Our founding fathers were not conservative

[bigrebnc1775]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

You are right. There was no such thing as liberal or conservative back then. Our founding fathers were christians, which the liberals hate.

Wrong on both counts. Many founding fathers were agnostic; I suspect all were, while they did do political posturing just the same as today's politicians do. As far as liberals, they certainly were. They were profoundly influenced by John Locke.

Many founding fathers were agnostic; I suspect all were

Care to give the names of all the founders who were agnostics?

they did do political posturing just the same as today's politicians do

You're comparing the founders of America to modern politicians? I doubt many would give their life for this country. I doubt they would give up their wealth to save it.

As far as liberals, they certainly were.

And nope the founders of America are nothing close to the modern day liberal. Modern liberals embrace big government, modern liberals like to take other people. The founders of America bare no resemblance to modern day liberalism.
Sorry but you failed.

 

[mudwhistle]

Over 200 years ago someone who thought outside the box was somebody who thought being taxed by the crown was wrong and not owning slaves was too much of a hardship. Anyone who thought that way was considered to be too liberal.

Incidentally; Do you think the founding fathers supported abortion, illegal immigration, homosexuality, Islamic Fundamentalists, communism, Marxism, controlling everything we put into our bodies, preventing children from harm at every opportunity, prevent the display of Christian symbols, pushed diversity down everyone's throats, and establish government funded health care ins. and unemployment ins. that never seems to run out. In effect welfare? Do you think they felt that carbon dioxide was a poison?

Nope....what they were back then is nothing like the liberals of today. So it doesn't matter what label you give them. They aren't like the liberals of today regardless how you slice it or rationalize it. The meaning has changed so much over the years that the founding fathers would make Archie Bunker look liberal.

Pretty soon the left is gonna try to say that Jesus was a wine-swilling homeless person.

Too late. Somebody already has.

 

[editec]

The point that social democratic institutions are not Marxist is hard for the far right wackloons to grasp because of their lack of understanding of basic definitions.

You revisionists are entitled to your own opinions but not to your own reality or set of definitions.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinions but not their own FACTS.

One of the ways people like to augment their weak arguments is to use words incorrectly in the hope that the use of the word will obfuscate the true nature of the issue at hand.

 

[mudwhistle]

The point that social democratic institutions are not Marxist is hard for the far right wackloons to grasp because of their lack of understanding of basic definitions.

You revisionists are entitled to your own opinions but not to your own reality or set of definitions.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinions but not their own FACTS.

One of the ways people like to augment their weak arguments is to use words incorrectly in the hope that the use of the word will obfuscate the true nature of the issue at hand.

Excellent point there ed.

 

[mal]

To suggest that Jefferson should of turned slaves loose, without the means to be self-sufficient, in a world where they would be Lambs amongst Wolves shows nothing less than ignorance of history and the culture of the world during those times.

Good post, however isn't that exactly what Lincoln did when he freed the slaves. I don't recall the government doing anything to make them self-sufficient.

Freeing the Slaves was NEVER Lincoln's Goal... He said so in very Specific Terms...

It was a Byproduct of his Obsession to Retain the Union.

Look it up.



peace...

 

[mudwhistle]

To suggest that Jefferson should of turned slaves loose, without the means to be self-sufficient, in a world where they would be Lambs amongst Wolves shows nothing less than ignorance of history and the culture of the world during those times.

Good post, however isn't that exactly what Lincoln did when he freed the slaves. I don't recall the government doing anything to make them self-sufficient.

Freeing the Slaves was NEVER Lincoln's Goal... He said so in very Specific Terms...

It was a Byproduct of his Obsession to Retain the Union.

Look it up.



peace...

I wouldn't go that far but I would say that freeing slaves wasn't his primary concerns, however it was one of his concerns and it wasn't ratified till after his death.
He was murdered because of it....so I believe he paid a price for wanting to give folks freedom. What's worse is a Democrat murdered him because of it......and by an actor no less. Probably gay too. (Just kidding)

 

[mal]

Good post, however isn't that exactly what Lincoln did when he freed the slaves. I don't recall the government doing anything to make them self-sufficient.

Freeing the Slaves was NEVER Lincoln's Goal... He said so in very Specific Terms...

It was a Byproduct of his Obsession to Retain the Union.

Look it up.



peace...

I wouldn't go that far but I would say that freeing slaves wasn't his primary concerns, however it was one of his concerns and it wasn't ratified till after his death.
He was murdered because of it....so I believe he paid a price for wanting to give folks freedom. What's worse is a Democrat murdered him because of it......and by an actor no less. Probably gay too. (Just kidding)

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union."

Abraham Lincoln in 1862 on his justification for the Northern War of Aggression against the constitutional secession of the South.



peace...

 

[mudwhistle]

Freeing the Slaves was NEVER Lincoln's Goal... He said so in very Specific Terms...

It was a Byproduct of his Obsession to Retain the Union.

Look it up.



peace...

I wouldn't go that far but I would say that freeing slaves wasn't his primary concerns, however it was one of his concerns and it wasn't ratified till after his death.
He was murdered because of it....so I believe he paid a price for wanting to give folks freedom. What's worse is a Democrat murdered him because of it......and by an actor no less. Probably gay too. (Just kidding)

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union."

Abraham Lincoln in 1862 on his justification for the Northern War of Aggression against the constitutional secession of the South.



peace...

Thanks for proving one of my points.

On the other....

What he thought and what others perceived may have been two differing perceptions. He did die because of his stance on slavery. He felt the Union or this country was bigger then any man or any issue. It's rare that you find a leader that believes that with all of his heart and soul. It would be great if Obama would take that to heart.

 

[mal]

I wouldn't go that far but I would say that freeing slaves wasn't his primary concerns, however it was one of his concerns and it wasn't ratified till after his death.
He was murdered because of it....so I believe he paid a price for wanting to give folks freedom. What's worse is a Democrat murdered him because of it......and by an actor no less. Probably gay too. (Just kidding)

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union."

Abraham Lincoln in 1862 on his justification for the Northern War of Aggression against the constitutional secession of the South.



peace...

Thanks for proving one of my points.

On the other....

What he thought and what others perceived may have been two differing perceptions. He did die because of his stance on slavery. He felt the Union or this country was bigger then any man or any issue. It's rare that you find a leader that believes that with all of his heart and soul. It would be great if Obama would take that to heart.

That Quote Illustrates my original Post... Precisely.

As for the Politics after the War, they were what they were...

I was Referring to the War itself.



peace...

 

[mudwhistle]

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union."

Abraham Lincoln in 1862 on his justification for the Northern War of Aggression against the constitutional secession of the South.



peace...

Thanks for proving one of my points.

On the other....

What he thought and what others perceived may have been two differing perceptions. He did die because of his stance on slavery. He felt the Union or this country was bigger then any man or any issue. It's rare that you find a leader that believes that with all of his heart and soul. It would be great if Obama would take that to heart.

That Quote Illustrates my original Post... Precisely.

As for the Politics after the War, they were what they were...

I was Referring to the War itself.



peace...

You're taking it too literally and not in it's proper context.

Lincoln was saying that the union was more important then any hot-button issue of the day.

Look at it from that context and tell me that's not what you see.

 

[mal]

Thanks for proving one of my points.

On the other....

What he thought and what others perceived may have been two differing perceptions. He did die because of his stance on slavery. He felt the Union or this country was bigger then any man or any issue. It's rare that you find a leader that believes that with all of his heart and soul. It would be great if Obama would take that to heart.

That Quote Illustrates my original Post... Precisely.

As for the Politics after the War, they were what they were...

I was Referring to the War itself.



peace...

You're taking it too literally and not in it's proper context.

Lincoln was saying that the union was more important then any hot-button issue of the day.

Look at it from that context and tell me that's not what you see.

The Context is that Slavery was NOT his Primary Concern at all, Saving the Union was...

My Comment was in Relation to the Civil War Specifically, not the Politics that Followed the War...

I should probably have been more clear on that in my original Post in this Thread.

Here is Walter Williams better Illustrating the Point:

Walter Williams



peace...

 

[mudwhistle]

That Quote Illustrates my original Post... Precisely.

As for the Politics after the War, they were what they were...

I was Referring to the War itself.



peace...

You're taking it too literally and not in it's proper context.

Lincoln was saying that the union was more important then any hot-button issue of the day.

Look at it from that context and tell me that's not what you see.

The Context is that Slavery was NOT his Primary Concern at all, Saving the Union was...

My Comment was in Relation to the Civil War Specifically, not the Politics that Followed the War...

I should probably have been more clear on that in my original Post in this Thread.

Here is Walter Williams better Illustrating the Point:

Walter Williams



peace...

Lincoln showed us an example of what it's like to be presidential. No single issue is more important then the nation.

Before I read Walter Williams thoughts I'm gonna say that it doesn't matter what someone else thinks. It's what Lincoln thought that matters. Or are you trying to say that Williams could read his mind years after his death? Lincoln's comments were about what was his primary concerns not that he didn't care about slavery.

We seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing here.

I've made my point. You can keep yours if you want...but a floating argument isn't gonna prove you're right.

 

[mudwhistle]

I believe Walter Williams often fills in for Rush Limbaugh.

Many times we hear folks say Abraham Lincoln didn't care about slavery. If it was tearing this country apart and Lincoln wanted to get rid of it....then I believe Williams may have the wrong impression. It seems with some one's intentions are more important then the result.

Lincoln wanted to remove an issue that was destroying the nation. It was just one of the issues but it was enough of a wedge to cause unwanted divisions. It was divisive at a time that the nation was in a fragile state, so he felt it had to go. If he didn't he wouldn't have bothered with it. His original intent in 1862 wasn't the same as it was in 1864. He felt that he had no legal right to end slavery but two years later he wrote the Emancipation Proclamation.

 

[JakeStarkey]

AL, in my simple opinion, did care about slavery as a moral and human wrong. His recounting of his experience observing the slave market in New Orleans as a young man; his re-entry into politics because of the Kansas-Nebraska Act made it possible for slavery to enter the territories there; his remarks in debate with Stephen A. Douglas in 1858; his struggle to preserve the Union while preparing to free the slaves if possible ~~ all of this shows a man struggling with the premier moral issue of the day.

America and its leaders are defined by our contradictions personally and politically. He would preserve the Union at the expense of possibly never freeing any of the slaves, but I believe that he felt slavery had to be ended, if nothing more than it threatened the preservation of the Union.

 

[DiamondDave]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

They obviously weren't conservative. They were revolutionaries, which makes them radicals.

Revolutions and revolutionaries are not just results of left wing or leftist politics or ideologies

 

[mal]

You're taking it too literally and not in it's proper context.

Lincoln was saying that the union was more important then any hot-button issue of the day.

Look at it from that context and tell me that's not what you see.

The Context is that Slavery was NOT his Primary Concern at all, Saving the Union was...

My Comment was in Relation to the Civil War Specifically, not the Politics that Followed the War...

I should probably have been more clear on that in my original Post in this Thread.

Here is Walter Williams better Illustrating the Point:

Walter Williams



peace...

Lincoln showed us an example of what it's like to be presidential. No single issue is more important then the nation.

Before I read Walter Williams thoughts I'm gonna say that it doesn't matter what someone else thinks. It's what Lincoln thought that matters. Or are you trying to say that Williams could read his mind years after his death? Lincoln's comments were about what was his primary concerns not that he didn't care about slavery.

We seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing here.

I've made my point. You can keep yours if you want...but a floating argument isn't gonna prove you're right.

When it came to the Civil War, I don't Believe he did Care about Slavery... You, myself nor Walter Williams will EVER Know, but I can Quote Lincoln Justifying the Civil War with his at best Nuetral Stance on Slavery at THAT time...

What he did with the Political Capital he had after the War is another Debate.



peace...

 

[Sallow]

The correct term is "Thrown Under The Bus", from Grandma to Hillary, it's the same MO.

There is no "correct term". What is not being understood is that the Democratic Party is not Binary like the Republican party. One can have liberals, progressive, conservatives and moderates with Democrats. That's simply no the case with Republicans. Either you are an extremist conservative or you are not. They have a litmus test as well. And they are moving more and more to the right. They are making Birchers look sane.

Watch out now or you might as well get thrown under the Bus. I know you came here to cheer us up and all, I respect that, , I just don't want you to get hurt by your Party, for having an original thought or opinion.

The last election basically backs my premise. Nothing I posted was unsound.

 

[mudwhistle]

The Context is that Slavery was NOT his Primary Concern at all, Saving the Union was...

My Comment was in Relation to the Civil War Specifically, not the Politics that Followed the War...

I should probably have been more clear on that in my original Post in this Thread.

Here is Walter Williams better Illustrating the Point:

Walter Williams



peace...

Lincoln showed us an example of what it's like to be presidential. No single issue is more important then the nation.

Before I read Walter Williams thoughts I'm gonna say that it doesn't matter what someone else thinks. It's what Lincoln thought that matters. Or are you trying to say that Williams could read his mind years after his death? Lincoln's comments were about what was his primary concerns not that he didn't care about slavery.

We seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing here.

I've made my point. You can keep yours if you want...but a floating argument isn't gonna prove you're right.

When it came to the Civil War, I don't Believe he did Care about Slavery... You, myself nor Walter Williams will EVER Know, but I can Quote Lincoln Justifying the Civil War with his at best Nuetral Stance on Slavery at THAT time...

What he did with the Political Capital he had after the War is another Debate.



peace...

Once again....if he didn't care about the issue he never would have bothered with it. If he liked slavery he would have supported it. He didn't have to take a side....but he did.

 

[mal]

Lincoln showed us an example of what it's like to be presidential. No single issue is more important then the nation.

Before I read Walter Williams thoughts I'm gonna say that it doesn't matter what someone else thinks. It's what Lincoln thought that matters. Or are you trying to say that Williams could read his mind years after his death? Lincoln's comments were about what was his primary concerns not that he didn't care about slavery.

We seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing here.

I've made my point. You can keep yours if you want...but a floating argument isn't gonna prove you're right.

When it came to the Civil War, I don't Believe he did Care about Slavery... You, myself nor Walter Williams will EVER Know, but I can Quote Lincoln Justifying the Civil War with his at best Nuetral Stance on Slavery at THAT time...

What he did with the Political Capital he had after the War is another Debate.



peace...

Once again....if he didn't care about the issue he never would have bothered with it. If he liked slavery he would have supported it. He didn't have to take a side....but he did.

Politically Convenient after the Fact... I never called him Pro-Slavery...

I'm not Certain what you are Arguing about.

His Words Pre-Civil War were Clear...

His Actions, Political as they were, AFTER the Civil War are what they are.

He wasn't Motivated by Slavery... He was Motivated by Saving the Union.

He said so VERY Clearly.



peace...

 

[JakeStarkey]

The Context is that Slavery was NOT his Primary Concern at all, Saving the Union was...

My Comment was in Relation to the Civil War Specifically, not the Politics that Followed the War...

I should probably have been more clear on that in my original Post in this Thread.

Here is Walter Williams better Illustrating the Point:

Walter Williams



peace...

Lincoln showed us an example of what it's like to be presidential. No single issue is more important then the nation.

Before I read Walter Williams thoughts I'm gonna say that it doesn't matter what someone else thinks. It's what Lincoln thought that matters. Or are you trying to say that Williams could read his mind years after his death? Lincoln's comments were about what was his primary concerns not that he didn't care about slavery.

We seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing here.

I've made my point. You can keep yours if you want...but a floating argument isn't gonna prove you're right.

When it came to the Civil War, I don't Believe he did Care about Slavery... You, myself nor Walter Williams will EVER Know, but I can Quote Lincoln Justifying the Civil War with his at best Nuetral Stance on Slavery at THAT time...

What he did with the Political Capital he had after the War is another Debate.

peace...

This is my simple opinion, and anyone can accept it, reject it, or modify it. I do believe he did abhorred slavery as an institution that harmed the Union. He also believed that it was constitutionally protected. More than a year and a half passed after Ft Sumter before he moved decisively on the issue. I believe he had come to the conclusion that the institution had to be destroyed in order to make a better America after the war.

As an aside: Walt (with whom I have chatted by email a few times over the last fifteen years) cracks me up about race and slavery. In part because he considers John C. Calhoun one of America's great politicians. This from a man whom would only have been allowed by John C. to push a broom in a newspaper office.

Takes all kinds.