Orthodox Jews and Zionism

[amity1844]

Oh how nice, Amity is showing us one of those crazies who is a favorite of the NeoNazi/Islamofascist hate sites. See his beard, Amity. If your beard grows like his, you can accompany him to Iran when he next visits his crazy friends there.
By the way, folks, if you check out some of the hate sites, you will see this guy featured there.

Did you count the numbers of extremist Jews in the video, no more than a thousand if you are lucky, and not one of them does a days work as it is beneath them

There are 10,00 people in that meeting in lower Manhattan, and that is just Manhattan and other boroughs. NYC in other words. Does not count Israel.

Forgive me if I used the term "orthodox" with a small "o" inappropriately. it was done in ignorance. i didn't want anyone to think I was talking about Greek/Russian Orthodoxy.

The point is that many different Orthodox Jewish groups are now united against doing military service in Israel. Do we (you) care whether a 2000+ year old way of life that is much more characteristically Jewish than Zionism could ever be comes to an END forever?

Every nation has its nationalists. No other nation has what the Jewish people have in the Torah scholars. Will Zionism be the end of Judaism?

Rabbi Shapiro says "we will make sure they leave us alone." I don't know what he has in mind, but the specter of Orthodox Jews leaving Israel en masse, or being imprisoned in greater numbers even than Palestinians, is not going to play well in Peoria.

(Reform and conservative don't really count do they? )

 

[MHunterB]

Again, he does not - NOT! - speak for 'Orthodox' Judaism. He doesn't even speak for all Haredim (the "fundamentalist" contingent of Judaism).

Why would you fantasize that 'Reform and Conservative don't really count', anyway? Do you even have a clue how asinine and arrogant such a snide remark is?

 

[MHunterB]

"New York City is also home to the world headquarters of the Hasidic Chabad-Lubavitch group and the Bobover, Pupa, Vizhnitz and Satmar branches of Hasidism, ultra-Orthodox sects of Judaism."

Now to call them 'ultra-Orthodox' is an insult to Orthodoxy, but that's from Wiki..... Here's the point:"

The NK and Satmar are subsets of the Hasidic tradition - and in point of FACT were semi 'excommunicated' by mainstream Orthodoxy a few hundred years ago. It is like an altogether separate religion, like 'FLDS' compared to mainstream Protestant sects in Christianity.

If every last NK and Satmar are against Zionism: they are far from the mainstream of Orthodox Judaism and heading farther away daily. Set aside 'Zionism' and 'secularism', and they are STILL a tiny minority and on the fringe: they do not want a woman EVER in any leadership position, nor even working outside the home. Meanwhile, 'Modern Orthodoxy' is getting closer to approving the ordination of women - which would bring them in line with the other movements of Judaism.

If you believe that the women of a religious congregation should pray from up in a balcony *behind a curtain* - and that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed in! - then you're welcome to join the NKs.

 

[MHunterB]

Again, there you are at a loss for words, so you elect to just waste bandwidth rather than say something substantive.

I used the term "orthodox Jews" because the speaker used it to self-describe. Everyone gets to self-identify, its a right they have, and you and I don't often get to say "no, he's not what he thinks he is."

The rest of 'Orthodox' Judaism has formally rejected them - and they Orthodoxy. I can't go so far as to say they are not Jews at all - but the entire rest of the Jewish People would like a divorce from these medieval fanatic cultists. And that includes a lot of the other 'Hasidic' sects as well as those of us who accept women in the Rabbinate.....

BTW: there are about 1.2 MILLION Jews in NYC: so 'ten thousand plus' isn't even 1%.

 

[amity1844]

Again, he does not - NOT! - speak for 'Orthodox' Judaism. He doesn't even speak for all Haredim (the "fundamentalist" contingent of Judaism).

Why would you fantasize that 'Reform and Conservative don't really count', anyway? Do you even have a clue how asinine and arrogant such a snide remark is?

I don't know that he is one of the representatives, or just a spokesman..

At any rate, these people THINK they are Orthodox Jews and they are a few hundred thousand strong worldwide.

The reason I am saying that Reform and Conservative don't count is
#1 they haven't asked for a military exemption anyway.
#2 they are not really preserving the Jewish religious heritage in the same sense that the Orthodox are. Conservative and Reform congregations have made major modifications to Judaism to basically make it easier to adhere to in the modern assimilated life. I guess the reasoning is that a little Judaism is better than no Judaism at all. That in itself is anathema to Orthodox. Judaism will never be reborn if it is in effect killed through conscription.

 

[MHunterB]

Again, he does not - NOT! - speak for 'Orthodox' Judaism. He doesn't even speak for all Haredim (the "fundamentalist" contingent of Judaism).

Why would you fantasize that 'Reform and Conservative don't really count', anyway? Do you even have a clue how asinine and arrogant such a snide remark is?

I don't know that he is one of the representatives, or just a spokesman..

At any rate, these people THINK they are Orthodox Jews and they are a few hundred thousand strong worldwide.

The reason I am saying that Reform and Conservative don't count is
#1 they haven't asked for a military exemption anyway.
#2 they are not really preserving the Jewish religious heritage in the same sense that the Orthodox are. Conservative and Reform congregations have made major modifications to Judaism to basically make it easier to adhere to in the modern assimilated life. I guess the reasoning is that a little Judaism is better than no Judaism at all. That in itself is anathema to Orthodox. Judaism will never be reborn if it is in effect killed through conscription.

You don't have any right whatsoever to say which streams of Judaism 'count' - as you earlier acknowledged.

Nor do you have any right to decide for anyone what is or isn't 'authentic ' Judaism. You don't have even a basic understanding of Judaism to begin with, so you are simply not qualified because of such extreme ignorance.

In making such comments as you have above, you are in essence passing judgment on what Judaism 'should be': this is incredibly arrogant and vile because you KNOW you have no voice in how other people practice their religion.

Why do you think such behavior would ever be tolerated by anyone?

Whether 'modifications' are major or minor, you have not the knowledge to judge - as you should have figured out by now.

There's nothing wrong with any non-Jew being so ignorant of Judaism: after all, with only 14 million of us in the whole world, so many haven't even met one of us. And there's so much to do in life, learning about some tiny group's religious beliefs isn't likely to be high on anyone's list.....no big deal that you don't know.

It's incredibly annoying, though, to have some ignoramus constantly insist they know 'more and better' about the central focus of others' lives even AFTER those others have made the errors known REPEATEDLY.

This has NOTHING to do with any difference of opinion on how the I/P conflict might be resolved.

I'd like to point out your hypocrisy to you: you insist that others have no right to dispute that man's 'self-description' - but you constantly dispute ours. I don't know or care what your excuse is for that: I just want it to stop.

 

[amity1844]

They count by their sheer numbers.

surely Judaism as it existed before Zionism counts as "authentic." Reform or Conservative Judaism with an overlay of Zionist nationalist/secular justification? You say it is? On what grounds? I'm asking. I'm not answering. So explain it to me please.

To me it is directly related to I/P because if Rabbi Shapiro is right, Zionism is done. He claims it is not authentic Judaism. You haven't answered him.

 

[Indeependent]

Work it out with the orthodox. This is obviously a more fundamental problem and a greater challenge to Israel's legitimacy than I had realized.

Please see the Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro thread.

I was actually fascinated by this post.
You are stating that non-complicance with a nation's interest make the legitimacy of the nation questionable...
Do you apply the same standard to Islamic Nations?

 

[amity1844]

I'm not sure. I don't know much about that subject. It is on another forum.

I am asking about Israel/Palestine, and it has nothing to with that. Rabbi Shapiro uses the analogy of someone beating you up, tying you up in a closet, taking your credit cards and then saying "help me pay. We have bills." His point is that Israel has been riding on the legitimacy of Judaism, imputing the legitimacy of Judaism to itself, for over 100 years, and yet MANY Jews do not agree. This was the same message stated by the young man in the "freedom of speech, huh?" thread. Israel DOES NOT represent all Jews, yet its claims to legitimacy vis-à-vis the non-Jewish world are that it DOES.

How does Zionism claim to represent the Jewish people when it is not at all clear that the Jewish people per se have ever agreed to this? Why do non-Zionist Jews have to pay Zionism's bills?

and what will happen to Judaism as a religion if Israel succeeds in this forced assimilation?

 

[Indeependent]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMQ9C6vni0w

Did you count the numbers of extremist Jews in the video, no more than a thousand if you are lucky, and not one of them does a days work as it is beneath them

There are 10,00 people in that meeting in lower Manhattan, and that is just Manhattan and other boroughs. NYC in other words. Does not count Israel.

Forgive me if I used the term "orthodox" with a small "o" inappropriately. it was done in ignorance. i didn't want anyone to think I was talking about Greek/Russian Orthodoxy.

The point is that many different Orthodox Jewish groups are now united against doing military service in Israel. Do we (you) care whether a 2000+ year old way of life that is much more characteristically Jewish than Zionism could ever be comes to an END forever?

Every nation has its nationalists. No other nation has what the Jewish people have in the Torah scholars. Will Zionism be the end of Judaism?

Rabbi Shapiro says "we will make sure they leave us alone." I don't know what he has in mind, but the specter of Orthodox Jews leaving Israel en masse, or being imprisoned in greater numbers even than Palestinians, is not going to play well in Peoria.

(Reform and conservative don't really count do they? )

I can sort of see where you are coming from.
Here's the mistake...
There are tens of thousands of STUDENTS.
There are MAYBE less than a dozen Rabbis...worldwide.
These select few have maybe one or two people catering to their needs around the clock.
I'm talking GENIUS level...these are the people we want to study Torah all day long.
The rest can easily have a profession and study in whatever extra time they have on their hands.

You have never studied Talmud so you have no idea what it entails.
In fact, most Jews who study Talmud have no idea what it entails.
Try reading a few words from a Mishnah and spending MONTHS extracting a few dozen patterns of thought from these few words that have impacted the Jews for over 2 thousand years.

 

[Indeependent]

I'm not sure. I don't know much about that subject. It is on another forum.

I am asking about Israel/Palestine, and it has nothing to with that. Rabbi Shapiro uses the analogy of someone beating you up, tying you up in a closet, taking your credit cards and then saying "help me pay. We have bills." His point is that Israel has been riding on the legitimacy of Judaism, imputing the legitimacy of Judaism to itself, for over 100 years, and yet MANY Jews do not agree. This was the same message stated by the young man in the "freedom of speech, huh?" thread. Israel DOES NOT represent all Jews, yet its claims to legitimacy vis-à-vis the non-Jewish world are that it DOES.

How does Zionism claim to represent the Jewish people when it is not at all clear that the Jewish people per se have ever agreed to this? Why do non-Zionist Jews have to pay Zionism's bills?

and what will happen to Judaism as a religion if Israel succeeds in this forced assimilation?

His video is an example of Lashone Hah-rah (evil speech).
Any "Rabbi" who prostitutes himself via a public medium is no Rabbi.

 

[amity1844]

I can sort of see where you are coming from.
Here's the mistake...
There are tens of thousands of STUDENTS.
There are MAYBE less than a dozen Rabbis...worldwide.
These select few have maybe one or two people catering to their needs around the clock.
I'm talking GENIUS level...these are the people we want to study Torah all day long.
The rest can easily have a profession and study in whatever extra time they have on their hands.

You have never studied Talmud so you have no idea what it entails.
In fact, most Jews who study Talmud have no idea what it entails.
Try reading a few words from a Mishnah and spending MONTHS extracting a few dozen patterns of thought from these few words that have impacted the Jews for over 2 thousand years.

OK, obviously you didn't actually watch the video.

There are a few hundred rabbis and 10,000 people just in Foley Sq.

I used to know a bit more about this than you are assuming, but no longer unfortunately.

 

[Roudy]

Again, he does not - NOT! - speak for 'Orthodox' Judaism. He doesn't even speak for all Haredim (the "fundamentalist" contingent of Judaism).

Why would you fantasize that 'Reform and Conservative don't really count', anyway? Do you even have a clue how asinine and arrogant such a snide remark is?

I don't know that he is one of the representatives, or just a spokesman..

At any rate, these people THINK they are Orthodox Jews and they are a few hundred thousand strong worldwide.

The reason I am saying that Reform and Conservative don't count is
#1 they haven't asked for a military exemption anyway.
#2 they are not really preserving the Jewish religious heritage in the same sense that the Orthodox are. Conservative and Reform congregations have made major modifications to Judaism to basically make it easier to adhere to in the modern assimilated life. I guess the reasoning is that a little Judaism is better than no Judaism at all. That in itself is anathema to Orthodox. Judaism will never be reborn if it is in effect killed through conscription.

Conservative has made modifications? Ha ha ha ha!

So not only do you know nothing about history, you also have no idea of how Judaism is practiced. Hint: it's nothing like the Issssslam you converted to, that turned you into such brainwashed dumbass.

 

[Roudy]

I can sort of see where you are coming from.
Here's the mistake...
There are tens of thousands of STUDENTS.
There are MAYBE less than a dozen Rabbis...worldwide.
These select few have maybe one or two people catering to their needs around the clock.
I'm talking GENIUS level...these are the people we want to study Torah all day long.
The rest can easily have a profession and study in whatever extra time they have on their hands.

You have never studied Talmud so you have no idea what it entails.
In fact, most Jews who study Talmud have no idea what it entails.
Try reading a few words from a Mishnah and spending MONTHS extracting a few dozen patterns of thought from these few words that have impacted the Jews for over 2 thousand years.

OK, obviously you didn't actually watch the video.

There are a few hundred rabbis and 10,000 people just in Foley Sq.

I used to know a bit more about this than you are assuming, but no longer unfortunately.

Did anybody ever tell you that youtube videos, especially those coming from someone like you, DON'T COUNT? I doubt anybody in this forum bothers to watch your garbage.

True story.

 

[amity1844]

Nope, nobody ever told me that.
All these smart people with incredible credentials, well read and well spoken, and Roudy thinks he has just answered what they are saying....

youtube videos, especially those coming from someone like you, DON'T COUNT? I doubt anybody in this forum bothers to watch your garbage.

I think most people who join a forum discussion do so because they want to learn something. Seeing you unwilling/unable to deal with it underscores that there really isn't any answer from Zionism. What Rabbi Shapiro is saying can't be effectively denied.

 

[jillian]

I can sort of see where you are coming from.
Here's the mistake...
There are tens of thousands of STUDENTS.
There are MAYBE less than a dozen Rabbis...worldwide.
These select few have maybe one or two people catering to their needs around the clock.
I'm talking GENIUS level...these are the people we want to study Torah all day long.
The rest can easily have a profession and study in whatever extra time they have on their hands.

You have never studied Talmud so you have no idea what it entails.
In fact, most Jews who study Talmud have no idea what it entails.
Try reading a few words from a Mishnah and spending MONTHS extracting a few dozen patterns of thought from these few words that have impacted the Jews for over 2 thousand years.

OK, obviously you didn't actually watch the video.

There are a few hundred rabbis and 10,000 people just in Foley Sq.

I used to know a bit more about this than you are assuming, but no longer unfortunately.

Did anybody ever tell you that youtube videos, especially those coming from someone like you, DON'T COUNT? I doubt anybody in this forum bothers to watch your garbage.

True story.

I don't think "amity" is gainfully employed unless she's being paid by the terrorists.

 

[Lipush]

They count by their sheer numbers.

surely Judaism as it existed before Zionism counts as "authentic." Reform or Conservative Judaism with an overlay of Zionist nationalist/secular justification? You say it is? On what grounds? I'm asking. I'm not answering. So explain it to me please.

To me it is directly related to I/P because if Rabbi Shapiro is right, Zionism is done. He claims it is not authentic Judaism. You haven't answered him.

How can you say, hoe can anyone say, that Zionism is 'done'? on what ground you announce such a mistaken and decietful claim? based on which life experience or knowledge?

I don't know who Rabbi Shappiro is, honestly, because I don't follow the words of Anti-Zionist Rabbis much. You say their count by their numbers, but the support they get reduces by the minute.

Nowdays, Rabbis who oppose Zionism may voice themselves out, but even if they do not support Zionism per se, they support the Jewish people. The numbers of those you call "Anti-Zionists" is at the few, their importance slim to none.

Based on what you accept the claim that Zionism is not "authentic" Judaism? Zionism is the belief that Jews have the right, driven from the deep connection, over the land of Israel, based MAINLY on the Torah and the Bible.

Zionism was created the moment the All Mighty told Abraham "Lech Lecha". Go to the land I now show you. he left whatever he had behind, to go to Israel, which was the birth of Zionism. It was reborn when Moses took the Israelites back to Israel.

It is born every day the Jews make Aliyah, Baruch HaShem; It is born every day that an Israeli Jew does good for another. Tikkun Olam, Arvut Hadadit. Ahavat Israel.

But explaining this to someone who don't really know judaism is like trying to explain a color to a blind person.

Zionism is ANYTHING BUT dead. In this century it blooms beautifully!

 

[Lipush]

I can sort of see where you are coming from.
Here's the mistake...
There are tens of thousands of STUDENTS.
There are MAYBE less than a dozen Rabbis...worldwide.
These select few have maybe one or two people catering to their needs around the clock.
I'm talking GENIUS level...these are the people we want to study Torah all day long.
The rest can easily have a profession and study in whatever extra time they have on their hands.

You have never studied Talmud so you have no idea what it entails.
In fact, most Jews who study Talmud have no idea what it entails.
Try reading a few words from a Mishnah and spending MONTHS extracting a few dozen patterns of thought from these few words that have impacted the Jews for over 2 thousand years.

OK, obviously you didn't actually watch the video.

There are a few hundred rabbis and 10,000 people just in Foley Sq.

I used to know a bit more about this than you are assuming, but no longer unfortunately.

What do we care about the numbers? why you keep going back to that.

To each Rabbi saying what Shappiro says, 5 other National-Zionist Rabbis will say otherwise.

I believe them more. I see them as more devoted and comfortable.

Perhaps besides Rabbi Lau.

 

[amity1844]

I think your perception that their support diminishes by the minute reflects the polarization among Zionists on this issue.

What we see is Zionism developing as an almost entirely secular political movement, that is now even turning on Judaism itself. Obviously Zionism is using Judaism exactly the way Rabbi Shapiro identifies. Zionism justifies itself as a movement of the Jewish people, but it sounds like that claim is very likely illegitimate because when it comes down to it, they oppose Judaism.

"Someone beats you, ties you up in a closet, and takes your identity, calls themselves whatever your name is. They take your credit cards and rack up bills. Then they come to you out of the closet and says "At least you've got to help me pay. We have bills."

No one here seems to be understanding what he is saying about Torah study, or coming up with an answer. Zionism is not their problem... they never bought into it. I hope these poor people can at least find refuge, because it sounds like they are going to wind up as refugees, too.

 

[Lipush]

I think your perception that their support diminishes by the minute reflects the polarization among Zionists on this issue.

Is that so?

I believe it comes from the fact that I happen to actually know what I'm talking about