to save it.

As far as liberals, they certainly were.

And nope the founders of America are nothing close to the modern day liberal. Modern liberals embrace big government, modern liberals like to take other people. The founders of America bare no resemblance to modern day liberalism.
Sorry but you failed.

Well, not all people who call themselves liberal are for big government.

Also, while saying that our founders could not be considered modern day "liberals" or "progressives" would be true, to say they bare "no resemblance" is incorrect.

The founding fathers of this country are more like modern day Libertrians.
Not liberals not conservatives but Libertrians

 

[mal]

Lincoln showed us an example of what it's like to be presidential. No single issue is more important then the nation.

Before I read Walter Williams thoughts I'm gonna say that it doesn't matter what someone else thinks. It's what Lincoln thought that matters. Or are you trying to say that Williams could read his mind years after his death? Lincoln's comments were about what was his primary concerns not that he didn't care about slavery.

We seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing here.

I've made my point. You can keep yours if you want...but a floating argument isn't gonna prove you're right.

When it came to the Civil War, I don't Believe he did Care about Slavery... You, myself nor Walter Williams will EVER Know, but I can Quote Lincoln Justifying the Civil War with his at best Nuetral Stance on Slavery at THAT time...

What he did with the Political Capital he had after the War is another Debate.

peace...

This is my simple opinion, and anyone can accept it, reject it, or modify it. I do believe he did abhorred slavery as an institution that harmed the Union. He also believed that it was constitutionally protected. More than a year and a half passed after Ft Sumter before he moved decisively on the issue. I believe he had come to the conclusion that the institution had to be destroyed in order to make a better America after the war.

As an aside: Walt (with whom I have chatted by email a few times over the last fifteen years) cracks me up about race and slavery. In part because he considers John C. Calhoun one of America's great politicians. This from a man whom would only have been allowed by John C. to push a broom in a newspaper office.

Takes all kinds.

Again... I wasn't Questioning Lincoln's Personal Views on Slavery... I was Questioning the False Perception that FAR too many have in this Country that he Fought the War to Free Slaves...

That's Simply Untrue.



peace...

 

[JakeStarkey]

You can believe that wrongly, bigrenbc, if you want. The Founders would just laugh at you as we do.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I agree with you, Mal, 100% that Lincoln was about preservation of the Union always, always, always, before getting rid of slavery. By the summer of 1862, I think he came to realize that to preserve the union in perpetuity that slavery would have to perish.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Lincoln showed us an example of what it's like to be presidential. No single issue is more important then the nation.

Before I read Walter Williams thoughts I'm gonna say that it doesn't matter what someone else thinks. It's what Lincoln thought that matters. Or are you trying to say that Williams could read his mind years after his death? Lincoln's comments were about what was his primary concerns not that he didn't care about slavery.

We seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing here.

I've made my point. You can keep yours if you want...but a floating argument isn't gonna prove you're right.

When it came to the Civil War, I don't Believe he did Care about Slavery... You, myself nor Walter Williams will EVER Know, but I can Quote Lincoln Justifying the Civil War with his at best Nuetral Stance on Slavery at THAT time...

What he did with the Political Capital he had after the War is another Debate.

peace...

This is my simple opinion, and anyone can accept it, reject it, or modify it. I do believe he did abhorred slavery as an institution that harmed the Union. He also believed that it was constitutionally protected. More than a year and a half passed after Ft Sumter before he moved decisively on the issue. I believe he had come to the conclusion that the institution had to be destroyed in order to make a better America after the war.

As an aside: Walt (with whom I have chatted by email a few times over the last fifteen years) cracks me up about race and slavery. In part because he considers John C. Calhoun one of America's great politicians. This from a man whom would only have been allowed by John C. to push a broom in a newspaper office.

Takes all kinds.

Jake to give Lincoln a pass on slavery, is dishonest. Read lincolns own words if you doubt me. He was neither for it or against it. He was for the law. until he became a dictator and resended the Posse Comitatus Act

 

[JakeStarkey]

Read what I wrote, moron. Read all of it. That you dislike me because I pwn you every day and in every way is not the point here. Read what I wrote, moron.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Read what I wrote, moron. Read all of it. That you dislike me because I pwn you every day and in every way is not the point here. Read what I wrote, moron.

I really don't give a shit what your opinion is *****. All I will say is read Lincolns words. Thats all.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You obviously have not read his words, and I will ***** slap you every time you act like trash here.

Lincoln gave no one a pass on slavery, most of all himself. He came a long, long way on the issue over many decades. By the time of his death, AL believed that educated blacks and black Union veterans should possibly have the vote. That is a long way from his position seven years earlier in the Lincoln-Douglas debates.

Don't ever think you can correct me on these issues without me making you look like the 'barely four steps past illiteracy' moron you are.

 

[mudwhistle]

You obviously have not read his words, and I will ***** slap you every time you act like trash here.

Lincoln gave no one a pass on slavery, most of all himself. He came a long, long way on the issue over many decades. By the time of his death, AL believed that educated blacks and black Union veterans should possibly have the vote. That is a long way from his position seven years earlier in the Lincoln-Douglas debates.

Don't ever think you can correct me on these issues without me making you look like the 'barely four steps past illiteracy' moron you are.

Still talking tough?

Gonna tell me about how tough you are again?

Do us all a favor and STFU.