Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

[Grumblenuts]

I think you're trying a little too hard, seally, your frustration making you sound like a bully. Don't ruin your own topic by trying to force agreement, not to mention saying "Trust me" unless plainly sarcastically

 

[Oz and the Orchestra]

I do not however go along with the so called evolutionists Universe by accident theory.

That doesn't make any sense. The Theory of Evolution only describes how the diversity of species we observe today and in the fossil record arose from a single-celled, common ancestor. (Evolution itself is a fact)

"Accident"

This also does not make sense. Accidents don't happen in deterministic systems. When water approaches a waterfall, it doesn't then fall over the waterfall "by accident". The earth doesn't revolve about the sun "by accident".

As I've already said - I DO NOT believe in a universe by accident!

Okay, but neither does anyone else. Deterministic events are not accidents.

For reference:

determinism

NOUN
Philosophy

• The doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.
  ‘Such a view reconciles free will not with determinism but with the highly plausible thesis of universal event causation.’

I don't think anyone here is arguing for absolute determinism, "universal event causation," or against at least some free will. I think Fort Fun is arguing that whether any believe there was a single, original, deterministic "creation event" or not, no one has seriously been arguing that "evolution" was involved. Perhaps us returning that term or "evolve" in sarcastic response may have led to some confusion.

I certainly believe evolution was involved - a grand design,' just not by an omnipotent monotheistic superman.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Okay, I stand corrected, I guess. My point was really that the original so-called "Big Bang" event is logically unrelatable to Darwin's theory.

 

[Meriweather]

It's a realization that us atheists have when contemplating if your religion or any other religion is true. You christians claim that when your earthly body expires that your sour lives on for all eternity and never gets sick, sad or mad. Where did I get this idea? Christians showed me in the bible where it says you are gods after you die.

Of course it didn't say you will be gods when you die because the story says there is only one god. Only problem is you all become gods when you die. You move on to a rhelm where you never get sick old or angry. If that's not a god what is? Maybe you aren't GOD but you are a god. Small g.

So now I know what some atheists believe about what Christians believe. As a Christian of the Catholic denomination, I can assure these atheists it is not what Christians believe. It is always good to be advised about what the uninformed are saying, even when there is nothing that can be done about it. Anyway, thank you.

 

[Meriweather]

Think about it. If your religion ultimately can't prove all the impossible things it claims then of course this religion is going to reward people who believe the unbelievable. Of course it would say , "blessed are those who believe without seeing"

Obviously I am not speaking clearly. There is no belief that religion is going to reward people who believe the unbelievable. Jesus did not teach The Way to eternal life is to believe that creation occurred in six twenty-four days or that a flood covered the planet.

The Way is love and obedience to God and His laws, and love of our fellow man. The Way is learning to know God, love Him, and serve Him. The Way is eternal which means that our eternity on The Way will continue to be about knowing, loving, and serving God (including our fellow man).
How do we find this Way? With faith the size of a mustard seed, or in other words, simple trust that this Way of loving God and loving our fellow man leads to both happiness and eternal life. If we are suspicious of this way, and believe that turning from God and hating Him and our fellow man will bring greater reward and happiness, then scripture says we will not see God. This makes sense because who would want to spend their eternity with a Being they loathe and people they cannot stand.

 

[Meriweather]

"blessed are those who believe without seeing"

Do you truly believe that a person actually needs to see God before deciding to love their fellow man?

Why can't they simply observe what takes place in their own lives when they love one another and keep God's Law?

 

[buttercup]

Where you will be a Demi god

Not that I have ever heard. Out of curiosity, where did you pick up that notion?

It's a realization that us atheists have when contemplating if your religion or any other religion is true. You christians claim that when your earthly body expires that your sour lives on for all eternity and never gets sick, sad or mad. Where did I get this idea? Christians showed me in the bible where it says you are gods after you die.

Of course it didn't say you will be gods when you die because the story says there is only one god. Only problem is you all become gods when you die. You move on to a rhelm where you never get sick old or angry. If that's not a god what is? Maybe you aren't GOD but you are a god. Small g.

I don't know where you heard that (about becoming "gods" after we die) but that is simply incorrect. It sounds like the confusion is coming from what type of body we will have after this life. It's true according to the bible that we will have a very different type of "body," one that imperishable. But it does NOT teach that we will be "gods."

As a matter of fact, if anything that is a New Age type of view. Not a Christian one.

 

[BreezeWood]

Okay, I stand corrected, I guess. My point was really that the original so-called "Big Bang" event is logically unrelatable to Darwin's theory.

.
not necessarily the theory but how could actual evolution and the BB not be related similarly to the grand design.

 

[Meriweather]

So you went through a period where you doubted the jesus myth? It doesn't matter because ultimately you decided to put aside logic reason and facts and instead you have completely cherry picked from Christianity. What is unbelievable, you say it's just an allegory. What you can explain away with Allegories., you do. And what you can't explain,. you say is just a story meant to derive a message. Trust me. I know more about what you are doing than you do. you're doing it because you've been programmed to do it. I have seen through your bs and realize your religion is no more real than any of the other ones and we all know all the others are man made up right?

Isaiah once wrote, Listen carefully but you will not understand; look intently, but you will not see.

You are so convinced that you know me and my life better than I know either myself of my life, you cannot conceive the alternate. Back in the 1970s, there was a big push by the Evangelicals for everyone to take everything in the Bible literally. That is a foreign concept to most of us Catholics, and many of us were probably guilty of grinning and rolling our eyes prior to simply shrugging it off. Back then, I didn't think it would hurt anything if people wanted to take the Bible literally. It never occurred to me there would be those of you who thought you absolutely had to take it literally and that would end up hurting you. I certainly never thought it would blind anyone. I was wrong.

You see, my friend, I was never "programmed". Unlike you, I did a lot of research, much of it age old rabbinical commentary, especially when studying the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. I am completely at ease of having several different possibilities at hand when there is something that cannot be known for certain--i.e., Jesus walking on water. I gave miracles less time than teachings. I mean, it was great when someone gained their sight or were healed of leprosy, but those events had absolutely no impact on my life. I had enough on my plate trying to understand and correctly learn and live the Beatitudes. Now those did have great impact on my life.

 

[BreezeWood]

Where you will be a Demi god

Not that I have ever heard. Out of curiosity, where did you pick up that notion?

It's a realization that us atheists have when contemplating if your religion or any other religion is true. You christians claim that when your earthly body expires that your sour lives on for all eternity and never gets sick, sad or mad. Where did I get this idea? Christians showed me in the bible where it says you are gods after you die.

Of course it didn't say you will be gods when you die because the story says there is only one god. Only problem is you all become gods when you die. You move on to a rhelm where you never get sick old or angry. If that's not a god what is? Maybe you aren't GOD but you are a god. Small g.

I don't know where you heard that (about becoming "gods" after we die) but that is simply incorrect. It sounds like the confusion is coming from what type of body we will have after this life. It's true according to the bible that we will have a very different type of "body," one that imperishable. But it does NOT teach that we will be "gods."

As a matter of fact, if anything that is a New Age type of view. Not a Christian one.

and keep God's Law?

As a matter of fact, if anything that is a New Age type of view. Not a Christian one.

.
the confusion is not just theirs -

there is no christian view, that religion is based on forgeries and fallacies made up in the 4th century.

a new age view would simply be a resolution to discover anew what is lost with all three desert religions.

 

[Meriweather]

realize your religion is no more real than any of the other ones and we all know all the others are man made up right?

Already asked and answered. As I noted before who other than man practices religion. If you believe we got it from a giraffe, then you are one up on me. Meanwhile, it was humans that taught me math, language arts, science, religion and history. No wolves.

I have no reason to believe that people of other faiths and cultures were taught their religious beliefs by lions and tigers and bears (oh, my!) either. We humans hand down what we have learned and experienced.

Your atheism is "man-made" as well, and you, as a man, are as willing to share your experiences of being an atheist as a person of faith is willing to share his/her experiences. We see everything through our eyes, or the eyes of other humans. I have tried to see the world through the eyes of my parakeets and chinchillas--an undertaking that is nearly impossible. How much more impossible is it for us to see the world through the eyes of a Being where the difference between us is infinitely more vast than than between me and a chinchilla.

 

[Meriweather]

seally, your frustration making you sound like a bully.

Sealybobo is no bully. There is a great deal of difference between a bully and a person who is passionate about his/her own beliefs. I am sorry, and do apologize, if he is in fact frustrated and I am the cause of it.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Open Minded Agnostic Atheist
sealybobo, et al,

BLUF: Well there are three generalized perspectives to start with.

◈ The Supreme Being is perfect.​

✦ Omniscient,​

✦ Omnipotent,​

✦ Omnipresent,​

​

◈ The Supreme Being is less than perfect (imperfect).​

✦ Is capable of perfection in limited area.​

✦ Is not capable of perfection.​

✦ Is no Supreme Being and the Omnipowers are shared with other Deities.​

​

◈ There is:​

✦ No Deity is capable of total perfection.​

✦ Deities have varying strengths in power.​

✦ Deities have a range of supernatural abilities.​

​

And these are only the first tiers of the speculation tree.

The rest is too unclear to even guess and seems like self-distraction anyway. Yes, of course it makes some sense. No, it does not make complete sense. What you're trying to ultimately say remains unclear. You appear to be arguing that any Supreme Being is perfect by definition (specification?). So everything they do can be presumed intentional, including whatever we lowly humans may consider imperfections. First problem I see with that is presuming us capable of understanding perfection in the first place. Appears a straw man ahead of a confused horse with a whip sort of thing

(COMMENT)

Without writing an entire book, or simulated Grade A Notes, explaining all the options in less than detail does get confusing. But by the same token,

The first conflict Tree, first-tier:

◈ Humanity cannot know "perfection" in any of it's near infinite forms.​

​

◈ To attempt to assign characteristics to a deity or Supreme Being is impossible.​

Much like • The Notory Art of Solomon • belief in the existence of the Supreme Being (or entity empowered by the Supreme Being) opens the door to the potential validity of other types of supernatural belief structures (Wicca, Alchemy, Druzism, etc). Which are just as possible as any other belief structure.

No human can claim to understand the intention of the Supreme Being. But we can tell from some of the descriptive qualities of the Abrahamic Deity are less than admirable. We can tell from the activities of man that all people are not peaceful.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Grumblenuts]

seally, your frustration making you sound like a bully.

Sealybobo is no bully. There is a great deal of difference between a bully and a person who is passionate about his/her own beliefs. I am sorry, and do apologize, if he is in fact frustrated and I am the cause of it.

There's obviously a world of difference, which I'm quite confident you easily discern, between saying someone's beginning to sound like a bully and saying they're being a bully. Therefore, it follows that you carefully trimmed off as much of the context as possible to make it look like I might have actually asserted the latter. Again, very clever!
For everyone else, I'll repeat what I really said:

I think you're trying a little too hard, seally, your frustration making you sound like a bully.

The last part clearly only intended to elaborate upon the first which was the real point. It's now more evident than ever to me that Sealybobo has had you pegged as a sneaky little fraud all along. This all just being a little game to you. Something you regularly engage in as though you were on a college team debating another for the academic rewards and glory or something. Seems you've never had to suffer a thing as a result of choosing your "faith" so presume atheists the same and have no clue as to why they might soon tire your stupid, put upon, innocent flower act.

Please pardon the interruption, Sealy. Fire at will..

 

[Grumblenuts]

Okay, I stand corrected, I guess. My point was really that the original so-called "Big Bang" event is logically unrelatable to Darwin's theory.

.
not necessarily the theory but how could actual evolution and the BB not be related similarly to the grand design.

Your mileage is, of course, free to vary however you like. But for me at least, evolution, theory or otherwise, connotes changes in species that occur over long periods of time or generations as a result of natural selection. It's, in fact, defined as such, okay? Nothing about the "Big Bang" event suggests life for a long, long time. By contrast, according to Alexa, "the grand design" is a book by Stephen Halking and someone else discussing the history of scientific knowledge about the universe. I doubt that's what you meant to discuss, but it shows how vague your statement was. Obviously atheists don't use any terms to describe plans supposedly made by god(s) since there are presumed none until convincing evidence is found to think otherwise. "Design theory" has always just struck me as dim bulb bait. Fodder for the most gullible only.

 

[zaangalewa]

You should by the way answer much more slowly before you say something. Your time scheme fits not with my time scheme. Wait with your answers until I have finished my answers - and do not answer while I still "speak". I have a heavy tongue.

Ha.... Ha.... Ha. Slow enough now?
Yes, that's why I suggested a bag of dicks - to match that "heavy tongue."

Soon back
Godot

 

[ding]

You can't be an agnostic atheist.

I would say you are an agnostic secularist

• Atheist - There is no god.
• Nihilistic - Life has no meaning.
• Secular - Lack of religion.
• Agnostic - There may or may not be a god, but open to know more.
• Gnostic - Belief that the God (or gods) we worship are in fact evil tricksters and that a secret knowledge is preventing us from the true God.
• Animistic - Belief that all things contain spirits.
• Deist - There is a God who created life, but just watches and does not intervene.
• Theist - Belief in a higher power and at least one god.
• Polytheist - Belief in more than one god.
• Monotheist -believing in a single God - ie. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
• Apostate - A person who leaves a religion.
• Misotheist - A person that hates God or the Gods.
• Dustheism - Belief that God or the Gods are not totally good.
• Macioism - Belief that God is a Demiurge and wrathful, malicious evil creator. Similar to Gnostic.
• Euthesim - Belief in a totally good God.

What do you mean life has meaning? What is the meaning? What is our purpose? I think we could master the universe if we weren’t so primitive. Still warring with each other rather than working as one planet to get to mars and mine the meteor belt. Then build a ship the size of a planet that can also survive interstellar travel. Then we might have a purpose.

If we stay on this Rock eventually we will die of some natural cause. The planet will still have other creatures who survive this mass global extinction but even they too will die when the water goes or the sun burns out. If we go with the planet, what was our purpose?

We are a way for the universe to know itself. Amazing.

There is no purpose to life.

And if the universe is trying to know itself through humans it could do better since we only have an understanding of about 5% of it.

Sure there is... to become the best version of yourself and to pass it on. There's your meaning.

Simply put, evolution is when anything moves from a less advanced state to a more advanced state; a less complex state to a more complex state. Since the beginning of time matter has evolved and will continue to do so. Your purpose, your meaning in life is to evolve in consciousness and pass it on to the next generation.

That's your meaning.

You have no business telling my what mine is.

According to you, you don’t have one, right?

But according to Darwin the meaning of life is to pass down functional advantage to the next generation.

No not really

I know that what I do here while I'm alive will have little effect in the grand scheme of things.

And again that's Darwin and he has no more right to tell me what my purpose is than you do.

The human race has been here for but a blink in cosmological time and less than a minute in the earth's geological time.

We will be gone in but another few blinks of time as far as the cosmos is concerned.

Nothing anyone has ever done or will ever do will matter.

Yep, you're a nihilist alright.

As i said.

You have a fatalistic attitude, my friend.

 

[Blues Man]

You can't be an agnostic atheist.

I would say you are an agnostic secularist

• Atheist - There is no god.
• Nihilistic - Life has no meaning.
• Secular - Lack of religion.
• Agnostic - There may or may not be a god, but open to know more.
• Gnostic - Belief that the God (or gods) we worship are in fact evil tricksters and that a secret knowledge is preventing us from the true God.
• Animistic - Belief that all things contain spirits.
• Deist - There is a God who created life, but just watches and does not intervene.
• Theist - Belief in a higher power and at least one god.
• Polytheist - Belief in more than one god.
• Monotheist -believing in a single God - ie. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
• Apostate - A person who leaves a religion.
• Misotheist - A person that hates God or the Gods.
• Dustheism - Belief that God or the Gods are not totally good.
• Macioism - Belief that God is a Demiurge and wrathful, malicious evil creator. Similar to Gnostic.
• Euthesim - Belief in a totally good God.

What do you mean life has meaning? What is the meaning? What is our purpose? I think we could master the universe if we weren’t so primitive. Still warring with each other rather than working as one planet to get to mars and mine the meteor belt. Then build a ship the size of a planet that can also survive interstellar travel. Then we might have a purpose.

If we stay on this Rock eventually we will die of some natural cause. The planet will still have other creatures who survive this mass global extinction but even they too will die when the water goes or the sun burns out. If we go with the planet, what was our purpose?

We are a way for the universe to know itself. Amazing.

There is no purpose to life.

And if the universe is trying to know itself through humans it could do better since we only have an understanding of about 5% of it.

Sure there is... to become the best version of yourself and to pass it on. There's your meaning.

Simply put, evolution is when anything moves from a less advanced state to a more advanced state; a less complex state to a more complex state. Since the beginning of time matter has evolved and will continue to do so. Your purpose, your meaning in life is to evolve in consciousness and pass it on to the next generation.

That's your meaning.

You have no business telling my what mine is.

According to you, you don’t have one, right?

But according to Darwin the meaning of life is to pass down functional advantage to the next generation.

No not really

I know that what I do here while I'm alive will have little effect in the grand scheme of things.

And again that's Darwin and he has no more right to tell me what my purpose is than you do.

The human race has been here for but a blink in cosmological time and less than a minute in the earth's geological time.

We will be gone in but another few blinks of time as far as the cosmos is concerned.

Nothing anyone has ever done or will ever do will matter.

Yep, you're a nihilist alright.

As i said.

You have a fatalistic attitude, my friend.

I know.

Better a realist than some naive idealistic Pollyanna

 

[ding]

You can't be an agnostic atheist.

I would say you are an agnostic secularist

• Atheist - There is no god.
• Nihilistic - Life has no meaning.
• Secular - Lack of religion.
• Agnostic - There may or may not be a god, but open to know more.
• Gnostic - Belief that the God (or gods) we worship are in fact evil tricksters and that a secret knowledge is preventing us from the true God.
• Animistic - Belief that all things contain spirits.
• Deist - There is a God who created life, but just watches and does not intervene.
• Theist - Belief in a higher power and at least one god.
• Polytheist - Belief in more than one god.
• Monotheist -believing in a single God - ie. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
• Apostate - A person who leaves a religion.
• Misotheist - A person that hates God or the Gods.
• Dustheism - Belief that God or the Gods are not totally good.
• Macioism - Belief that God is a Demiurge and wrathful, malicious evil creator. Similar to Gnostic.
• Euthesim - Belief in a totally good God.

What do you mean life has meaning? What is the meaning? What is our purpose? I think we could master the universe if we weren’t so primitive. Still warring with each other rather than working as one planet to get to mars and mine the meteor belt. Then build a ship the size of a planet that can also survive interstellar travel. Then we might have a purpose.

If we stay on this Rock eventually we will die of some natural cause. The planet will still have other creatures who survive this mass global extinction but even they too will die when the water goes or the sun burns out. If we go with the planet, what was our purpose?

We are a way for the universe to know itself. Amazing.

There is no purpose to life.

And if the universe is trying to know itself through humans it could do better since we only have an understanding of about 5% of it.

Sure there is... to become the best version of yourself and to pass it on. There's your meaning.

Simply put, evolution is when anything moves from a less advanced state to a more advanced state; a less complex state to a more complex state. Since the beginning of time matter has evolved and will continue to do so. Your purpose, your meaning in life is to evolve in consciousness and pass it on to the next generation.

That's your meaning.

You have no business telling my what mine is.

According to you, you don’t have one, right?

But according to Darwin the meaning of life is to pass down functional advantage to the next generation.

No not really

I know that what I do here while I'm alive will have little effect in the grand scheme of things.

And again that's Darwin and he has no more right to tell me what my purpose is than you do.

The human race has been here for but a blink in cosmological time and less than a minute in the earth's geological time.

We will be gone in but another few blinks of time as far as the cosmos is concerned.

Nothing anyone has ever done or will ever do will matter.

Yep, you're a nihilist alright.

As i said.

You have a fatalistic attitude, my friend.

I know.

Better a realist than some naive idealistic Pollyanna

No. A realist isn't a fatalist. A realist does not believe that life is without meaning. A realists accepts situations as they are and deals with them. Whereas a fatalist believes nothing matters (i.e. life is without meaning).

realist: a person who accepts a situation as it is and is prepared to deal with it accordingly.

fatalist: a person who believes all events are predetermined and therefore inevitable.

nihilist: a person who believes that life is meaningless.

 

[ding]

atheists are fatalists because they can't see how good can come from bad. A realist can see how good can come from bad and deals with the bad that way. A realist doesn't get discouraged by life. A nihilist does.