Zionism: The State of Israel is a rebellion against God.

[surada]

'Secular' and 'religious' are not Jewish terms.

Hertzl was not religious at all.

Yes Mr Desantis, the Palestinians are indigenous

Some will find this disturbing, but they have learned a lot from DNA and archaeology. Plus, they have tablets from the Ugarit in Ras Shamra. So they are brothers. https://www.juancole.com/2023/05/palestinians-indigenous-palestinian.html What we now call Palestinians are for the most part...

www.usmessageboard.com

 

[rylah]

Hertzl was a secular person. His reasons for a Jewish state were practical.

The Palestinians and Zionism: 1897-1948 | Middle East Policy Council

mepc.org

Then it was for practical reasons he envisioned the 3rd Temple in Jerusalem.

How is that different from the practical aspects of running a state?

 

[rylah]

Hertzl was not religious at all.

If you ever read Torah, neither is Mosheh Rabbenu,

Does that somehow diminish their role in Jewish history?

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

The return to the Holy Land and/or a jewish state created not by the jewish Messiah but by atheists and agnostics like Herzl and Gurion is a blaphemy in Judaism. This fact was not even open for debate among Jews until the Zionist movement got going.

Today, the state of Israel tries and sweep this truth under the carpet but it is what it is.

God PROMISED it, and it happened. It is not up to you to dictate how God accomplished His Will.

Get over it

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

I think more and more that Palestine was THE WRONG destination , do you agree with me ?

The Jews are the indigenous people of the Land of Israel

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Zionism: The State of Israel is a rebellion against God.
SUBTOPIC: Location of the Jewish State
※→ Litwin, CarlinAnnArbor, et al,
This is simply wrong on so many different levels.
.

I think more and more that Palestine was THE WRONG destination , do you agree with me ?

The Jews are the indigenous people of the Land of Israel

(COMMENT)

The two greatest controversies are:

◈ No one can a set determination and policy made a century ago and do an about-face. The Principal Allied Powers (Noblesse Oblige) agreed (San Remo Resolution of 1920) that there was a "historical connection" between the "Jewish people with Palestine." The Allied Powers concluded that "within such boundaries as may be fixed," And acting "on behalf of the League of Nations," the Allied Powers set about the "establishment of the Jewish national home." It is a Fait Accompli and we are bound to work with the outcome we have today. There is no reasonable way to call foul and enact an instant replay. Right or Wrong, that bed is made. The Jewish people are in place. And they have made themselves the most advanced nation in the region; despite the fact they were surrounded by hostiles.​

​

◈ The so-called Arab Palestinians made their decision, all along the timeline that they would not compromise. The Mandatory made a concerted effort to establish "self-government in Palestine" under several options; all of which were rejected by the Arab Higher Committee. In the end (ie 1947) the British concluded that further efforts by them would be futile. Essentially, the Mandatory left the Mandate Territory to work it out for themselves. --- ​

And so there it is. The fighting has been intermittent ever since. Whether the question of the Allied Powers' decision at San Remo was right or wrong is a question without a solution. It is impossible to alter. We cannot roll back the clock. We have to wait for the Arab Palestinians politically, economically, and culturally mature to the point that they have a reversal in policy.

Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances, and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus. ​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[José]

God PROMISED it, and it happened. It is not up to
you to dictate how God accomplished His Will.

Get over it

You're barking up the wrong tree, Carl.

Direct your complaints to israeli historian Tom Segev who wrote:

To the traditional Jewish population of Palestine,
the Zionist ideal of secular redemption was sacrilegious.

​

Segev is talking about the very same Jews whose memories the Zionists abuse and disrespect everytime they use one of their favorite arguments:

There has always been a jewish presence in Palestine.​

There's nothing more vile, more despicable than putting words in the mouth of dead people (as if they were Zionists) who are no longer here to defend themselves.

Shame on every Zionist who has ever used this argument (virtually all).

 

[José]

As an evangelical christian who supports Israel on religious grounds, you Carl as well as JGalt and Esdraelon have every right to advocate the zionist cause but the use of the jewish community in Palestine before 1880 who were virulently anti-zionist, to "legitimize" the same ideology they considered blasphemous and against which they fought tooth and nail is disrespect, lack of character and moral depravation.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

As an evangelical christian who supports Israel on religious grounds, you Carl as well as JGalt and Esdraelon have every right to advocate the zionist cause but the use of the jewish community in Palestine before 1880 who were virulently anti-zionist, to "legitimize" the same ideology they considered blasphemous and against which they fought tooth and nail is disrespect, lack of character and moral depravation.

It is irrelevant whether or not some wrong thinking Jews consider the nation of Israel "blasphemous". They will also tell you calling Jesus the Son of God is blasphemous. So there's that

It's here JUST AS GOD SAID IT WOULD BE.

Prophecy marches on.

 

[surada]

At the time he was still formulating his ideas about Zionism and confided to his diary: "We shall try to spirit the penniless population [Palestinians] across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."4 Even if this was perhaps the fanciful imagining of a rather romantic personality, as some sympathizers of Herzl contend, its essential imperative was inescapable. This was recognized by most early Zionists, as evidenced by the fact that the theme of expulsion consistently ran through Zionist thought from the very beginning.5

For instance, as early as 1905, Israel Zangwill, an organizer of Zionism in Britain and one of Zionism's top propagandists, who had coined the slogan "a land without a people for a people without a land," acknowledged in a speech in Manchester that Palestine was not a land without people. In fact, it was filled with Arabs: "[We] must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the [Arab] tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population, mostly Mohammedan and accustomed for centuries to despise us."6 This comment came at a time when there were around 645,000 Muslims and Christians in Palestine and only 55,000 Jews, mainly non-Zionists or anti-Zionists in the Orthodox neighborhoods of Jerusalem and other cities.7

David Ben-Gurion, the man who along with Herzl and Chaim Weizmann was one of the progenitors of Israel, explicitly acknowledged the linkage between Zionism and expulsion: "Zionism is a transfer of the Jews. Regarding the transfer of the Arabs this is much easier than any other transfer."8 Or, as Israeli scholar Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi put it: "While the basic problem confronting Diaspora Jews was to survive as a minority, the basic problem of Zionism in Palestine was to dispossess the natives and become a majority."9

Much attention has been paid to how the early Zionists secured land in Palestine, but relatively little study has focused on the equally essential effort by Zionists to delegitimize and replace the Palestinian majority.10 Without Jewish control, the Zionists concluded they would be no better off than in Europe, where Zionism arose specifically as a way to escape antisemitism, pogroms, the ghetto and minority status.

As former defense minister Ariel Sharon, a leading spokesman of Zionism's right wing, has commented: "Our forefathers did not come here in order to build a democracy but to build a Jewish state."11 A similar view was recently expressed by Labor leader and Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin: "I don't believe that for 2,000 years Jews dreamed and prayed about the return to Zion to create a binational state."12 Though the terms are softer, the meaning is the same.

Thus from the very beginning of Zionism's dream of creating a Jewish state, there were two complementary and equally imperative objectives: gain land and replace the majority population, either by denying them their rights, out-populating them or displacing them by one method or another. Despite soothing promises by Herzl and other Zionists that Jews and Palestinians would live happily side by side, there was, indeed, no other way to create Zionism's envisioned Jewish state in Palestine.

The early Zionists pursued several strategies to achieve their goal. One was Jewish immigration. In their early enthusiasm, many Zionists and their supporters genuinely believed that large-scale Jewish immigration would soon solve the "Palestinian problem" by giving Jews a majority. Another rested on the belief that enough Palestinian farmers and labors, denied work, would accomplish the same thing by migrating out of Palestine. A third strategy, less well-known because it was conducted largely in the corridors of power in Constantinople, Berlin, London and Washington, was to gain the sponsorship of a world power, thereby affording legitimacy to Jewish claims as a counterbalance to the rights of the Palestinian majority.

The Zionists pursued all of these strategies simultaneously with lesser and greater success. But in the end it was only forced expulsion that secured their state.

The roots of Zionism reached deep into the psyche of Jewish suffering. But the major immediate cause for its emergence at the end of the nineteenth century was the massive waves of migration set off by pogroms in Russia in 1881 and the spread of blatant antisemitism throughout Eastern Europe in the waning decades of the nineteenth century and into the twentieth century. Individuals, families and even whole communities fled the anti-Semitic terror. Up to the outbreak of World War I in 1914, about 2.5 million Jews had left Russia and other European countries, the vast majority of them seeking new homes in the West, particularly in the United States, Canada, South America and Australia. Less than 1 percent of them moved to Palestine and remained there.13

 

[irosie91]

At the time he was still formulating his ideas about Zionism and confided to his diary: "We shall try to spirit the penniless population [Palestinians] across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."4 Even if this was perhaps the fanciful imagining of a rather romantic personality, as some sympathizers of Herzl contend, its essential imperative was inescapable. This was recognized by most early Zionists, as evidenced by the fact that the theme of expulsion consistently ran through Zionist thought from the very beginning.5

For instance, as early as 1905, Israel Zangwill, an organizer of Zionism in Britain and one of Zionism's top propagandists, who had coined the slogan "a land without a people for a people without a land," acknowledged in a speech in Manchester that Palestine was not a land without people. In fact, it was filled with Arabs: "[We] must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the [Arab] tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population, mostly Mohammedan and accustomed for centuries to despise us."6 This comment came at a time when there were around 645,000 Muslims and Christians in Palestine and only 55,000 Jews, mainly non-Zionists or anti-Zionists in the Orthodox neighborhoods of Jerusalem and other cities.7

David Ben-Gurion, the man who along with Herzl and Chaim Weizmann was one of the progenitors of Israel, explicitly acknowledged the linkage between Zionism and expulsion: "Zionism is a transfer of the Jews. Regarding the transfer of the Arabs this is much easier than any other transfer."8 Or, as Israeli scholar Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi put it: "While the basic problem confronting Diaspora Jews was to survive as a minority, the basic problem of Zionism in Palestine was to dispossess the natives and become a majority."9

Much attention has been paid to how the early Zionists secured land in Palestine, but relatively little study has focused on the equally essential effort by Zionists to delegitimize and replace the Palestinian majority.10 Without Jewish control, the Zionists concluded they would be no better off than in Europe, where Zionism arose specifically as a way to escape antisemitism, pogroms, the ghetto and minority status.

As former defense minister Ariel Sharon, a leading spokesman of Zionism's right wing, has commented: "Our forefathers did not come here in order to build a democracy but to build a Jewish state."11 A similar view was recently expressed by Labor leader and Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin: "I don't believe that for 2,000 years Jews dreamed and prayed about the return to Zion to create a binational state."12 Though the terms are softer, the meaning is the same.

Thus from the very beginning of Zionism's dream of creating a Jewish state, there were two complementary and equally imperative objectives: gain land and replace the majority population, either by denying them their rights, out-populating them or displacing them by one method or another. Despite soothing promises by Herzl and other Zionists that Jews and Palestinians would live happily side by side, there was, indeed, no other way to create Zionism's envisioned Jewish state in Palestine.

The early Zionists pursued several strategies to achieve their goal. One was Jewish immigration. In their early enthusiasm, many Zionists and their supporters genuinely believed that large-scale Jewish immigration would soon solve the "Palestinian problem" by giving Jews a majority. Another rested on the belief that enough Palestinian farmers and labors, denied work, would accomplish the same thing by migrating out of Palestine. A third strategy, less well-known because it was conducted largely in the corridors of power in Constantinople, Berlin, London and Washington, was to gain the sponsorship of a world power, thereby affording legitimacy to Jewish claims as a counterbalance to the rights of the Palestinian majority.

The Zionists pursued all of these strategies simultaneously with lesser and greater success. But in the end it was only forced expulsion that secured their state.

The roots of Zionism reached deep into the psyche of Jewish suffering. But the major immediate cause for its emergence at the end of the nineteenth century was the massive waves of migration set off by pogroms in Russia in 1881 and the spread of blatant antisemitism throughout Eastern Europe in the waning decades of the nineteenth century and into the twentieth century. Individuals, families and even whole communities fled the anti-Semitic terror. Up to the outbreak of World War I in 1914, about 2.5 million Jews had left Russia and other European countries, the vast majority of them seeking new homes in the West, particularly in the United States, Canada, South America and Australia. Less than 1 percent of them moved to Palestine and remained there.13

right SO? the ZIONIST LEADERS addressed the issue of creating a state
on PURCHASED LAND----the issue was ----how to displace the
SQUATTERS. Many countries have had to face the issue of
SQUATTERS. Many Squatters have gotten accustomed to being
Squatters-----The US is facing this problem today---but we do not call
it "SQUATTING" in the century 2000. We call it HOMELESSNESS.
Politically, in the PALESTINE MANDATE----arab nationalists rallied their
constituency ---to wit the LANDLESS arabs, by citing islamic law---which
denies jews the right to OWN "muslim land"-----and purchase thereof to
be rendered VOID as per the LAW OF ALLAH. So who was doing the
ethnic cleansing?. A very large percentage of jews escaping the SHARIAH
SHIT HOLES which denied them basic rights----migrated to Israel--many
long before 1948. I am convince that the War of 1948 would not have
been won without the DESPERATE EFFORTS of the escapees from
SHARIAH SHIT. A full 50% of Jews in Israel today carry a family legacy
of islamic oppression.
The city of Sderot was chock full of escapees from SHARIAH SHIT----that
lovely city is in total ruin and many of its children lie dead on the
ISLAMO NAZI LADIE'S DANCE FLOOR

 

[rylah]

God PROMISED it, and it happened. It is not up to
you to dictate how God accomplished His Will.

Get over it

You're barking up the wrong tree, Carl.

Direct your complaints to israeli historian Tom Segev who wrote:

To the traditional Jewish population of Palestine,
the Zionist ideal of secular redemption was sacrilegious.

​

Segev is talking about the very same Jews whose memories the Zionists abuse and disrespect everytime they use one of their favorite arguments:

There has always been a jewish presence in Palestine.​

There's nothing more vile, more despicable than putting words in the mouth of dead people (as if they were Zionists) who are no longer here to defend themselves.

Shame on every Zionist who has ever used this argument (virtually all).

Thank G-d,

"sacrilegious" to exile mentality.

Moses wasn't accepted for the job, they said...

because he was too secular, and didn't speak Yiddish Oy!

 

[GMCGeneral]

Fascinating group of Orthodox Jews who oppose Zionism calling for a "peaceful dismantling" of the State of Israel. They believe that Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of the Jewish Messiah and that the state of Israel is a rebellion against God.

NKUSA - Guardians of the City - Hasidim - The State of Israel a rebellion against God: These people are from the Middle East.

Zionism: "From 1897 to 1948, the primary goal of the Zionist Movement was to establish the basis for a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and thereafter to consolidate it."

Neturei Karta - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

New York streets descend into chaos during pro-Palestinian rally

Protesters were arrested by NYPD officers at a demonstration in Brooklyn on Saturday.

www.newsweek.com

I remember ages ago being fascinated by 'Jews For Jesus" and more recently the End Times Christians who demand support for Israel because they believe it will bring about the end of the world. Myself, I've never been anti-Israel. As a matter of fact I was long a member of the club that is "Israel, right or wrong" that is until Israel passed the point of facing an existential threat.

Israel exists. It has a right to defend itself. Also, not all Jews support Zionism - homeland in the ME.


View attachment 846944

And each and every one of them are wrong, as Messiah has already been on this Earth in His first advent.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

And each and every one of them are wrong, as Messiah has already been on this Earth in His first advent.

We live in the 21st century. Give it up.

Stop supporting killing people in the name of centuries old religious texts.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Thank G-d,

"sacrilegious" to exile mentality.

Moses wasn't accepted for the job, they said...

because he was too secular, and didn't speak Yiddish Oy!

 

[GMCGeneral]

We live in the 21st century. Give it up.

Stop supporting killing people in the name of centuries old religious texts.

me? I have heaven secured and am looking towards the Millennial reign of King Yeshua. You? Look forward to the inferno unless you repent.

 

[USAF 2023]

The existence of the Jewish state will bring about the end of civilization, as we know it.

Whenever I ask Jews who feel this way how they can be assured equal rights or access to their Holy Sites there is no response

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Fascinating group of Orthodox Jews who oppose Zionism calling for a "peaceful dismantling" of the State of Israel. They believe that Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of the Jewish Messiah and that the state of Israel is a rebellion against God.

NKUSA - Guardians of the City - Hasidim - The State of Israel a rebellion against God: These people are from the Middle East.

Zionism: "From 1897 to 1948, the primary goal of the Zionist Movement was to establish the basis for a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and thereafter to consolidate it."

Neturei Karta - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

New York streets descend into chaos during pro-Palestinian rally

Protesters were arrested by NYPD officers at a demonstration in Brooklyn on Saturday.

www.newsweek.com

I remember ages ago being fascinated by 'Jews For Jesus" and more recently the End Times Christians who demand support for Israel because they believe it will bring about the end of the world. Myself, I've never been anti-Israel. As a matter of fact I was long a member of the club that is "Israel, right or wrong" that is until Israel passed the point of facing an existential threat.

Israel exists. It has a right to defend itself. Also, not all Jews support Zionism - homeland in the ME.


View attachment 846944

bumped?

I forgot all about this one