Origins of Palestinians and Jews in Palestine/Israel

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, Coyote, et al,

And imbedded here, are a couple of the arguments the Palestinians use.

I see "selfish" intent in those who seek to disenfranchise a people by insisting they are "invaders" and by implication - that they have no rights to the region even though they have been there for centuries.

The indigenous people of Palestine were not just the Jews. They included Muslims and Christians who descended from people that predated the arrival of Islam. Yet people keep insisting that they are "squatters", "invaders". They are as indigenous as the Jews. That means they have rights there.

(COMMENT)

The original intent by the Allied Powers invested with the rights and title surrendered by the Ottoman and Turks, was that Jewish Immigrants and the Arab inhabitants would somehow live together. The Allied Powers in 1916 thru 1920 did not grasp the Incompatibility of temperament (“not able to live in harmonious or agreeable combination") that would reveal itself and demonstrate that the cultures are diametrically opposed (characterized by opposite extremes) and hardily resistant to assimilation. The Mandatory drove this point home twice when the British Foreign Secretary in a report (18th February 1947) to the House of Commons that:

“His Majesty’s Government have …been faced with an irreconcilable conflict of principles. There are in Palestine about 1,200,000 Arabs and 600,000 Jews. For the Jews the essential point of principle is the creation of sovereign Jewish State. For the Arabs, the essential point of principle is to resist to the last the establishment of Jewish sovereignty in any part of Palestine.

"We shall explain that the Mandate has proved to be unworkable in practice, and that the obligations undertaken to the two communities in Palestine have been shown to be irreconcilable."​

You must be careful to understand the twist behind the Arab-Israeli Conflict. The Arab Palestinians want to apply law and rights that did not exist in the period. Remember. all the way up to May 1945, the deportation of Jews from Nazi-occupied territories all across Europe --- transporting Jews to the extermination camps in Poland begins. There were no Human Rights laws, or protocols of self-determination.

Coyote, et al,

The question is not about numbers. It is not about who is indigenous.

Anyone can look at the number and see that there were more Arabs than Jews. But that is not the question at all.

The question is bigger than the selfish wants of the utilitarian Arabs in the territory. It is about the safety and preservation of an entire culture. And the great thinkers and leaders of that time understood that.

Arguments against setting the Jews in an area from which they cannot defend themselves are perhaps more intuitive: much of the populations, such as those of the WWII Europe where under threat from human social orders that could not be foreseen in 1916. But 1947, there was more to consider than just the Arabs of Palestine, because the world leaders saw that, absent an adequate defense, the Arab would eventually turn on the Jews, just as the Europeans did.

No, sheer numbers, land ownership, and longevity are not the simplified moral logic that was used in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people. It was much bigger than that.

OK, but none of that had anything to do with the creation of Israel.

(COMMENT)

I has everything to do with the immigration, naturalization, and the establishment of sovereignty. It is the original --- "why" --- that the Allied Powers (early on in the century) even entertained the idea --- and --- gave serious consideration to the establishment of theJewish National Home. And, it became even almost a categorical imperative (the necessity to bring into existence an obligation on the part of the Allied Powers to carry out the relevant action) after WWII and the assessment of the European countries that accepted Anti-Jewish policies imposed upon NAZI occupied Denmark, Norway, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, and in other European countries under NAZI domination.

There was no reason to expect that any European Leadership could be trusted in the future to come to the aid of the Jewish People. A solution had to be found in which the Jewish People had a safe haven that they could defend against anti-Jewish activities under the color of law.

"The MS St. Louis was a German ocean liner most notable for a single voyage in 1939, in which her captain, Gustav Schröder, tried to find homes for 908 Jewish refugees from Germany, after they were denied entry to Cuba and the United States, until finally accepted in various European countries, which were later engulfed in World War II. Historians have estimated that, after their return to Europe, approximately a quarter of the ship's passengers died in death camps." From: Wikipedia
​

The existence of the State of Israel is a culmination of a series of events that gradually build the conditions for the Declarations of Independence. But the reasons behind the General Assemble of 1947 adopted the "Steps Preparatory to Independence" are numerous and varied. And the fact that the leadership of the Arab League so blatantly initiated a multinational attack on Israel in 1948 to circumvent the intentions of the General Assembly, was a very common occurrence in the history of Jewish People; not two years before, subjected to NAZI extermination camps, concentration camps, and forced labor camps.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Coyote]

Nearly all Palestinians were either Muslim or Christian before the European Jews began colonizing the land.

Cant see the tags saying I am a muslim on any of those people, so how do you know what denomination they are ?

According to the Catholic church the majority of inhabitants were Jews, are you calling your church liars now ?

None of the census' from the Ottomans or the Mandate support that claim Phoenal.

From the Catholic church


CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Jerusalem After 1291
"...Present condition of the City: (1907 edition)

Jerusalem (El Quds) is the capital of a sanjak and the seat of a mutasarrif directly dependent on the Sublime Porte. In the administration of the sanjak the mutasarrif is assisted by a council called majlis ida ra; the city has a municipal government (majlis baladiye) presided over by a mayor. The total population is estimated at 66,000. The Turkish census of 1905, which counts only Ottoman subjects, gives these figures:
Jews, 45,000; Moslems, 8,000; Orthodox Christians, 6000; Latins, 2500; Armenians, 950; Protestants, 800; Melkites, 250; Copts, 150; Abyssinians, 100; Jacobites, 100; Catholic Syrians, 50. During the Nineteenth century large suburbs to the north and east have grown up, chiefly for the use of the Jewish colony. These suburbs contain nearly Half the present population...""

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Growth of Jerusalem 1838-Present

....... Jews Muslims Christians Total
1838 6,000 5,000 3,000 14,000
1844 7,120 5,760 3,390 16,270 ..... ..The First Official Ottoman Census
1876 12,000 7,560 5,470 25,030 .... .....Second """"""""""
1905 40,000 8,000 10,900 58,900 ....... Third/last, detailed in CathEncyc above
1948 99,320 36,680 31,300 167,300
1990 353,200 124,200 14,000 491,400
1992 385,000 150,000 15,000 550,000

http://www.testimony-magazine.org/jerusalem/bring.htm



Want to try again as this is the results for the Sanjak of Jerusalem, which takes in most of what is now Israel and Jordan

Demographic history of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A 2015 entry by an Islamic, want to put two and two together ?

And why should we trust a Catholic entry?

 

[Coyote]

Wrong. There were many Palestinian Muslims who had lived there as long as the indiginous Jews.

So you are now saying that islam was invented 2700 years before mo'mad was born. Why haven't we seen this mentioned in the history books, have we been lied to by our leaders all these years and really we should be worshipping allah.

Indigenous Jews have lived there for 4,500 years, Palestinian muslims for 22 years then for 140 years.

You seem to be missing big chunks of information Phoenal. For example - when Islam appeared, Muslims didn't just drop from the sky like manna from heaven. They didn't appear out nowhere fully formed.

The people that are Muslim today are descendents of peoples who lived there and were previously Christian, Jewish, and other religions that existed there. Read the quotes I posted. They are descendents of the indiginous peoples mixed with other people who migrated over time (just like the Jews).

So I suggest you ditch that bit of nonsense and look at some history books.

Your words

Wrong. There were many Palestinian Muslims who had lived there as long as the indiginous Jews.



The indigenous Jews have lived there for 4,500 years, islam and the muslims were not invented until 2700 years later so could not have lived there. They are arabs that came from the south, in fact the Arabian peninsular, they are not Jews and not indigenous to the area. It is you that needs to read proper history books and not Islamic nonsense and propaganda.

Phoenal - THEY ARE THE SAME PEOPLE. You're implying that the only indiginous people are the people we now call Jews and that simply isn't true. NONE of my sources were "Islamic" - they were main stream historical sources. While some Arabs migrated - many indiginous people converted. When Christianity was the dominant religion - they converted. When Islam was the dominant religion - many converted.

This is supported by a number of historical sources. Can you support your claim by any reputable historical sources?

Don't confuse the carrier of the information with the author of the information and claim that the carrier is the source. Your sources were written by muslims making them Islamic propaganda.

When islam invaded they practised the commands in the koran and forced people to convert, many faked conversion and kept their original religion in secret. The Roman church was the same and forced conversion on people, and they faked their conversion. Well documented by many prominent Judaic scholars of the time who faked conversion so they could write it all down. The most well known accounts where those of Maimonides a Jewish scholar who pretended to be a muslim.

Like these sources? (none of whom are Muslim):

Origins of Palestinians and Jews in Palestine/Israel | Page 4 | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

 

[Coyote]

P F Tinmore, Coyote, et al,

And imbedded here, are a couple of the arguments the Palestinians use.

I see "selfish" intent in those who seek to disenfranchise a people by insisting they are "invaders" and by implication - that they have no rights to the region even though they have been there for centuries.

The indigenous people of Palestine were not just the Jews. They included Muslims and Christians who descended from people that predated the arrival of Islam. Yet people keep insisting that they are "squatters", "invaders". They are as indigenous as the Jews. That means they have rights there.

(COMMENT)

The original intent by the Allied Powers invested with the rights and title surrendered by the Ottoman and Turks, was that Jewish Immigrants and the Arab inhabitants would somehow live together. The Allied Powers in 1916 thru 1920 did not grasp the Incompatibility of temperament (“not able to live in harmonious or agreeable combination") that would reveal itself and demonstrate that the cultures are diametrically opposed (characterized by opposite extremes) and hardily resistant to assimilation. The Mandatory drove this point home twice when the British Foreign Secretary in a report (18th February 1947) to the House of Commons that:

“His Majesty’s Government have …been faced with an irreconcilable conflict of principles. There are in Palestine about 1,200,000 Arabs and 600,000 Jews. For the Jews the essential point of principle is the creation of sovereign Jewish State. For the Arabs, the essential point of principle is to resist to the last the establishment of Jewish sovereignty in any part of Palestine.

"We shall explain that the Mandate has proved to be unworkable in practice, and that the obligations undertaken to the two communities in Palestine have been shown to be irreconcilable."​

You must be careful to understand the twist behind the Arab-Israeli Conflict. The Arab Palestinians want to apply law and rights that did not exist in the period. Remember. all the way up to May 1945, the deportation of Jews from Nazi-occupied territories all across Europe --- transporting Jews to the extermination camps in Poland begins. There were no Human Rights laws, or protocols of self-determination.

Coyote, et al,

The question is not about numbers. It is not about who is indigenous.

Anyone can look at the number and see that there were more Arabs than Jews. But that is not the question at all.

The question is bigger than the selfish wants of the utilitarian Arabs in the territory. It is about the safety and preservation of an entire culture. And the great thinkers and leaders of that time understood that.

Arguments against setting the Jews in an area from which they cannot defend themselves are perhaps more intuitive: much of the populations, such as those of the WWII Europe where under threat from human social orders that could not be foreseen in 1916. But 1947, there was more to consider than just the Arabs of Palestine, because the world leaders saw that, absent an adequate defense, the Arab would eventually turn on the Jews, just as the Europeans did.

No, sheer numbers, land ownership, and longevity are not the simplified moral logic that was used in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people. It was much bigger than that.

OK, but none of that had anything to do with the creation of Israel.

(COMMENT)

I has everything to do with the immigration, naturalization, and the establishment of sovereignty. It is the original --- "why" --- that the Allied Powers (early on in the century) even entertained the idea --- and --- gave serious consideration to the establishment of theJewish National Home. And, it became even almost a categorical imperative (the necessity to bring into existence an obligation on the part of the Allied Powers to carry out the relevant action) after WWII and the assessment of the European countries that accepted Anti-Jewish policies imposed upon NAZI occupied Denmark, Norway, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, and in other European countries under NAZI domination.

There was no reason to expect that any European Leadership could be trusted in the future to come to the aid of the Jewish People. A solution had to be found in which the Jewish People had a safe haven that they could defend against anti-Jewish activities under the color of law.

"The MS St. Louis was a German ocean liner most notable for a single voyage in 1939, in which her captain, Gustav Schröder, tried to find homes for 908 Jewish refugees from Germany, after they were denied entry to Cuba and the United States, until finally accepted in various European countries, which were later engulfed in World War II. Historians have estimated that, after their return to Europe, approximately a quarter of the ship's passengers died in death camps." From: Wikipedia
​

The existence of the State of Israel is a culmination of a series of events that gradually build the conditions for the Declarations of Independence. But the reasons behind the General Assemble of 1947 adopted the "Steps Preparatory to Independence" are numerous and varied. And the fact that the leadership of the Arab League so blatantly initiated a multinational attack on Israel in 1948 to circumvent the intentions of the General Assembly, was a very common occurrence in the history of Jewish People; not two years before, subjected to NAZI extermination camps, concentration camps, and forced labor camps.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco, I think we are arguing two completely different things.

Are or are not the Palestinians of today descendents of a mix of indiginous peoples who converted to Christianity and Islam when those religions dominated the territory, and new migrants from surrounding areas? That is what people are trying to deny - the claim that the only real Palestinians were Jews is false.

Are not the Jews in today's Israel a combination of the descendents of a mix of indiginous peoples who retained their faith and immigrants from around the world who maintained their faith in the diaspora but also had to marry outside of their ethnic group in order to survive the diaspora as a people?

And Rocco - what is the purpose in claiming that Muslim Palestinians are not indiginous? Is it the same purpose as claiming that Jews are not indiginous? An effort to disenfranchise the legitimate rights of a native people?

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

Are you absolutely sure that: "Covenant of the League of Nations reserved rights to self-determination, independence and statehood to the native inhabitants."

The Covenant of the League of Nations reserved rights to self-determination, independence and statehood to the native inhabitants of the former territories of the defeated nations. The Jews were in Europe. The handful of Jews that were native inhabitants numbered in the hundreds in Jeruslam, they were Arabs in everything but religion. The establishment of a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine was a colonial land grab, no different than Cecil B. Rhode's charter to colonize what became Rhodesia. Don't try to glorify a disgusting piece of colonial evil.

(COMMENT)

The Arabs of Palestine were never a party to the Covenant.

The Covenant never mentions "self-determination (not once, let alone a right). The Covenant never promises the right of "independence" to any territory, country, nation or people. What Article 10, the only article to speak to "independence" (Not Article 22) said:

ARTICLE 10.
The Members of the League undertake to respect and preserve as against external aggression the territorial integrity and existing political independence of all Members of the League. In case of any such aggression or in case of any threat or danger of such aggression the Council shall advise upon the means by which this obligation shall be fulfilled.

It speaks only to members.

IN FACT: The Covenant only never addresses self-determination, independence or statehood. The covenant mentions "where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized." While Trans-Jordan (as an example) was such a place, there is no mention of the remainder of the territory underMandate.

Article 11: "the friendly right of each Member of the League to bring to the attention of the Assembly or of the Council any circumstance whatever affecting international relations which threatens to disturb international peace"

Article 15: " the Members of the League reserve to themselves the right to take such action as they shall consider necessary for the maintenance of right and justice."
​

You and several other keep mentioning "Colonialism" of this that or the other country. I just want to ask, where is it that outlaws colonialism? You do know that Resolution 1514(XV), adopted by the General Assembly 14 December 1960, Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples, is NOT a law; and it does not direct anything. It gives no people independence. And it doesn't apply to Israel as Israel came into existence in 1948; well before Resolution 1514(XV) was adopted.

​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Coyote]

Who are the "Palestinians"?

An article by an anthropologist

http://archive.thisweekinpalestine.com/details.php?id=2208&ed=144&edid=144These

Throughout history a great diversity of peoples has moved into Palestine as their homeland: Jebusites, Canaanites, Philistines from Crete, Anatolian and Lydian Greeks, Hebrews, Amorites, Edomites, Nabateans, Arameans, Romans, Arabs, and European crusaders, to name a few. Each of them appropriated different regions that overlapped in time and competed for sovereignty and land. Others, such as Ancient Egyptians, Hittites, Persians, Babylonians, and Mongols, were historical “events” whose successive occupations were as ravaging as the effects of major earthquakes.

The Philistines fade into oblivion after the fifth century BC. The Nabateans survived through Roman Palestine. Herodia, the mother of Salome, was Nabatean. Like shooting stars, the various cultures shine for a brief moment before they fade out of official historical and cultural records of Palestine. The people, however, survive. In their customs and manners, fossils of these ancient civilizations survived until modernity - albeit modernity camouflaged under the veneer of Islam and Arabic culture.​

 

[RoccoR]

And Rocco -

• What is the purpose in claiming that Muslim Palestinians are not indiginous?
• Is it the same purpose as claiming that Jews are not indiginous?
* An effort to disenfranchise the legitimate rights of a native people?
​

(COMMENT)

• What is the purpose in claiming that Muslim Palestinians are not indigenous?

• A: The Palestinians that were the original inhabitants of the State of Israel, were indigenous.
• A: The purpose for claiming otherwise has no real value.
• A: Purpose unknown.

*** Are the CERI registered Palestinians in the Refugee Camps indigenous?
X: A very small number. Maybe less that 20,000. When the UNRWA began operations in 1950, it was responding to the needs of about 750,000 Palestine refugees. Today, some 5 million Palestine refugees are eligible for UNRWA services.​

• Is it the same purpose as claiming that Jews are not indigenous?

• A: Unknown (I honestly don't know.) I don't exactly know what triggered the discussion. The UN Explanation of "Indigenous Peoples" and "Indigenous Voices" are explained in the UN FACT SHEET.)
• A: It should be noted the the FACT SHEET (in part) says: "Considering the diversity of indigenous peoples, an official definition of “indigenous” has not been adopted by any UN-system body."

X: Considering the system used by the UN, the Israelis born in Israel could be indigenous. According to the UN the most fruitful approach is to identify, rather than define indigenous peoples. This is based on the fundamental criterion of self-identification as underlined in a number of human rights documents.​

• An effort to disenfranchise the legitimate rights of a native people?

• A: Yes, this is a perception of some. The question revolves around the "rights" the culture, and the timeframe. Clearly, during the reign of the Great Empires, individual and collective rights (people and peoples) were those rights granted by the sovereign or representative council. The rights of the people in the time of the Prussian Empire and the rights of the people in the Kingdom of the Hejaz were vastly different.
• A: It has only been since 1976, that the following individual rights were made international law:

• International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
• International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights

While some of these questions are very good questions, they have yet to have a universally applied solution. That is why you have to determine a common vernacular for a given place on the timeline and the sovereignty to which it is subjected.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Phoenall]

Cant see the tags saying I am a muslim on any of those people, so how do you know what denomination they are ?

According to the Catholic church the majority of inhabitants were Jews, are you calling your church liars now ?

None of the census' from the Ottomans or the Mandate support that claim Phoenal.

From the Catholic church


CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Jerusalem After 1291
"...Present condition of the City: (1907 edition)

Jerusalem (El Quds) is the capital of a sanjak and the seat of a mutasarrif directly dependent on the Sublime Porte. In the administration of the sanjak the mutasarrif is assisted by a council called majlis ida ra; the city has a municipal government (majlis baladiye) presided over by a mayor. The total population is estimated at 66,000. The Turkish census of 1905, which counts only Ottoman subjects, gives these figures:
Jews, 45,000; Moslems, 8,000; Orthodox Christians, 6000; Latins, 2500; Armenians, 950; Protestants, 800; Melkites, 250; Copts, 150; Abyssinians, 100; Jacobites, 100; Catholic Syrians, 50. During the Nineteenth century large suburbs to the north and east have grown up, chiefly for the use of the Jewish colony. These suburbs contain nearly Half the present population...""

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Growth of Jerusalem 1838-Present

....... Jews Muslims Christians Total
1838 6,000 5,000 3,000 14,000
1844 7,120 5,760 3,390 16,270 ..... ..The First Official Ottoman Census
1876 12,000 7,560 5,470 25,030 .... .....Second """"""""""
1905 40,000 8,000 10,900 58,900 ....... Third/last, detailed in CathEncyc above
1948 99,320 36,680 31,300 167,300
1990 353,200 124,200 14,000 491,400
1992 385,000 150,000 15,000 550,000

http://www.testimony-magazine.org/jerusalem/bring.htm



Want to try again as this is the results for the Sanjak of Jerusalem, which takes in most of what is now Israel and Jordan

Demographic history of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A 2015 entry by an Islamic, want to put two and two together ?

And why should we trust a Catholic entry?

Because it is taken from the Ottoman archives of the census results they compiled. So is based on source material that shows the Jews were in the majority during Ottoman rule.

 

[Phoenall]

So you are now saying that islam was invented 2700 years before mo'mad was born. Why haven't we seen this mentioned in the history books, have we been lied to by our leaders all these years and really we should be worshipping allah.

Indigenous Jews have lived there for 4,500 years, Palestinian muslims for 22 years then for 140 years.

You seem to be missing big chunks of information Phoenal. For example - when Islam appeared, Muslims didn't just drop from the sky like manna from heaven. They didn't appear out nowhere fully formed.

The people that are Muslim today are descendents of peoples who lived there and were previously Christian, Jewish, and other religions that existed there. Read the quotes I posted. They are descendents of the indiginous peoples mixed with other people who migrated over time (just like the Jews).

So I suggest you ditch that bit of nonsense and look at some history books.

Your words

Wrong. There were many Palestinian Muslims who had lived there as long as the indiginous Jews.



The indigenous Jews have lived there for 4,500 years, islam and the muslims were not invented until 2700 years later so could not have lived there. They are arabs that came from the south, in fact the Arabian peninsular, they are not Jews and not indigenous to the area. It is you that needs to read proper history books and not Islamic nonsense and propaganda.

Phoenal - THEY ARE THE SAME PEOPLE. You're implying that the only indiginous people are the people we now call Jews and that simply isn't true. NONE of my sources were "Islamic" - they were main stream historical sources. While some Arabs migrated - many indiginous people converted. When Christianity was the dominant religion - they converted. When Islam was the dominant religion - many converted.

This is supported by a number of historical sources. Can you support your claim by any reputable historical sources?

Don't confuse the carrier of the information with the author of the information and claim that the carrier is the source. Your sources were written by muslims making them Islamic propaganda.

When islam invaded they practised the commands in the koran and forced people to convert, many faked conversion and kept their original religion in secret. The Roman church was the same and forced conversion on people, and they faked their conversion. Well documented by many prominent Judaic scholars of the time who faked conversion so they could write it all down. The most well known accounts where those of Maimonides a Jewish scholar who pretended to be a muslim.

Like these sources? (none of whom are Muslim):

Origins of Palestinians and Jews in Palestine/Israel | Page 4 | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Are you sure as this entry was amended within a very short time, and the amender had this to say


(cur | prev) 14:58, 9 April 2002‎ RK (talk | contribs)‎ . . (6,741 bytes) (-664)‎ . . (Removing obvious anti-Israeli propaganda and childish insults. Also removing justification of terrorism and threat to murder Jews.)


Now is this still not an Islamic source as the author has an IP address from an Islamic nation if you look

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, Coyote, et al,

And imbedded here, are a couple of the arguments the Palestinians use.

I see "selfish" intent in those who seek to disenfranchise a people by insisting they are "invaders" and by implication - that they have no rights to the region even though they have been there for centuries.

The indigenous people of Palestine were not just the Jews. They included Muslims and Christians who descended from people that predated the arrival of Islam. Yet people keep insisting that they are "squatters", "invaders". They are as indigenous as the Jews. That means they have rights there.

(COMMENT)

The original intent by the Allied Powers invested with the rights and title surrendered by the Ottoman and Turks, was that Jewish Immigrants and the Arab inhabitants would somehow live together. The Allied Powers in 1916 thru 1920 did not grasp the Incompatibility of temperament (“not able to live in harmonious or agreeable combination") that would reveal itself and demonstrate that the cultures are diametrically opposed (characterized by opposite extremes) and hardily resistant to assimilation. The Mandatory drove this point home twice when the British Foreign Secretary in a report (18th February 1947) to the House of Commons that:

“His Majesty’s Government have …been faced with an irreconcilable conflict of principles. There are in Palestine about 1,200,000 Arabs and 600,000 Jews. For the Jews the essential point of principle is the creation of sovereign Jewish State. For the Arabs, the essential point of principle is to resist to the last the establishment of Jewish sovereignty in any part of Palestine.

"We shall explain that the Mandate has proved to be unworkable in practice, and that the obligations undertaken to the two communities in Palestine have been shown to be irreconcilable."​

You must be careful to understand the twist behind the Arab-Israeli Conflict. The Arab Palestinians want to apply law and rights that did not exist in the period. Remember. all the way up to May 1945, the deportation of Jews from Nazi-occupied territories all across Europe --- transporting Jews to the extermination camps in Poland begins. There were no Human Rights laws, or protocols of self-determination.

Coyote, et al,

The question is not about numbers. It is not about who is indigenous.

Anyone can look at the number and see that there were more Arabs than Jews. But that is not the question at all.

The question is bigger than the selfish wants of the utilitarian Arabs in the territory. It is about the safety and preservation of an entire culture. And the great thinkers and leaders of that time understood that.

Arguments against setting the Jews in an area from which they cannot defend themselves are perhaps more intuitive: much of the populations, such as those of the WWII Europe where under threat from human social orders that could not be foreseen in 1916. But 1947, there was more to consider than just the Arabs of Palestine, because the world leaders saw that, absent an adequate defense, the Arab would eventually turn on the Jews, just as the Europeans did.

No, sheer numbers, land ownership, and longevity are not the simplified moral logic that was used in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people. It was much bigger than that.

OK, but none of that had anything to do with the creation of Israel.

(COMMENT)

I has everything to do with the immigration, naturalization, and the establishment of sovereignty. It is the original --- "why" --- that the Allied Powers (early on in the century) even entertained the idea --- and --- gave serious consideration to the establishment of theJewish National Home. And, it became even almost a categorical imperative (the necessity to bring into existence an obligation on the part of the Allied Powers to carry out the relevant action) after WWII and the assessment of the European countries that accepted Anti-Jewish policies imposed upon NAZI occupied Denmark, Norway, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, and in other European countries under NAZI domination.

There was no reason to expect that any European Leadership could be trusted in the future to come to the aid of the Jewish People. A solution had to be found in which the Jewish People had a safe haven that they could defend against anti-Jewish activities under the color of law.

"The MS St. Louis was a German ocean liner most notable for a single voyage in 1939, in which her captain, Gustav Schröder, tried to find homes for 908 Jewish refugees from Germany, after they were denied entry to Cuba and the United States, until finally accepted in various European countries, which were later engulfed in World War II. Historians have estimated that, after their return to Europe, approximately a quarter of the ship's passengers died in death camps." From: Wikipedia
​

The existence of the State of Israel is a culmination of a series of events that gradually build the conditions for the Declarations of Independence. But the reasons behind the General Assemble of 1947 adopted the "Steps Preparatory to Independence" are numerous and varied. And the fact that the leadership of the Arab League so blatantly initiated a multinational attack on Israel in 1948 to circumvent the intentions of the General Assembly, was a very common occurrence in the history of Jewish People; not two years before, subjected to NAZI extermination camps, concentration camps, and forced labor camps.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco, I think we are arguing two completely different things.

Are or are not the Palestinians of today descendents of a mix of indiginous peoples who converted to Christianity and Islam when those religions dominated the territory, and new migrants from surrounding areas? That is what people are trying to deny - the claim that the only real Palestinians were Jews is false.

Are not the Jews in today's Israel a combination of the descendents of a mix of indiginous peoples who retained their faith and immigrants from around the world who maintained their faith in the diaspora but also had to marry outside of their ethnic group in order to survive the diaspora as a people?

And Rocco - what is the purpose in claiming that Muslim Palestinians are not indiginous? Is it the same purpose as claiming that Jews are not indiginous? An effort to disenfranchise the legitimate rights of a native people?

NO they are recent arrivals from wholly Islamic nations in the vicinity of Palestine. This is shown when the UN had to alter existing rules for refugee status so that the arab muslim illegal immigrants could be covered. Even then they had to create a new UN body to provide for their welfare because the majority of "Palestinians" had less than two years residency in Palestine.
The geneticists find that the majority of Jews have a common ancestor that the Palestinians don't, they have even narrowed them down to individual tribes the DNA is that positive and foolproof.
The purpose is to show the extent that anti Jews and Nazis will go to when it comes to demonising the Jews and denying them their rights under international laws. The muslims are not a native people, they themselves claim to be Syrian and Egyptian before being Palestinian.

 

[Coyote]

P F Tinmore, Coyote, et al,

And imbedded here, are a couple of the arguments the Palestinians use.

I see "selfish" intent in those who seek to disenfranchise a people by insisting they are "invaders" and by implication - that they have no rights to the region even though they have been there for centuries.

The indigenous people of Palestine were not just the Jews. They included Muslims and Christians who descended from people that predated the arrival of Islam. Yet people keep insisting that they are "squatters", "invaders". They are as indigenous as the Jews. That means they have rights there.

(COMMENT)

The original intent by the Allied Powers invested with the rights and title surrendered by the Ottoman and Turks, was that Jewish Immigrants and the Arab inhabitants would somehow live together. The Allied Powers in 1916 thru 1920 did not grasp the Incompatibility of temperament (“not able to live in harmonious or agreeable combination") that would reveal itself and demonstrate that the cultures are diametrically opposed (characterized by opposite extremes) and hardily resistant to assimilation. The Mandatory drove this point home twice when the British Foreign Secretary in a report (18th February 1947) to the House of Commons that:

“His Majesty’s Government have …been faced with an irreconcilable conflict of principles. There are in Palestine about 1,200,000 Arabs and 600,000 Jews. For the Jews the essential point of principle is the creation of sovereign Jewish State. For the Arabs, the essential point of principle is to resist to the last the establishment of Jewish sovereignty in any part of Palestine.

"We shall explain that the Mandate has proved to be unworkable in practice, and that the obligations undertaken to the two communities in Palestine have been shown to be irreconcilable."​

You must be careful to understand the twist behind the Arab-Israeli Conflict. The Arab Palestinians want to apply law and rights that did not exist in the period. Remember. all the way up to May 1945, the deportation of Jews from Nazi-occupied territories all across Europe --- transporting Jews to the extermination camps in Poland begins. There were no Human Rights laws, or protocols of self-determination.

Coyote, et al,

The question is not about numbers. It is not about who is indigenous.

Anyone can look at the number and see that there were more Arabs than Jews. But that is not the question at all.

The question is bigger than the selfish wants of the utilitarian Arabs in the territory. It is about the safety and preservation of an entire culture. And the great thinkers and leaders of that time understood that.

Arguments against setting the Jews in an area from which they cannot defend themselves are perhaps more intuitive: much of the populations, such as those of the WWII Europe where under threat from human social orders that could not be foreseen in 1916. But 1947, there was more to consider than just the Arabs of Palestine, because the world leaders saw that, absent an adequate defense, the Arab would eventually turn on the Jews, just as the Europeans did.

No, sheer numbers, land ownership, and longevity are not the simplified moral logic that was used in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people. It was much bigger than that.

OK, but none of that had anything to do with the creation of Israel.

(COMMENT)

I has everything to do with the immigration, naturalization, and the establishment of sovereignty. It is the original --- "why" --- that the Allied Powers (early on in the century) even entertained the idea --- and --- gave serious consideration to the establishment of theJewish National Home. And, it became even almost a categorical imperative (the necessity to bring into existence an obligation on the part of the Allied Powers to carry out the relevant action) after WWII and the assessment of the European countries that accepted Anti-Jewish policies imposed upon NAZI occupied Denmark, Norway, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, and in other European countries under NAZI domination.

There was no reason to expect that any European Leadership could be trusted in the future to come to the aid of the Jewish People. A solution had to be found in which the Jewish People had a safe haven that they could defend against anti-Jewish activities under the color of law.

"The MS St. Louis was a German ocean liner most notable for a single voyage in 1939, in which her captain, Gustav Schröder, tried to find homes for 908 Jewish refugees from Germany, after they were denied entry to Cuba and the United States, until finally accepted in various European countries, which were later engulfed in World War II. Historians have estimated that, after their return to Europe, approximately a quarter of the ship's passengers died in death camps." From: Wikipedia
​

The existence of the State of Israel is a culmination of a series of events that gradually build the conditions for the Declarations of Independence. But the reasons behind the General Assemble of 1947 adopted the "Steps Preparatory to Independence" are numerous and varied. And the fact that the leadership of the Arab League so blatantly initiated a multinational attack on Israel in 1948 to circumvent the intentions of the General Assembly, was a very common occurrence in the history of Jewish People; not two years before, subjected to NAZI extermination camps, concentration camps, and forced labor camps.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco, I think we are arguing two completely different things.

Are or are not the Palestinians of today descendents of a mix of indiginous peoples who converted to Christianity and Islam when those religions dominated the territory, and new migrants from surrounding areas? That is what people are trying to deny - the claim that the only real Palestinians were Jews is false.

Are not the Jews in today's Israel a combination of the descendents of a mix of indiginous peoples who retained their faith and immigrants from around the world who maintained their faith in the diaspora but also had to marry outside of their ethnic group in order to survive the diaspora as a people?

And Rocco - what is the purpose in claiming that Muslim Palestinians are not indiginous? Is it the same purpose as claiming that Jews are not indiginous? An effort to disenfranchise the legitimate rights of a native people?

NO they are recent arrivals from wholly Islamic nations in the vicinity of Palestine. This is shown when the UN had to alter existing rules for refugee status so that the arab muslim illegal immigrants could be covered. Even then they had to create a new UN body to provide for their welfare because the majority of "Palestinians" had less than two years residency in Palestine.

Some of them are, just like some of the Jews are immigrants from Europe.

The geneticists find that the majority of Jews have a common ancestor that the Palestinians don't, they have even narrowed them down to individual tribes the DNA is that positive and foolproof.
The purpose is to show the extent that anti Jews and Nazis will go to when it comes to demonising the Jews and denying them their rights under international laws. The muslims are not a native people, they themselves claim to be Syrian and Egyptian before being Palestinian.

Yet those same genetics show close ties between Jews and "Palestinians".
Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots

The Muslims are descendents of indiginous people who converted to Islam and migrants from surrounding areas.

The only purpose here is to show the extent people like you will go to to demonize people who have lived in the area for centuries. I'm not demonizing anyone. I freely agree that the indiginous population comprises Jews, Christians and Muslims.

The only reason to say otherwise in the face of history is to try to disenfranchise one or the other - is that what you are doing?

 

[Humanity]

Trying to debate with people who are incapable of distinguishing between "indigenous" and "religious" is futile....

I consider myself European... Yet I was born in England to mixed race parents... I do not live in England...

My father was Welsh, a Celt, my mother is English and both can be traced back a great many generations...

My 'religion', given to me, is Church of England...

My chosen 'belief', Agnostic...

My 'religion' dates back to the 6th-century yet I can trace my roots back way before then!

Prior to that I would have been considered Roman Catholic...

Until there can be an acceptance relating to the indigenous people of the ME then there can be no proper debate...

The blinded cannot be show the truth!

The suggestion that 'Palestine' was an uninhabited region, quite possibly the ONLY uninhabited region on this planet is simply ridiculous!

Muslim didn't just suddenly drop from the sky, neither Jews...

Those clouding their own arguments with "Muslim Arabs" are self defeating.... Arabs converted... As did "Jewish Arabs"...

Prior to Muslims and Jews... ALL those living in the region held different beliefs! Muslims/Jews... All converts at one time or another! Some earlier, some later... It really doesn't matter...

Differentiate between 'indigenous' and religious' THEN have the debate!

After all, if you want to argue that Jews aren't Arabs... That's ok... Considering that most are of European descent... However, if you want to argue against that one then that makes Jews Arabs who converted to Judaism...

See where that goes!

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, Coyote, et al,

And imbedded here, are a couple of the arguments the Palestinians use.

I see "selfish" intent in those who seek to disenfranchise a people by insisting they are "invaders" and by implication - that they have no rights to the region even though they have been there for centuries.

The indigenous people of Palestine were not just the Jews. They included Muslims and Christians who descended from people that predated the arrival of Islam. Yet people keep insisting that they are "squatters", "invaders". They are as indigenous as the Jews. That means they have rights there.

(COMMENT)

The original intent by the Allied Powers invested with the rights and title surrendered by the Ottoman and Turks, was that Jewish Immigrants and the Arab inhabitants would somehow live together. The Allied Powers in 1916 thru 1920 did not grasp the Incompatibility of temperament (“not able to live in harmonious or agreeable combination") that would reveal itself and demonstrate that the cultures are diametrically opposed (characterized by opposite extremes) and hardily resistant to assimilation. The Mandatory drove this point home twice when the British Foreign Secretary in a report (18th February 1947) to the House of Commons that:

“His Majesty’s Government have …been faced with an irreconcilable conflict of principles. There are in Palestine about 1,200,000 Arabs and 600,000 Jews. For the Jews the essential point of principle is the creation of sovereign Jewish State. For the Arabs, the essential point of principle is to resist to the last the establishment of Jewish sovereignty in any part of Palestine.

"We shall explain that the Mandate has proved to be unworkable in practice, and that the obligations undertaken to the two communities in Palestine have been shown to be irreconcilable."​

You must be careful to understand the twist behind the Arab-Israeli Conflict. The Arab Palestinians want to apply law and rights that did not exist in the period. Remember. all the way up to May 1945, the deportation of Jews from Nazi-occupied territories all across Europe --- transporting Jews to the extermination camps in Poland begins. There were no Human Rights laws, or protocols of self-determination.

Coyote, et al,

The question is not about numbers. It is not about who is indigenous.

Anyone can look at the number and see that there were more Arabs than Jews. But that is not the question at all.

The question is bigger than the selfish wants of the utilitarian Arabs in the territory. It is about the safety and preservation of an entire culture. And the great thinkers and leaders of that time understood that.

Arguments against setting the Jews in an area from which they cannot defend themselves are perhaps more intuitive: much of the populations, such as those of the WWII Europe where under threat from human social orders that could not be foreseen in 1916. But 1947, there was more to consider than just the Arabs of Palestine, because the world leaders saw that, absent an adequate defense, the Arab would eventually turn on the Jews, just as the Europeans did.

No, sheer numbers, land ownership, and longevity are not the simplified moral logic that was used in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people. It was much bigger than that.

OK, but none of that had anything to do with the creation of Israel.

(COMMENT)

I has everything to do with the immigration, naturalization, and the establishment of sovereignty. It is the original --- "why" --- that the Allied Powers (early on in the century) even entertained the idea --- and --- gave serious consideration to the establishment of theJewish National Home. And, it became even almost a categorical imperative (the necessity to bring into existence an obligation on the part of the Allied Powers to carry out the relevant action) after WWII and the assessment of the European countries that accepted Anti-Jewish policies imposed upon NAZI occupied Denmark, Norway, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, and in other European countries under NAZI domination.

There was no reason to expect that any European Leadership could be trusted in the future to come to the aid of the Jewish People. A solution had to be found in which the Jewish People had a safe haven that they could defend against anti-Jewish activities under the color of law.

"The MS St. Louis was a German ocean liner most notable for a single voyage in 1939, in which her captain, Gustav Schröder, tried to find homes for 908 Jewish refugees from Germany, after they were denied entry to Cuba and the United States, until finally accepted in various European countries, which were later engulfed in World War II. Historians have estimated that, after their return to Europe, approximately a quarter of the ship's passengers died in death camps." From: Wikipedia
​

The existence of the State of Israel is a culmination of a series of events that gradually build the conditions for the Declarations of Independence. But the reasons behind the General Assemble of 1947 adopted the "Steps Preparatory to Independence" are numerous and varied. And the fact that the leadership of the Arab League so blatantly initiated a multinational attack on Israel in 1948 to circumvent the intentions of the General Assembly, was a very common occurrence in the history of Jewish People; not two years before, subjected to NAZI extermination camps, concentration camps, and forced labor camps.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco, I think we are arguing two completely different things.

Are or are not the Palestinians of today descendents of a mix of indiginous peoples who converted to Christianity and Islam when those religions dominated the territory, and new migrants from surrounding areas? That is what people are trying to deny - the claim that the only real Palestinians were Jews is false.

Are not the Jews in today's Israel a combination of the descendents of a mix of indiginous peoples who retained their faith and immigrants from around the world who maintained their faith in the diaspora but also had to marry outside of their ethnic group in order to survive the diaspora as a people?

And Rocco - what is the purpose in claiming that Muslim Palestinians are not indiginous? Is it the same purpose as claiming that Jews are not indiginous? An effort to disenfranchise the legitimate rights of a native people?

NO they are recent arrivals from wholly Islamic nations in the vicinity of Palestine. This is shown when the UN had to alter existing rules for refugee status so that the arab muslim illegal immigrants could be covered. Even then they had to create a new UN body to provide for their welfare because the majority of "Palestinians" had less than two years residency in Palestine.

Some of them are, just like some of the Jews are immigrants from Europe.

The geneticists find that the majority of Jews have a common ancestor that the Palestinians don't, they have even narrowed them down to individual tribes the DNA is that positive and foolproof.
The purpose is to show the extent that anti Jews and Nazis will go to when it comes to demonising the Jews and denying them their rights under international laws. The muslims are not a native people, they themselves claim to be Syrian and Egyptian before being Palestinian.

Yet those same genetics show close ties between Jews and "Palestinians".
Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots

The Muslims are descendents of indiginous people who converted to Islam and migrants from surrounding areas.

The only purpose here is to show the extent people like you will go to to demonize people who have lived in the area for centuries. I'm not demonizing anyone. I freely agree that the indiginous population comprises Jews, Christians and Muslims.

The only reason to say otherwise in the face of history is to try to disenfranchise one or the other - is that what you are doing?

And the arab muslims say they are Syrians and Egyptians. The studies done show that in the 1800's the arab muslims were nomadic and travelled around the whole area. They were not static and could be working in Hebron today and Homs next week. So are they Palestinian or Iranian ? The tests come up with an 85% to 90% match which is the same for man and the great apes down to man and a banana, so how does this mean that Palestinians and Jews are closely related. Look at the studies presented by monte that claim the whole of the European Jewish community is descended from just 4 females. That would mean the inter-breeding would have created genetic mutations and a survival rate of today of less than 10%.

You want to look at demonization then look no further than team palestine's attacks on the Jews around their ancestry and history, with the claims of fictional groups being the Ashkenazi Jews of today.

 

[Phoenall]

Trying to debate with people who are incapable of distinguishing between "indigenous" and "religious" is futile....

I consider myself European... Yet I was born in England to mixed race parents... I do not live in England...

My father was Welsh, a Celt, my mother is English and both can be traced back a great many generations...

My 'religion', given to me, is Church of England...

My chosen 'belief', Agnostic...

My 'religion' dates back to the 6th-century yet I can trace my roots back way before then!

Prior to that I would have been considered Roman Catholic...

Until there can be an acceptance relating to the indigenous people of the ME then there can be no proper debate...

The blinded cannot be show the truth!

The suggestion that 'Palestine' was an uninhabited region, quite possibly the ONLY uninhabited region on this planet is simply ridiculous!

Muslim didn't just suddenly drop from the sky, neither Jews...

Those clouding their own arguments with "Muslim Arabs" are self defeating.... Arabs converted... As did "Jewish Arabs"...

Prior to Muslims and Jews... ALL those living in the region held different beliefs! Muslims/Jews... All converts at one time or another! Some earlier, some later... It really doesn't matter...

Differentiate between 'indigenous' and religious' THEN have the debate!

After all, if you want to argue that Jews aren't Arabs... That's ok... Considering that most are of European descent... However, if you want to argue against that one then that makes Jews Arabs who converted to Judaism...

See where that goes!

And you do exactly the same thing as you claim others are doing when you claim that most Jews are European descent when the evidence of even your own links shows they are not.

 

[Humanity]

Trying to debate with people who are incapable of distinguishing between "indigenous" and "religious" is futile....

I consider myself European... Yet I was born in England to mixed race parents... I do not live in England...

My father was Welsh, a Celt, my mother is English and both can be traced back a great many generations...

My 'religion', given to me, is Church of England...

My chosen 'belief', Agnostic...

My 'religion' dates back to the 6th-century yet I can trace my roots back way before then!

Prior to that I would have been considered Roman Catholic...

Until there can be an acceptance relating to the indigenous people of the ME then there can be no proper debate...

The blinded cannot be show the truth!

The suggestion that 'Palestine' was an uninhabited region, quite possibly the ONLY uninhabited region on this planet is simply ridiculous!

Muslim didn't just suddenly drop from the sky, neither Jews...

Those clouding their own arguments with "Muslim Arabs" are self defeating.... Arabs converted... As did "Jewish Arabs"...

Prior to Muslims and Jews... ALL those living in the region held different beliefs! Muslims/Jews... All converts at one time or another! Some earlier, some later... It really doesn't matter...

Differentiate between 'indigenous' and religious' THEN have the debate!

After all, if you want to argue that Jews aren't Arabs... That's ok... Considering that most are of European descent... However, if you want to argue against that one then that makes Jews Arabs who converted to Judaism...

See where that goes!

And you do exactly the same thing as you claim others are doing when you claim that most Jews are European descent when the evidence of even your own links shows they are not.

Nice deflection but I don't claim anything of the sort Phoney!

However, what you have done with your attempted deflection is miss the point completely...

I'm not going to bother posting the evidence that proves you are wrong, that has been done far too many times, and you still choose to ignore the facts...

Your zionist mentality blinds you to the very simple fact that the majority of the Jewish population are descendants of European Jews...

If we are to believe your skewed belief then the Jews in Israel are all Arabs... That makes them exactly the same as Palestinians...

 

[Phoenall]

Trying to debate with people who are incapable of distinguishing between "indigenous" and "religious" is futile....

I consider myself European... Yet I was born in England to mixed race parents... I do not live in England...

My father was Welsh, a Celt, my mother is English and both can be traced back a great many generations...

My 'religion', given to me, is Church of England...

My chosen 'belief', Agnostic...

My 'religion' dates back to the 6th-century yet I can trace my roots back way before then!

Prior to that I would have been considered Roman Catholic...

Until there can be an acceptance relating to the indigenous people of the ME then there can be no proper debate...

The blinded cannot be show the truth!

The suggestion that 'Palestine' was an uninhabited region, quite possibly the ONLY uninhabited region on this planet is simply ridiculous!

Muslim didn't just suddenly drop from the sky, neither Jews...

Those clouding their own arguments with "Muslim Arabs" are self defeating.... Arabs converted... As did "Jewish Arabs"...

Prior to Muslims and Jews... ALL those living in the region held different beliefs! Muslims/Jews... All converts at one time or another! Some earlier, some later... It really doesn't matter...

Differentiate between 'indigenous' and religious' THEN have the debate!

After all, if you want to argue that Jews aren't Arabs... That's ok... Considering that most are of European descent... However, if you want to argue against that one then that makes Jews Arabs who converted to Judaism...

See where that goes!

And you do exactly the same thing as you claim others are doing when you claim that most Jews are European descent when the evidence of even your own links shows they are not.

Nice deflection but I don't claim anything of the sort Phoney!

However, what you have done with your attempted deflection is miss the point completely...

I'm not going to bother posting the evidence that proves you are wrong, that has been done far too many times, and you still choose to ignore the facts...

Your zionist mentality blinds you to the very simple fact that the majority of the Jewish population are descendants of European Jews...

If we are to believe your skewed belief then the Jews in Israel are all Arabs... That makes them exactly the same as Palestinians...

WRONG

 

[Humanity]

Trying to debate with people who are incapable of distinguishing between "indigenous" and "religious" is futile....

I consider myself European... Yet I was born in England to mixed race parents... I do not live in England...

My father was Welsh, a Celt, my mother is English and both can be traced back a great many generations...

My 'religion', given to me, is Church of England...

My chosen 'belief', Agnostic...

My 'religion' dates back to the 6th-century yet I can trace my roots back way before then!

Prior to that I would have been considered Roman Catholic...

Until there can be an acceptance relating to the indigenous people of the ME then there can be no proper debate...

The blinded cannot be show the truth!

The suggestion that 'Palestine' was an uninhabited region, quite possibly the ONLY uninhabited region on this planet is simply ridiculous!

Muslim didn't just suddenly drop from the sky, neither Jews...

Those clouding their own arguments with "Muslim Arabs" are self defeating.... Arabs converted... As did "Jewish Arabs"...

Prior to Muslims and Jews... ALL those living in the region held different beliefs! Muslims/Jews... All converts at one time or another! Some earlier, some later... It really doesn't matter...

Differentiate between 'indigenous' and religious' THEN have the debate!

After all, if you want to argue that Jews aren't Arabs... That's ok... Considering that most are of European descent... However, if you want to argue against that one then that makes Jews Arabs who converted to Judaism...

See where that goes!

And you do exactly the same thing as you claim others are doing when you claim that most Jews are European descent when the evidence of even your own links shows they are not.

Nice deflection but I don't claim anything of the sort Phoney!

However, what you have done with your attempted deflection is miss the point completely...

I'm not going to bother posting the evidence that proves you are wrong, that has been done far too many times, and you still choose to ignore the facts...

Your zionist mentality blinds you to the very simple fact that the majority of the Jewish population are descendants of European Jews...

If we are to believe your skewed belief then the Jews in Israel are all Arabs... That makes them exactly the same as Palestinians...

WRONG

Care to elaborate?

 

[Phoenall]

Trying to debate with people who are incapable of distinguishing between "indigenous" and "religious" is futile....

I consider myself European... Yet I was born in England to mixed race parents... I do not live in England...

My father was Welsh, a Celt, my mother is English and both can be traced back a great many generations...

My 'religion', given to me, is Church of England...

My chosen 'belief', Agnostic...

My 'religion' dates back to the 6th-century yet I can trace my roots back way before then!

Prior to that I would have been considered Roman Catholic...

Until there can be an acceptance relating to the indigenous people of the ME then there can be no proper debate...

The blinded cannot be show the truth!

The suggestion that 'Palestine' was an uninhabited region, quite possibly the ONLY uninhabited region on this planet is simply ridiculous!

Muslim didn't just suddenly drop from the sky, neither Jews...

Those clouding their own arguments with "Muslim Arabs" are self defeating.... Arabs converted... As did "Jewish Arabs"...

Prior to Muslims and Jews... ALL those living in the region held different beliefs! Muslims/Jews... All converts at one time or another! Some earlier, some later... It really doesn't matter...

Differentiate between 'indigenous' and religious' THEN have the debate!

After all, if you want to argue that Jews aren't Arabs... That's ok... Considering that most are of European descent... However, if you want to argue against that one then that makes Jews Arabs who converted to Judaism...

See where that goes!

And you do exactly the same thing as you claim others are doing when you claim that most Jews are European descent when the evidence of even your own links shows they are not.

Nice deflection but I don't claim anything of the sort Phoney!

However, what you have done with your attempted deflection is miss the point completely...

I'm not going to bother posting the evidence that proves you are wrong, that has been done far too many times, and you still choose to ignore the facts...

Your zionist mentality blinds you to the very simple fact that the majority of the Jewish population are descendants of European Jews...

If we are to believe your skewed belief then the Jews in Israel are all Arabs... That makes them exactly the same as Palestinians...

WRONG

Care to elaborate?

NOPE I said it all that needed saying

 

[Humanity]

Trying to debate with people who are incapable of distinguishing between "indigenous" and "religious" is futile....

I consider myself European... Yet I was born in England to mixed race parents... I do not live in England...

My father was Welsh, a Celt, my mother is English and both can be traced back a great many generations...

My 'religion', given to me, is Church of England...

My chosen 'belief', Agnostic...

My 'religion' dates back to the 6th-century yet I can trace my roots back way before then!

Prior to that I would have been considered Roman Catholic...

Until there can be an acceptance relating to the indigenous people of the ME then there can be no proper debate...

The blinded cannot be show the truth!

The suggestion that 'Palestine' was an uninhabited region, quite possibly the ONLY uninhabited region on this planet is simply ridiculous!

Muslim didn't just suddenly drop from the sky, neither Jews...

Those clouding their own arguments with "Muslim Arabs" are self defeating.... Arabs converted... As did "Jewish Arabs"...

Prior to Muslims and Jews... ALL those living in the region held different beliefs! Muslims/Jews... All converts at one time or another! Some earlier, some later... It really doesn't matter...

Differentiate between 'indigenous' and religious' THEN have the debate!

After all, if you want to argue that Jews aren't Arabs... That's ok... Considering that most are of European descent... However, if you want to argue against that one then that makes Jews Arabs who converted to Judaism...

See where that goes!

And you do exactly the same thing as you claim others are doing when you claim that most Jews are European descent when the evidence of even your own links shows they are not.

Nice deflection but I don't claim anything of the sort Phoney!

However, what you have done with your attempted deflection is miss the point completely...

I'm not going to bother posting the evidence that proves you are wrong, that has been done far too many times, and you still choose to ignore the facts...

Your zionist mentality blinds you to the very simple fact that the majority of the Jewish population are descendants of European Jews...

If we are to believe your skewed belief then the Jews in Israel are all Arabs... That makes them exactly the same as Palestinians...

WRONG

Care to elaborate?

NOPE I said it all that needed saying

Hahaha...

 

[Roudy]

Jews maintained a presence throughout the millennia and never truly left. The land was Ottoman territory for 800 years and then fell under British control after WWI, who allocated it to be the Jewish homeland and the international community approved of this. During the 800 years of Ottoman control, they as Muslims, never recognized a Palestine or Palestinian people. Case closed.

The Jews were absent from the area for over 2,000 years and returned as Zionists. Israel,is the result of a European colonial project and has no legitimacy. Case closed.

Bullshit!


Despite the many invasions and pogroms, the Jews always maintained a presence and always kept coming back to their religious, spiritual, and cultural holy land. The land truly belongs to the Jews.


History of the Jews and Judaism in the Land of Israel - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Byzantine period (324–638)

Jews probably constituted the majority of the population of Palestine until the 4th-century, when Constantine converted to Christianity.

Jews lived in at least forty-three Jewish communities in Palestine: twelve towns on the coast, in the Negev, and east of the Jordan, and thirty-one villages in Galilee and in the Jordan valley. The persecuted Jews of Palestine revolted twice against their Christian rulers. In the 5th century, the Western Roman Empire collapsed leading to Christian migration into Palestine and development of a Christian majority. Jews numbered 10–15% of the population. Judaism was the only non-Christian religion tolerated, but there were bans on Jews building new places of worship, holding public office or owning slaves. There were also two Samaritan revolts in this period.[65]

In 438, The Empress Eudocia removed the ban on Jews' praying at the Temple site and the heads of the Community in Galilee issued a call "to the great and mighty people of the Jews": "Know that the end of the exile of our people has come"!

In about 450, the Jerusalem Talmud was completed.

According to Procopius, in 533 Byzantine general Belisarius took the treasures of the Jewish temple from Vandals who had taken them from Rome.

In 611, Sassanid Persia invaded the Byzantine Empire. In 613, a Jewish revolt against the Byzantine Empire joined forces with these Persian invaders to capture Jerusalem in 614. The Jews gained autonomy in Jerusalem, until in 617 when the Persians betrayed agreements and withdrew their forces from the region. With return of the Byzantines in 628, the Byzantine Emperor Heraclius promised to restore Jewish rights and received Jewish help in ousting the Persians with the aid of Jewish leader Benjamin of Tiberias.

Middle Ages (636–1517)

After the conquest, Jewish communities began to grow and flourish. Umar allowed and encouraged Jews to settle in Jerusalem. It was first time, after almost 500 years of oppressive Christian rule, that Jews were allowed to enter and worship freely in their holy city.

In the mid-8th-century, taking advantage of the warring Islamic factions in Palestine, a false messiah named Abu Isa Obadiah of Isfahan inspired and organised a group of 10,000 armed Jews who hoped to restore the Holy Land to the Jewish nation.

In 1039, part of the synagogue in Ramla was still in ruins, probably resulting from the earthquake of 1033. Jews also returned to Rafah and documents from 1015 and 1080 attest to a significant community there.

A large Jewish community existed in Ramle and smaller communities inhabited Hebron and the coastal cities of Acre, Caesarea, Jaffa, Ashkelon and Gaza.[citation needed]Al-Muqaddasi (985) wrote that "for the most part the assayers of corn, dyers, bankers, and tanners are Jews." Under the Islamic rule, the rights of Jews and Christians were curtailed and residence was permitted upon payment of the special tax.

Between the 7th and 11th centuries, Masoretes (Jewish scribes) in the Galilee and Jerusalem were active in compiling a system of pronunciation and grammatical guides of the Hebrew language. They authorised the division of the Jewish Tanakh, known as the Masoretic Text, which is regarded as authoritative till today.

Ottoman rule (1517–1917)

The 16th-century nevertheless saw a resurgence of Jewish life in Palestine. Palestinian rabbis were instrumental producing a universally accepted manual of Jewish law and some of the most beautiful liturgical poems. Much of this activity occurred at Safed which had become a spiritual centre, a haven for mystics. Joseph Karo's comprehensive guide to Jewish law, the Shulchan Aruch, was considered so authoritative that the variant customs of German-Polish Jewry were merely added as supplement glosses. Some of the most celebrated hymns were written at in Safed by poets such as Israel Najara andSolomon Alkabetz. The town was also a centre of Jewish mysticism, notable kabbalists included Moses Cordovero and the German-born Naphtali Hertz ben Jacob Elhanan. A new method of understanding the kabbalah was developed by Palestinian mystic Isaac Luria, and espoused by his student Chaim Vital. In Safed, the Jews developed a number of branches of trade, especially in grain, spices, textiles and dyeing. In 1577, a Hebrewprinting press was established in Safed. The 8,000 or 10,000 Jews in Safed in 1555 grew to 20,000 or 30,000 by the end of the century.

Old Yishuv

Jewish life in the Land of Israel

Key events

• Aliya of Nachmanides (1267)
• Hebron and Safed massacres (1517)
• Revival of Tiberias (1563)
• Sack of Tiberias (1660)
• Hebron massacre (1834)
• Safed attack (1838)
• Jerusalem expansion
• Petach Tikva founded (1878)

Key figures

• Ishtori Haparchi (d. 1313)
• Joseph Saragossi (d. 1507)
• Obadiah MiBartenura (d. 1515)
• Levi ibn Habib (d. 1545)
• Jacob Berab (d. 1546)
• Joseph Nasi (d. 1579)
• Moses Galante (d. 1689)
• Moses ibn Habib (d. 1696)
• Yehuda he-Hasid (d. 1700)
• Haim Abulafia (d. 1744)
• Menachem Mendel (d. 1788)
• Haim Farhi (d. 1820)
• Jacob Saphir (d. 1886)
• Haim Aharon Valero (d. 1923)

• Ramban (1267)

• Abraham Avinu (1540)

• Johanan ben Zakai (1600s)

In around 1563, Joseph Nasi secured permission from Sultan Selim II to acquire Tiberias and seven surrounding villages to create a Jewish city-state. He hoped that large numbers of Jewish refugees and Marranos would settle there, free from fear and oppression; indeed, the persecuted Jews of Cori, Italy, numbering about 200 souls, decided to emigrate to Tiberias.Nasi had the walls of the town rebuilt by 1564 and attempted to turn it into a self-sufficient textile manufacturing center by planting mulberry trees for the cultivation of silk. Nevertheless, a number of factors during the following years contributed to the plan's ultimate failure. Nasi's aunt, Doña Gracia Mendes Nasi supported ayeshiva in the town for many years until her death in 1569.

In 1567, a Yemenite scholar and Rabbi, Zechariah Dhahiri, visited Safed and wrote of his experiences in a book entitled Sefer Ha-Musar. His vivid descriptions of the town Safed and of Rabbi Joseph Karo’s yeshiva are of primary importance to historians, seeing that they are a first-hand account of these places, and the only extant account which describes the yeshiva of the great Sephardic Rabbi, Joseph Karo.[127]

In 1576, the Jewish community of Safed faced an expulsion order: 1,000 prosperous families were to be deported to Cyprus, "for the good of the said island", with another 500 the following year.[128] The order was later rescinded due to the realisation of the financial gains of Jewish rental income.[129] In 1586, the Jews of Istanbul agreed to build a fortified khan to provide a refuge for Safed's Jews against "night bandits and armed thieves."[128]

In 1569, the Radbaz moved to Jerusalem, but soon moved to Safed to escape the high taxes imposed on Jews by the authorities.

In 1610, the Yochanan ben Zakai Synagogue in Jerusalem was completed.[130] It became the main synagogue of the Sephardic Jews, the place where their chief rabbi was invested. The adjacent study hall which had been added by 1625 later became the Synagogue of Elijah the Prophet.[130]


Installation of the Chacham Bashi at the Ben Zakai Synagogue, 1893. According to legend, the synagogue stands on the site of the study hall of 1st-century sage, RabbanYochanan ben Zakai. The current building was constructed in 1610.