Origins of Palestinians and Jews in Palestine/Israel

[Shusha]

I find similar characteristics from the Israeli narrative:
1. The complete lack of assignation of responsibility to both the people and the governments of Israel in this conflict.
2. The uncritical justification for inequities in the Israeli criminal and justice system in regards to Palestinians and Jews.
3. The systemic dehuminization and demonization of Palestinians.

Hmmm. Interesting. This is not my experience. Its getting a bit off-topic for this thread, but if you can find examples, preferrably from this thread, I would be happy to address them or even possibly agree with you. I have never witnessed individuals who primarily argue from the Israeli narrative to dehumanize or demonize Palestinians, let alone systemically. But perhaps you can convince me otherwise with some examples.

You've have to be kidding.

If you have examples, show them to me.

 

[Shusha]

I find similar characteristics from the Israeli narrative:
1. The complete lack of assignation of responsibility to both the people and the governments of Israel in this conflict.
2. The uncritical justification for inequities in the Israeli criminal and justice system in regards to Palestinians and Jews.
3. The systemic dehuminization and demonization of Palestinians.

Hmmm. Interesting. This is not my experience. Its getting a bit off-topic for this thread, but if you can find examples, preferrably from this thread, I would be happy to address them or even possibly agree with you. I have never witnessed individuals who primarily argue from the Israeli narrative to dehumanize or demonize Palestinians, let alone systemically. But perhaps you can convince me otherwise with some examples.

I will have to start a new thread for that and shall

Cool.

 

[Phoenall]

I'm going by exactly what you said - are you backing away from that claim now?

Ok...let's review this.

Multiple ancient people's lived in the area referred to as "Palestine"....

Canaan
The earliest references refer to "Canaan". At that time, the indigenous people of Canaan worshiped many gods but, chief among them, the goddess Astarte and her consort Baal. Women had some pretty decent rights... "Women could and did serve as Priestesses, could own land, enter into contracts and initiate divorce". That's just a sidenote, but surprising.

Then, a bunch of unruly slaves led by a madman who got his orders from talking burning bushes invaded Canaan, "subdued" the native population and conquered it's cities and in installed their newly invented monotheistic religion.

Palestine

Then, the Phillistines invaded (a term that still means course, vulgar and barbarian) and were partially subdued by the Israelites.
Then the Assyrians invaded, subdued the Phillistines completely, sacked and raped their way to glory and sold the inhabitants into slavery.
Eventually - Alexander the Great "liberated" Palestine and claimed it.
Then the Roman's claimed it.

Then along comes a zombie messiah - Christianity was invented and sweeps through the the region.

Then along comes a camel herder in the Arabian Peninsula who hears voices in a cave, invents Islam which then sweeps through the region. Muslims captured Jeruselum in 638 AD, not - as you say "in fact the arab muslims arrived between the late 1890's and the mid 1960's." Your claim isn't even remotely close.

In all these successive invasions, conquering and migrations - religions moved along with people and the indiginous inhabitants often converted to the new religions.


Stop right there. That is NOT what I'm saying. It is YOU saying that one group has "more rights" than another. They don't. None of them do. They are closely bound together and have been so thousands of years weathering a succession of conquering peoples...starting with the Israelites. The whole argument of rights determined by ancient history is idiotic and depends on a completely arbritary system of determining what is considered "long enough" to be "legitimate".

And through all of that there was a core group of people (Muslims, Christians, and Jews) who stayed and put down roots. Those are your Palestinians.

YES but the muslims and Christians are in the mionority as shown by the Catholic Encyclopaedia

Why should we believe a "Catholic Encyclopaedia"? The city of Jeruselum was the only region that had a Jewish majority population.

MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

Wrong it was the sanjak of Jerusalem that took in part or what is now Jordan, the upper part of what is Israel extending down to gaza. Just leaving the Negev as not counted in any census. It is an informed historical report drawn up by the Ottomans and the LoN that every member of team Palestine wants to debunk and cant without re-writing history.

Demographic history of Jerusalem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Muslim or Jewish "relative majority"

Between 1838 and 1876, conflicting estimates exist regarding whether Muslims or Jews constituted a "relative majority" (or plurality) in the city.


Writing in 1841, the biblical scholar Edward Robinson noted the conflicting demographic estimates regarding Jerusalem during the period, stating in reference to an 1839 estimate by Moses Montefiore: "As to the Jews, the enumeration in question was made out by themselves, in the expectation of receiving a certain amount of alms for every name returned. It is therefore obvious that they here had as strong a motive to exaggerate their number, as they often have in other circumstances to underrate it."[17] In 1843, Reverend F.C. Ewald, a Christian traveler visiting Jerusalem, reported an influx of 150 Jews from Algiers. He wrote that there were now a large number of Jews from the coast of Africa who were forming a separate congregation.[18]


Between 1856 and 1880, Jewish immigration to Palestine more than doubled, with the majority settling in Jerusalem.[19] The majority of these immigrants were Ashkenazi Jews from Eastern Europe, who subsisted on Halukka.[19]


In 1881–82, a group of Jews arrived from Yemen as a result of messianic fervor.[20][21] After living in the Old City for several years, they moved to the hills facing the City of David, where they lived in caves.[22] In 1884, the community, numbering 200, moved to new stone houses built for them by a Jewish charity.[23]​

This same Wikipedia source shows the fluxuating relative populations over several hundred years with the caution that boundaries for Jeruselum fluxuated over time.

According to this book: Israel Or Palestine? Is the Two-state Solution Already Dead? the population of Palestine, by the middle of the 19th century was 84% Muslim Arab, 10% Christian Arab, 1% Druze and 5% Jewish.

You're source seems to be the only one making this population claim - so either it's wrong, or it refers to only a portion of the Jeruselum sanjak - I don't know, I can't find original sources.

Did you see this in your link that shows the Jews were the majority


Jews as absolute or relative majority[edit]
Year Jews Muslims Christians Total Original Source As quoted in
1882 9,000 7,000 5,000 21,000 Wilson Kark and Oren-Nordheim, 2001[14]
1885 15,000 6,000 14,000 35,000 Goldmann Kark and Oren-Nordheim, 2001[14]
1893 >50% ? ? ~40,000 Albert Shaw, Writer Shaw, 1894 [38]
1896 28,112 8,560 8,748 45,420 Calendar of Palestine for the year 5656 Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1905 13,300 11,000 8,100 32,400 1905 Ottoman census (only Ottoman citizens) U.O.Schmelz[39]
1922 33,971 13,413 14,669 62,578 Census of Palestine (British) Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1931 51,200 19,900 19,300 90,053 Census of Palestine (British) Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1944 97,000 30,600 29,400 157,000 ? Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1967 195,700 54,963 12,646 263,307 Harrel, 1974




Shows that the Jews were the absolute majority apart from the period 1948-1967 when they were forcibly evicted and their property destroyed. ( timeline at the bottom of the wiki entry )

 

[Phoenall]

Some were but many were settled farmers. The studies done refer to the Beduoin. The word "Arab" was used to classify a broad range of people.

To listen to you the only inhabitants of that region until 1960 were Jews and that's a blatant falsehood.

Then you are employing selective hearing and should be ashamed of yourself.

I'm going by exactly what you said - are you backing away from that claim now?

The Jews lived and worked the land for 4,500 years, in the middle they were conquered by the Roman empire and the Christian sect of Judaism was invented. The Christians grew into a world religion with teaching of hate against the Jews because they did not want their roots in Judaism to be well known. Then in the 7C a camel herder with a mental defect invented islam and proceeded to take over the world, starting with the Jews when they refused to accept him as the Messiah.

Ok...let's review this.

Multiple ancient people's lived in the area referred to as "Palestine"....

Canaan
The earliest references refer to "Canaan". At that time, the indigenous people of Canaan worshiped many gods but, chief among them, the goddess Astarte and her consort Baal. Women had some pretty decent rights... "Women could and did serve as Priestesses, could own land, enter into contracts and initiate divorce". That's just a sidenote, but surprising.

Then, a bunch of unruly slaves led by a madman who got his orders from talking burning bushes invaded Canaan, "subdued" the native population and conquered it's cities and in installed their newly invented monotheistic religion.

Palestine

Then, the Phillistines invaded (a term that still means course, vulgar and barbarian) and were partially subdued by the Israelites.
Then the Assyrians invaded, subdued the Phillistines completely, sacked and raped their way to glory and sold the inhabitants into slavery.
Eventually - Alexander the Great "liberated" Palestine and claimed it.
Then the Roman's claimed it.

Then along comes a zombie messiah - Christianity was invented and sweeps through the the region.

Then along comes a camel herder in the Arabian Peninsula who hears voices in a cave, invents Islam which then sweeps through the region. Muslims captured Jeruselum in 638 AD, not - as you say "in fact the arab muslims arrived between the late 1890's and the mid 1960's." Your claim isn't even remotely close.

In all these successive invasions, conquering and migrations - religions moved along with people and the indiginous inhabitants often converted to the new religions.

So who has the longevity in the area as it certainly isn't the Christian immigrants or the arab muslim immigrants. What you are saying is that you have more rights in America than the original inhabitants, while saying that the immigrants in Palestine also have more rights than the original inhabitants as well. The arab muslims ( clue is in their racial name ) and Christians don't have more rights to the land as they are mostly recent arrivals, in fact the arab muslims arrived between the late 1890's and the mid 1960's. This is shown by the UN having to create a new body because the arab muslims did not meet the criteria for refugee status having less than 2 years habitual residence in the area.

Stop right there. That is NOT what I'm saying. It is YOU saying that one group has "more rights" than another. They don't. None of them do. They are closely bound together and have been so thousands of years weathering a succession of conquering peoples...starting with the Israelites. The whole argument of rights determined by ancient history is idiotic and depends on a completely arbritary system of determining what is considered "long enough" to be "legitimate".

No you are saying that because you are anti Jew they have no rights to the land.

Sorry dude - I've never ever said that. If you are going to make that claim - provide a quote or admit you are lying. The indiginous people of Palestine include Jews as well as Christians, Muslims, Druze and others.

OK then how about we look at international law and rights to the land. In 1923 the Jews were granted sovereignty over 22% of Palestine, the remainder was granted to the arab muslims with a Saudi prince as their ruler. There has been no international law or treaty since giving any of the Jewish portion to the arab muslims. So by what legal right are you and them claiming sovereignty over Jewish land ?

That's another topic.

OK then how about we look at international law and rights to the land.​

Maybe someone should start a thread.

Will you accept the evidence of the international laws first ?

 

[theliq]

The indiginous people of Palestine included Jews, Christians and Muslims (descendents of native peoples who converted to Islam).

No, there were the Canaanites long before the Israelites,stole their land and slaughtered them all.....the Canaanites capital was Salem,now Jewrsalem

 

[theliq]

And through all of that there was a core group of people (Muslims, Christians, and Jews) who stayed and put down roots. Those are your Palestinians.

YES but the muslims and Christians are in the mionority as shown by the Catholic Encyclopaedia

Why should we believe a "Catholic Encyclopaedia"? The city of Jeruselum was the only region that had a Jewish majority population.

MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

Wrong it was the sanjak of Jerusalem that took in part or what is now Jordan, the upper part of what is Israel extending down to gaza. Just leaving the Negev as not counted in any census. It is an informed historical report drawn up by the Ottomans and the LoN that every member of team Palestine wants to debunk and cant without re-writing history.

Demographic history of Jerusalem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Muslim or Jewish "relative majority"

Between 1838 and 1876, conflicting estimates exist regarding whether Muslims or Jews constituted a "relative majority" (or plurality) in the city.


Writing in 1841, the biblical scholar Edward Robinson noted the conflicting demographic estimates regarding Jerusalem during the period, stating in reference to an 1839 estimate by Moses Montefiore: "As to the Jews, the enumeration in question was made out by themselves, in the expectation of receiving a certain amount of alms for every name returned. It is therefore obvious that they here had as strong a motive to exaggerate their number, as they often have in other circumstances to underrate it."[17] In 1843, Reverend F.C. Ewald, a Christian traveler visiting Jerusalem, reported an influx of 150 Jews from Algiers. He wrote that there were now a large number of Jews from the coast of Africa who were forming a separate congregation.[18]


Between 1856 and 1880, Jewish immigration to Palestine more than doubled, with the majority settling in Jerusalem.[19] The majority of these immigrants were Ashkenazi Jews from Eastern Europe, who subsisted on Halukka.[19]


In 1881–82, a group of Jews arrived from Yemen as a result of messianic fervor.[20][21] After living in the Old City for several years, they moved to the hills facing the City of David, where they lived in caves.[22] In 1884, the community, numbering 200, moved to new stone houses built for them by a Jewish charity.[23]​

This same Wikipedia source shows the fluxuating relative populations over several hundred years with the caution that boundaries for Jeruselum fluxuated over time.

According to this book: Israel Or Palestine? Is the Two-state Solution Already Dead? the population of Palestine, by the middle of the 19th century was 84% Muslim Arab, 10% Christian Arab, 1% Druze and 5% Jewish.

You're source seems to be the only one making this population claim - so either it's wrong, or it refers to only a portion of the Jeruselum sanjak - I don't know, I can't find original sources.

Did you see this in your link that shows the Jews were the majority


Jews as absolute or relative majority[edit]
Year Jews Muslims Christians Total Original Source As quoted in
1882 9,000 7,000 5,000 21,000 Wilson Kark and Oren-Nordheim, 2001[14]
1885 15,000 6,000 14,000 35,000 Goldmann Kark and Oren-Nordheim, 2001[14]
1893 >50% ? ? ~40,000 Albert Shaw, Writer Shaw, 1894 [38]
1896 28,112 8,560 8,748 45,420 Calendar of Palestine for the year 5656 Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1905 13,300 11,000 8,100 32,400 1905 Ottoman census (only Ottoman citizens) U.O.Schmelz[39]
1922 33,971 13,413 14,669 62,578 Census of Palestine (British) Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1931 51,200 19,900 19,300 90,053 Census of Palestine (British) Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1944 97,000 30,600 29,400 157,000 ? Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1967 195,700 54,963 12,646 263,307 Harrel, 1974




Shows that the Jews were the absolute majority apart from the period 1948-1967 when they were forcibly evicted and their property destroyed. ( timeline at the bottom of the wiki entry )

TOTAL GARBAGE

 

[theliq]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, in the context of the comment I made, this was not true. In fact, it is arguable if it is true now.

No indigenous citizen of the territory, that included Palestine, ever exercised sovereignty authority over that territory

It is the people who have sovereignty. Governments or states have sovereignty as an extension of the people. A government derives its legitimacy by the consent of the governed.

External interference that denies the exercise of sovereignty is a crime.

(COMMENT)

Your concept of governance only applies to democracies (of which there are none on the planet at the moment) In which the supreme power Is held completely by the people.

You are very confused. The people (you and me) do not exercise territorial sovereignty in any meaningful way. Under American Law, the Executive Branch exercises issues of territorial sovereignty. But it is not the same for all governments and it has not always been true. Throughout the second millennium, various sovereign powers have had varying forms of government. Clearly, the Middle East has experienced all kinds of government. Until the end of WWI, the territory formerly under the Mandate for Palestine, was subordinate to the Sultan. Clearly, your description was not generally understood under the rule of the Sultan who claimed almost full sovereignty in practical terms.

External Interference is a 20th Century concept. No Middle Eastern Government, within the Region under discussion, was established divorced of external interference; with the Possible exception of Saudi Arabia.

Most Respectfully,
R

Try the Isle of Man that has the only true democracy, and it meets once a year to discuss what is needed

And 1st continuous Democracy Pheo,did you know that the Isle of Mann and the Western Isles of Scotland were once part of Norway !!!!!steve

 

[RoccoR]

Phoenall, et al,

I stand corrected.

Try the Isle of Man that has the only true democracy, and it meets once a year to discuss what is needed

(COMMENT)

I always thought that the "Isle of Man" was one of the few British Protectorates still govern by the Royal Family.

I apologize.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[theliq]

Will this do



Palestinians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Legal historian Assaf Likhovski states that the prevailing view is that Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the 20th century.[33] "Palestinian" was used to refer to the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people by the Arabs of Palestine in a limited way until World War I.[

Syria Palestina continued to be used by historians and geographers and others to refer to the area between the Mediterranean sea and the Jordan river, as in the writings of Philo, Josephus and Pliny the Elder. After the Romans adopted the term as the official administrative name for the region in the 2nd century CE, "Palestine" as a stand-alone term came into widespread use, printed on coins, in inscriptions and even in rabbinic texts.[51] The Arabic word Filastin has been used to refer to the region since the time of the earliest medieval Arab geographers. It appears to have been used as an Arabic adjectival noun in the region since as early as the 7th century CE

Israeli historian Efraim Karsh takes the view that the Palestinian identity did not develop until after the 1967 war because the Palestinian exodus had fractured society so greatly that it was impossible to piece together a national identity. Between 1948 and 1967, the Jordanians and other Arab countries hosting Arab refugees from Palestine/Israel silenced any expression of Palestinian identity and occupied their lands until Israel's conquests of 1967. The formal annexation of the West Bank by Jordan in 1950, and the subsequent granting of its Palestinian residents Jordanian citizenship, further stunted the growth of a Palestinian national identity by integrating them into Jordanian society

Perfect - because that explains exactly where the disconnect is occuring. You are referring to the "Palestinian Identity" - not people. It's like "Israeli" is a national identity even though Israel wasn't reinvented until the 1940s. The people have been there all along and they weren't just Jews.

Nor were they Palestinians by their own admittance, they were Syrians or Christians. The term Palestinian referred to the Jews only and was a nasty word, just as ****, Juden, Zionist and other words are

You're really mixing things up here - you're mixing religious identification with ethnic and national identifications.

Whatever you choose to call them - the people we now call Palestinians have existed there in one form or another for thousands of years - the names change, the people absorb changes in culture and religion with succeeding groups in power - but they are still the same people who call themselves Palistinian.

If "Palestinian" was once a slur aimed at Jews - that doesn't mean all Palestinians were Jews from the beginning to 1960. It's nothing more than a semantics.

Not according to History that says in 1099 the arab muslims were run off the land, and only started to return in the mid 1800's. Then in 1890 they invaded in vast numbers on the promise of cultivated land and easy money

Not according to WHAT history?

I get tired of Zionists trying to re-write history,purely to agree with the Zionist Bullshit Mantra.....which we all know is a complete DECEIT

 

[Phoenall]

YES but the muslims and Christians are in the mionority as shown by the Catholic Encyclopaedia

Why should we believe a "Catholic Encyclopaedia"? The city of Jeruselum was the only region that had a Jewish majority population.

MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

Wrong it was the sanjak of Jerusalem that took in part or what is now Jordan, the upper part of what is Israel extending down to gaza. Just leaving the Negev as not counted in any census. It is an informed historical report drawn up by the Ottomans and the LoN that every member of team Palestine wants to debunk and cant without re-writing history.

Demographic history of Jerusalem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Muslim or Jewish "relative majority"

Between 1838 and 1876, conflicting estimates exist regarding whether Muslims or Jews constituted a "relative majority" (or plurality) in the city.


Writing in 1841, the biblical scholar Edward Robinson noted the conflicting demographic estimates regarding Jerusalem during the period, stating in reference to an 1839 estimate by Moses Montefiore: "As to the Jews, the enumeration in question was made out by themselves, in the expectation of receiving a certain amount of alms for every name returned. It is therefore obvious that they here had as strong a motive to exaggerate their number, as they often have in other circumstances to underrate it."[17] In 1843, Reverend F.C. Ewald, a Christian traveler visiting Jerusalem, reported an influx of 150 Jews from Algiers. He wrote that there were now a large number of Jews from the coast of Africa who were forming a separate congregation.[18]


Between 1856 and 1880, Jewish immigration to Palestine more than doubled, with the majority settling in Jerusalem.[19] The majority of these immigrants were Ashkenazi Jews from Eastern Europe, who subsisted on Halukka.[19]


In 1881–82, a group of Jews arrived from Yemen as a result of messianic fervor.[20][21] After living in the Old City for several years, they moved to the hills facing the City of David, where they lived in caves.[22] In 1884, the community, numbering 200, moved to new stone houses built for them by a Jewish charity.[23]​

This same Wikipedia source shows the fluxuating relative populations over several hundred years with the caution that boundaries for Jeruselum fluxuated over time.

According to this book: Israel Or Palestine? Is the Two-state Solution Already Dead? the population of Palestine, by the middle of the 19th century was 84% Muslim Arab, 10% Christian Arab, 1% Druze and 5% Jewish.

You're source seems to be the only one making this population claim - so either it's wrong, or it refers to only a portion of the Jeruselum sanjak - I don't know, I can't find original sources.

Did you see this in your link that shows the Jews were the majority


Jews as absolute or relative majority[edit]
Year Jews Muslims Christians Total Original Source As quoted in
1882 9,000 7,000 5,000 21,000 Wilson Kark and Oren-Nordheim, 2001[14]
1885 15,000 6,000 14,000 35,000 Goldmann Kark and Oren-Nordheim, 2001[14]
1893 >50% ? ? ~40,000 Albert Shaw, Writer Shaw, 1894 [38]
1896 28,112 8,560 8,748 45,420 Calendar of Palestine for the year 5656 Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1905 13,300 11,000 8,100 32,400 1905 Ottoman census (only Ottoman citizens) U.O.Schmelz[39]
1922 33,971 13,413 14,669 62,578 Census of Palestine (British) Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1931 51,200 19,900 19,300 90,053 Census of Palestine (British) Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1944 97,000 30,600 29,400 157,000 ? Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1967 195,700 54,963 12,646 263,307 Harrel, 1974




Shows that the Jews were the absolute majority apart from the period 1948-1967 when they were forcibly evicted and their property destroyed. ( timeline at the bottom of the wiki entry )

TOTAL GARBAGE

No facts that can be easily substantiated, unlike your claims that you cant even find a link to support them

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, in the context of the comment I made, this was not true. In fact, it is arguable if it is true now.

No indigenous citizen of the territory, that included Palestine, ever exercised sovereignty authority over that territory

It is the people who have sovereignty. Governments or states have sovereignty as an extension of the people. A government derives its legitimacy by the consent of the governed.

External interference that denies the exercise of sovereignty is a crime.

(COMMENT)

Your concept of governance only applies to democracies (of which there are none on the planet at the moment) In which the supreme power Is held completely by the people.

You are very confused. The people (you and me) do not exercise territorial sovereignty in any meaningful way. Under American Law, the Executive Branch exercises issues of territorial sovereignty. But it is not the same for all governments and it has not always been true. Throughout the second millennium, various sovereign powers have had varying forms of government. Clearly, the Middle East has experienced all kinds of government. Until the end of WWI, the territory formerly under the Mandate for Palestine, was subordinate to the Sultan. Clearly, your description was not generally understood under the rule of the Sultan who claimed almost full sovereignty in practical terms.

External Interference is a 20th Century concept. No Middle Eastern Government, within the Region under discussion, was established divorced of external interference; with the Possible exception of Saudi Arabia.

Most Respectfully,
R

Try the Isle of Man that has the only true democracy, and it meets once a year to discuss what is needed

And 1st continuous Democracy Pheo,did you know that the Isle of Mann and the Western Isles of Scotland were once part of Norway !!!!!steve

Were they indeed, how about a link, or are you now called linkless liq

 

[Phoenall]

Perfect - because that explains exactly where the disconnect is occuring. You are referring to the "Palestinian Identity" - not people. It's like "Israeli" is a national identity even though Israel wasn't reinvented until the 1940s. The people have been there all along and they weren't just Jews.

Nor were they Palestinians by their own admittance, they were Syrians or Christians. The term Palestinian referred to the Jews only and was a nasty word, just as ****, Juden, Zionist and other words are

You're really mixing things up here - you're mixing religious identification with ethnic and national identifications.

Whatever you choose to call them - the people we now call Palestinians have existed there in one form or another for thousands of years - the names change, the people absorb changes in culture and religion with succeeding groups in power - but they are still the same people who call themselves Palistinian.

If "Palestinian" was once a slur aimed at Jews - that doesn't mean all Palestinians were Jews from the beginning to 1960. It's nothing more than a semantics.

Not according to History that says in 1099 the arab muslims were run off the land, and only started to return in the mid 1800's. Then in 1890 they invaded in vast numbers on the promise of cultivated land and easy money

Not according to WHAT history?

I get tired of Zionists trying to re-write history,purely to agree with the Zionist Bullshit Mantra.....which we all know is a complete DECEIT

How about an example then linkless liq ?

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

The Isle of Man is not the topic of this thread.

 

[Phoenall]

The Isle of Man is not the topic of this thread.

It was a comparison

 

[Coyote]

And through all of that there was a core group of people (Muslims, Christians, and Jews) who stayed and put down roots. Those are your Palestinians.

YES but the muslims and Christians are in the mionority as shown by the Catholic Encyclopaedia

Why should we believe a "Catholic Encyclopaedia"? The city of Jeruselum was the only region that had a Jewish majority population.

MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

Wrong it was the sanjak of Jerusalem that took in part or what is now Jordan, the upper part of what is Israel extending down to gaza. Just leaving the Negev as not counted in any census. It is an informed historical report drawn up by the Ottomans and the LoN that every member of team Palestine wants to debunk and cant without re-writing history.

Demographic history of Jerusalem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Muslim or Jewish "relative majority"

Between 1838 and 1876, conflicting estimates exist regarding whether Muslims or Jews constituted a "relative majority" (or plurality) in the city.


Writing in 1841, the biblical scholar Edward Robinson noted the conflicting demographic estimates regarding Jerusalem during the period, stating in reference to an 1839 estimate by Moses Montefiore: "As to the Jews, the enumeration in question was made out by themselves, in the expectation of receiving a certain amount of alms for every name returned. It is therefore obvious that they here had as strong a motive to exaggerate their number, as they often have in other circumstances to underrate it."[17] In 1843, Reverend F.C. Ewald, a Christian traveler visiting Jerusalem, reported an influx of 150 Jews from Algiers. He wrote that there were now a large number of Jews from the coast of Africa who were forming a separate congregation.[18]


Between 1856 and 1880, Jewish immigration to Palestine more than doubled, with the majority settling in Jerusalem.[19] The majority of these immigrants were Ashkenazi Jews from Eastern Europe, who subsisted on Halukka.[19]


In 1881–82, a group of Jews arrived from Yemen as a result of messianic fervor.[20][21] After living in the Old City for several years, they moved to the hills facing the City of David, where they lived in caves.[22] In 1884, the community, numbering 200, moved to new stone houses built for them by a Jewish charity.[23]​

This same Wikipedia source shows the fluxuating relative populations over several hundred years with the caution that boundaries for Jeruselum fluxuated over time.

According to this book: Israel Or Palestine? Is the Two-state Solution Already Dead? the population of Palestine, by the middle of the 19th century was 84% Muslim Arab, 10% Christian Arab, 1% Druze and 5% Jewish.

You're source seems to be the only one making this population claim - so either it's wrong, or it refers to only a portion of the Jeruselum sanjak - I don't know, I can't find original sources.

Did you see this in your link that shows the Jews were the majority


Jews as absolute or relative majority[edit]
Year Jews Muslims Christians Total Original Source As quoted in
1882 9,000 7,000 5,000 21,000 Wilson Kark and Oren-Nordheim, 2001[14]
1885 15,000 6,000 14,000 35,000 Goldmann Kark and Oren-Nordheim, 2001[14]
1893 >50% ? ? ~40,000 Albert Shaw, Writer Shaw, 1894 [38]
1896 28,112 8,560 8,748 45,420 Calendar of Palestine for the year 5656 Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1905 13,300 11,000 8,100 32,400 1905 Ottoman census (only Ottoman citizens) U.O.Schmelz[39]
1922 33,971 13,413 14,669 62,578 Census of Palestine (British) Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1931 51,200 19,900 19,300 90,053 Census of Palestine (British) Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1944 97,000 30,600 29,400 157,000 ? Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1967 195,700 54,963 12,646 263,307 Harrel, 1974




Shows that the Jews were the absolute majority apart from the period 1948-1967 when they were forcibly evicted and their property destroyed. ( timeline at the bottom of the wiki entry )

No, I think YOU missed something. They were a majority (in Jeruselem) from 1844-46, when Zionist immigration began to surge (there is no data on non-jewish populations for 1849-50); they were again a majority in 1853, 1862-66, and then again in 1869, and then from 1882 on. From 1130 to 1844, over 700 years - they were a minority in what census data is available.

 

[theliq]

Why should we believe a "Catholic Encyclopaedia"? The city of Jeruselum was the only region that had a Jewish majority population.

MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

Wrong it was the sanjak of Jerusalem that took in part or what is now Jordan, the upper part of what is Israel extending down to gaza. Just leaving the Negev as not counted in any census. It is an informed historical report drawn up by the Ottomans and the LoN that every member of team Palestine wants to debunk and cant without re-writing history.

Demographic history of Jerusalem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Muslim or Jewish "relative majority"

Between 1838 and 1876, conflicting estimates exist regarding whether Muslims or Jews constituted a "relative majority" (or plurality) in the city.


Writing in 1841, the biblical scholar Edward Robinson noted the conflicting demographic estimates regarding Jerusalem during the period, stating in reference to an 1839 estimate by Moses Montefiore: "As to the Jews, the enumeration in question was made out by themselves, in the expectation of receiving a certain amount of alms for every name returned. It is therefore obvious that they here had as strong a motive to exaggerate their number, as they often have in other circumstances to underrate it."[17] In 1843, Reverend F.C. Ewald, a Christian traveler visiting Jerusalem, reported an influx of 150 Jews from Algiers. He wrote that there were now a large number of Jews from the coast of Africa who were forming a separate congregation.[18]


Between 1856 and 1880, Jewish immigration to Palestine more than doubled, with the majority settling in Jerusalem.[19] The majority of these immigrants were Ashkenazi Jews from Eastern Europe, who subsisted on Halukka.[19]


In 1881–82, a group of Jews arrived from Yemen as a result of messianic fervor.[20][21] After living in the Old City for several years, they moved to the hills facing the City of David, where they lived in caves.[22] In 1884, the community, numbering 200, moved to new stone houses built for them by a Jewish charity.[23]​

This same Wikipedia source shows the fluxuating relative populations over several hundred years with the caution that boundaries for Jeruselum fluxuated over time.

According to this book: Israel Or Palestine? Is the Two-state Solution Already Dead? the population of Palestine, by the middle of the 19th century was 84% Muslim Arab, 10% Christian Arab, 1% Druze and 5% Jewish.

You're source seems to be the only one making this population claim - so either it's wrong, or it refers to only a portion of the Jeruselum sanjak - I don't know, I can't find original sources.

Did you see this in your link that shows the Jews were the majority


Jews as absolute or relative majority[edit]
Year Jews Muslims Christians Total Original Source As quoted in
1882 9,000 7,000 5,000 21,000 Wilson Kark and Oren-Nordheim, 2001[14]
1885 15,000 6,000 14,000 35,000 Goldmann Kark and Oren-Nordheim, 2001[14]
1893 >50% ? ? ~40,000 Albert Shaw, Writer Shaw, 1894 [38]
1896 28,112 8,560 8,748 45,420 Calendar of Palestine for the year 5656 Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1905 13,300 11,000 8,100 32,400 1905 Ottoman census (only Ottoman citizens) U.O.Schmelz[39]
1922 33,971 13,413 14,669 62,578 Census of Palestine (British) Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1931 51,200 19,900 19,300 90,053 Census of Palestine (British) Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1944 97,000 30,600 29,400 157,000 ? Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1967 195,700 54,963 12,646 263,307 Harrel, 1974




Shows that the Jews were the absolute majority apart from the period 1948-1967 when they were forcibly evicted and their property destroyed. ( timeline at the bottom of the wiki entry )

TOTAL GARBAGE

No facts that can be easily substantiated, unlike your claims that you cant even find a link to support them

The Isle of Man is not the topic of this thread.

It was a comparison

I disagree with Pheo

 

[montelatici]

The Ottoman census of 1905 counted more Muslims and Christians in Jerusalem than Jews. The Ottoman census is the only relatively accurate data available and is reported herein. Note: The Ottoman census counted citizens.

http://badil.org/phocadownload/Badil_docs/publications/Jerusalem1948-CHAP1.PDF

 

[Phoenall]

YES but the muslims and Christians are in the mionority as shown by the Catholic Encyclopaedia

Why should we believe a "Catholic Encyclopaedia"? The city of Jeruselum was the only region that had a Jewish majority population.

MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

Wrong it was the sanjak of Jerusalem that took in part or what is now Jordan, the upper part of what is Israel extending down to gaza. Just leaving the Negev as not counted in any census. It is an informed historical report drawn up by the Ottomans and the LoN that every member of team Palestine wants to debunk and cant without re-writing history.

Demographic history of Jerusalem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Muslim or Jewish "relative majority"

Between 1838 and 1876, conflicting estimates exist regarding whether Muslims or Jews constituted a "relative majority" (or plurality) in the city.


Writing in 1841, the biblical scholar Edward Robinson noted the conflicting demographic estimates regarding Jerusalem during the period, stating in reference to an 1839 estimate by Moses Montefiore: "As to the Jews, the enumeration in question was made out by themselves, in the expectation of receiving a certain amount of alms for every name returned. It is therefore obvious that they here had as strong a motive to exaggerate their number, as they often have in other circumstances to underrate it."[17] In 1843, Reverend F.C. Ewald, a Christian traveler visiting Jerusalem, reported an influx of 150 Jews from Algiers. He wrote that there were now a large number of Jews from the coast of Africa who were forming a separate congregation.[18]


Between 1856 and 1880, Jewish immigration to Palestine more than doubled, with the majority settling in Jerusalem.[19] The majority of these immigrants were Ashkenazi Jews from Eastern Europe, who subsisted on Halukka.[19]


In 1881–82, a group of Jews arrived from Yemen as a result of messianic fervor.[20][21] After living in the Old City for several years, they moved to the hills facing the City of David, where they lived in caves.[22] In 1884, the community, numbering 200, moved to new stone houses built for them by a Jewish charity.[23]​

This same Wikipedia source shows the fluxuating relative populations over several hundred years with the caution that boundaries for Jeruselum fluxuated over time.

According to this book: Israel Or Palestine? Is the Two-state Solution Already Dead? the population of Palestine, by the middle of the 19th century was 84% Muslim Arab, 10% Christian Arab, 1% Druze and 5% Jewish.

You're source seems to be the only one making this population claim - so either it's wrong, or it refers to only a portion of the Jeruselum sanjak - I don't know, I can't find original sources.

Did you see this in your link that shows the Jews were the majority


Jews as absolute or relative majority[edit]
Year Jews Muslims Christians Total Original Source As quoted in
1882 9,000 7,000 5,000 21,000 Wilson Kark and Oren-Nordheim, 2001[14]
1885 15,000 6,000 14,000 35,000 Goldmann Kark and Oren-Nordheim, 2001[14]
1893 >50% ? ? ~40,000 Albert Shaw, Writer Shaw, 1894 [38]
1896 28,112 8,560 8,748 45,420 Calendar of Palestine for the year 5656 Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1905 13,300 11,000 8,100 32,400 1905 Ottoman census (only Ottoman citizens) U.O.Schmelz[39]
1922 33,971 13,413 14,669 62,578 Census of Palestine (British) Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1931 51,200 19,900 19,300 90,053 Census of Palestine (British) Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1944 97,000 30,600 29,400 157,000 ? Harrel and Stendel, 1974
1967 195,700 54,963 12,646 263,307 Harrel, 1974




Shows that the Jews were the absolute majority apart from the period 1948-1967 when they were forcibly evicted and their property destroyed. ( timeline at the bottom of the wiki entry )

No, I think YOU missed something. They were a majority (in Jeruselem) from 1844-46, when Zionist immigration began to surge (there is no data on non-jewish populations for 1849-50); they were again a majority in 1853, 1862-66, and then again in 1869, and then from 1882 on. From 1130 to 1844, over 700 years - they were a minority in what census data is available.

Try again as the above shows that the Jews according to Ottoman official census data were the Majority in the sanjak oc Jerusalem from 1882 until they were expelled by the Palestinians in 1949. Yiu just cant stand seeing the evidence from an Islamic source proving you wrong can you

 

[Phoenall]

The Ottoman census of 1905 counted more Muslims and Christians in Jerusalem than Jews. The Ottoman census is the only relatively accurate data available and is reported herein. Note: The Ottoman census counted citizens.

http://badil.org/phocadownload/Badil_docs/publications/Jerusalem1948-CHAP1.PDF

But still puts the Jews as the majority single group, nice try wont fly counting the Christians as arab muslims

 

[Phoenall]

The Ottoman census of 1905 counted more Muslims and Christians in Jerusalem than Jews. The Ottoman census is the only relatively accurate data available and is reported herein. Note: The Ottoman census counted citizens.

http://badil.org/phocadownload/Badil_docs/publications/Jerusalem1948-CHAP1.PDF

But still puts the Jews as the majority single group, nice try wont fly counting the Christians as arab muslims