On the 'New and Improved' Immigration Bill

Annie

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I think it's going to be interesting to hear what the Legislators hear from their consitutients during this recess:

http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=MzY2ZTdiNjEyMDVjMGM1Yjk2ZjcxZjM5ZWRiNzE5Zjg=

Turn Up the Heat

By The Editors

...

The Bush-Kennedy deal that supporters talk about is exquisitely balanced: Immigration laws will be more seriously enforced, in return for a “path to citizenship” for 12 to 20 million illegal immigrants. In reality, illegal immigrants are far more interested in legal status than in citizenship. The bill gives them that immediately. (It is a prize available only to those aliens who have violated our immigration laws.) The enforcement provisions in the bill, meanwhile, are meaningless.

...

To get this status illegal immigrants must only clear a one-day background check. No fines or penalties must be paid. It is impossible to believe that millions of people will have this legal status revoked if the promised improvements in enforcement are never realized...
 

no1tovote4

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If they added one line...

That the amnesty doesn't go into effect until a disinterested party can certify that illegal immigration has dropped by, oh let's say... 95% or so... I think we might be able to come to a real agreement.

Nobody wants another repeat of 1986. Even Reagan thought that was his biggest mistake.
 

zadie be

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I think that anyone who come in this country illegal for any reason should be deported. If they want to come in this country they must apply and wait until they are allowed then come.

In America any American who harbors persons who committed illegal behavior gets in troble for harboring fugitives. So why is the government makeing excuses and harboring illegal immigrants. Why are they showing Americans that any other countries people can come to America and do as they please illegally and the governmemt will give them a rewards such as anmensty, guess worker, and change the language to Spanish. It is already hard to get a job in San Diego unless you can speak Spanish. The government is not saving America they are destroying it by not following the laws they were put in office to defend. I do not feel they are representing Americans just illegals. I feel my government has abandon us.

What are we to do just let them do this? Why are we not trying to protect the laws and values of America?
 
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Annie

Annie

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Some interesting stuff going on with this topic. Lots of links:

http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/g/ef266dd7-0686-44b1-bd29-27b5cd792bdb?comments=true#commentAnchor

Friday, May 25, 2007
Calling All Counterterrorism Professionals: A Crucial Question For You
Posted by Hugh Hewitt | 9:16 PM

Perhaps I am wrong. I have been many times, and I am always ready to admit it upon hearing a better argument or facts previously unknown to me.

I do not see how it could possibly be a wise thing to grant probationary status to the tens of thousands --at least-- of illegal immigrants in the country who hail from countries with long standing terrorist networks and demonstrated jihadist-friendly populations. This seems to me to be the same thing as welcoming into our country tens of thousands of German, Italian and Japanese nationals in 1944 provided their fingerprints didn't show up in any database.

Secretary Chertoff told me I was wrong. He argued that providing probationary status to every illegal who turns in their paperwork would be useful in the effort to find the terrorists hidden in our own country. If I understand him correctly, he believes that the covert terrorists ill be afraid to turn in the paperwork and will thus be left much more exposed as everyone else will have their probationary documents.

...
 

RetiredGySgt

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I WOULD break with the republicans over this single issue IF there were a party that actually wanted to do something about this.

The Border and illegals are a HUGE National Security threat. The total failure of both parties to be serious about sealing the borders AND the idiotic plan to simply legalize millions of illegal aliens is CRIMINAL.

Having no alternate though I will continue to vote on the other issues.

Hey Maineman? How about you and I get together and form a new party, one that has Moderates and reasonable right and left siders in it?

We could start a thread and hash out the planks of such a party.
 

William Joyce

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I WOULD break with the republicans over this single issue IF there were a party that actually wanted to do something about this.

The Border and illegals are a HUGE National Security threat. The total failure of both parties to be serious about sealing the borders AND the idiotic plan to simply legalize millions of illegal aliens is CRIMINAL.

Having no alternate though I will continue to vote on the other issues.

Hey Maineman? How about you and I get together and form a new party, one that has Moderates and reasonable right and left siders in it?

We could start a thread and hash out the planks of such a party.
Democrats are the party of lesbians, Arab terrorists and black nationalists.

Republicans are the party of ultra-rich international businessmen and neocon Israel-firsters.

There is no party for the rest of us.
 

Edward

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The Border and illegals are a HUGE National Security threat. The total failure of both parties to be serious about sealing the borders AND the idiotic plan to simply legalize millions of illegal aliens is CRIMINAL.
First, it is impossible to completely seal the border and trying to do so is a HUGE national security problem because it doesn't address the root of the problem and actually excerbates the problem. You close the border and you will see more people trying to come into this country illegally for one reason or another which prevents our Border Security personnel from protecting the U.S. from those who would do us harm. It also means that we don't know who is in this country and why they are here. I see no reason not to legalize these immigrants because it ultimately provides us with a knowledge of who is here. The real question now is "are we going to know who is coming into this country from this point forward or are we going to try to seal the border and have millions of people in this country who we do not know are here."

Think of it this way, "if you have 12,000 border patrol agents responsible for border security and you have thousands and even millions of immigrants crossing the border then it would be easier for the one terrorist or ten terrorists to enter the country without us being aware of it whereas if you have an open border with designated points of entry allowing the free flow of persons between the countries with specific laws preventing people from other countries from taking advantage of us these border patrol agents can focus on those who intend us harm." Sealing the border is the problem, and it is not the solution. We need to know who is coming into this country and why they are coming here and that requires a more open border and ultimately a clearer naturalization policy. That is simply being in the country does not grant you citizenship.

That said, it makes far more sense to strengthen the naturalization process as opposed to the immigration process because we want people to enter the country legally instead of illegally so it will be easier to track them. Also, it will make it easier on Americans who have jobs as well by forcing those who work in this country and live in Mexico or live in this country and work in Mexico to pay property and income taxes to their respective states, and country. This may be hard for some people to accept but it ultimately will protect Americans, and protect our sovereignity as a nation.
 

RetiredGySgt

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That makes absolutely no sense.... You argue that we can not seal the border and then say we MUST seal the border. But only after we legalize 12 to 20 million illegals. Talk about an incentive to come to America.... THIS will ensure that MILLIONS more come here, all knowing they will get legalized.
 

Edward

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That makes absolutely no sense.... You argue that we can not seal the border and then say we MUST seal the border. But only after we legalize 12 to 20 million illegals. Talk about an incentive to come to America.... THIS will ensure that MILLIONS more come here, all knowing they will get legalized.
Your post makes absolutely no sense since I did not argue that "we can not seal the border and then say we must seal the border." I suggest you take the time to read what I have said before you start to talk out of your butt. We all know that you can vote and that it makes you feel powerful but some of us don't take kindly to people making false claims about what we have said. If you cannot even discuss the points I have made with some amount of intellectually honesty than you can go to hell. Nor did I claim that we must "seal the border" "only after we legalize 12 to 20 million illegals. My point was and is that we must keep the border open so that we can track who is in this country and who isn't. It is the idea that people should come through designated points of entry but are still free to travel into and out of the United States for whatever purpose they choose. This way we know who is here and why they are here, and are far less likely to have people here who intend us harm. It is these people who will sneak across the border and who are border patrol should be focused on but cannot be focused on at present because they have to deal with illegal immigrants.

This is why comprehensive immigration reform is necessary. Every person who comes here, works here or lives here should not automatically be on track to become a citizen. The rules, and conditions should be clear and the naturalization policy should be fair. Once that is in place, and we apply this retroactively to those already here so that they will come out and identify themselves we must apply this to everyone who comes to the United States. Once that is done, we must make it obvious that there are points of entry and that people should travel through them and not cross the border illegally. Once that is done, we don't have to worry about a sealed border in the sense of a wall because it will be ineffective. We can then deploy technology and border patrol in a way that will secure the physical border for those who would do us harm. This is different from a sealed border. The idea of a fence is morally repugnant and financially unsound as well as ineffective.

I have stated that the point is that we must have an open border policy with a stronger naturalization policy in place otherwise we will overwhelm the very people we need to protect the border because a sealed border poses a national security threat. Every person who comes here must do so legally and the only people sneaking across the borders must be criminals and terrorists. The word legalized only exists in the minds of people who support a closed and sealed border which I do not. I also denounce the idea of mass immigration, and this sort of immigration occurs more often when there is a closed border as opposed to an open border. I have already stated that everyone who enters must do so legally and at points of entry and everyone must be able to enter and exit at will so we can know who is here and why they are here. When you closed the border and seal it altogether you will find that many people entering the country illegally are doing so for benign purposes along with terrorists. What does this mean? It means that the Border Patrol isn't going to find the terrorist. What does that mean for us? It means an increased liklihood of a terrorist attack upon America. If you do not have the honesty to admit that your position puts this country in danger than there is little use discussing it with you until you can actually be reasoned with.

If you think I am advocating making all these people citizens you are mistaken but I do believe that every person in this country must have a legal status within this country and we must know who they are and this bill is the first step in that direction. It is only after we accomplish this that we will have a sound border, immigration and naturalization policy. There is nothing to be afraid of in an open and secure border but there is in a closed and sealed border as the first promotes our national security and the second weakens it.
 

RetiredGySgt

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I apologize, I misread the post. However the claim that we must be MORE open is patently crazy. Allowing 12 to 20 million illegals to become legal will ENSURE millions more illegals flood our country.

Deport them as we catch them, stop them from entering by any means possible and for GOD's sake fine and arrest Officials and companies that ignore the law and hire them. I do not mean arrest those that accidently hire them, I mean arrest the serial offenders that facilitate hiring and turn a blind eye to verification.

This though is not going to happen because neither main party WANTS it to happen. We will pay a steep price when our open borders result in the terror attacks to come.
 
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Annie

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First, it is impossible to completely seal the border and trying to do so is a HUGE national security problem because it doesn't address the root of the problem and actually excerbates the problem. You close the border and you will see more people trying to come into this country illegally for one reason or another which prevents our Border Security personnel from protecting the U.S. from those who would do us harm. It also means that we don't know who is in this country and why they are here. I see no reason not to legalize these immigrants because it ultimately provides us with a knowledge of who is here. The real question now is "are we going to know who is coming into this country from this point forward or are we going to try to seal the border and have millions of people in this country who we do not know are here."

Think of it this way, "if you have 12,000 border patrol agents responsible for border security and you have thousands and even millions of immigrants crossing the border then it would be easier for the one terrorist or ten terrorists to enter the country without us being aware of it whereas if you have an open border with designated points of entry allowing the free flow of persons between the countries with specific laws preventing people from other countries from taking advantage of us these border patrol agents can focus on those who intend us harm." Sealing the border is the problem, and it is not the solution. We need to know who is coming into this country and why they are coming here and that requires a more open border and ultimately a clearer naturalization policy. That is simply being in the country does not grant you citizenship.

That said, it makes far more sense to strengthen the naturalization process as opposed to the immigration process because we want people to enter the country legally instead of illegally so it will be easier to track them. Also, it will make it easier on Americans who have jobs as well by forcing those who work in this country and live in Mexico or live in this country and work in Mexico to pay property and income taxes to their respective states, and country. This may be hard for some people to accept but it ultimately will protect Americans, and protect our sovereignity as a nation.
I agree with what you've said. I do not think however that the present immigration bill is the cure one seeks. There is little doubt that there will be a rush of new illegals, (possibly including terrorists), hoping to get in before it takes effect. Then there are the loopholes, a few are highlighted here:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/0527200...r_breakdown_opedcolumnists_kris_w__kobach.htm



RX FOR BREAKDOWN
HOW IMMIG BILL OVERLOADS BUREAUCRACY & ENDANGERS SECURITY
By KRIS W. KOBACH...

Many of the bill's advocates claim the amnesty doesn't take effect until some future date - after the measure's border-security goals are met. Not true - at least, not in effect. The amnesty starts immediately - with the issuance of probationary Z visas.

And that qualifier means little: The probationary visa is nearly as good as the non-probationary one, giving the alien immediate lawful status, protection from deportation and work authorization the alien to work. He or she can exit and re-enter the country (with advance permission).

It will extremely hard for the government to prevent criminals and terrorists from getting these probationary visas. The bill allows the federal government only one business day to do a "background check" on each applicant.

...
and something of what the effects might be down the line:

http://www.suntimes.com/news/steyn/402407,CST-EDT-steyn27.article

So much news, so little sense

May 27, 2007
MARK STEYN ...

ndeed. Everyone wants to sound reasonable and be the chap who charts the middle course between the Scylla of open borders and the Charybdis of mass deportation. But these are not equivalent dangers. The Charybdis of mass deportation is a mythical monster: It does not exist. It will never exist. No politician is arguing for it, and no U.S. agency is capable of accomplishing it. Indeed, even non-mass deportation does not exist. Go on, try it. Go to your local immigration office and say: Hello, boys. Here I am. I'm an illegal immigrant, got no right to be here, been breaking the law for 20 years, but I've seen the light and I want you to deport me back to Mexico, Yemen, you name it. The immigration guys will say: Leave your name and address and we'll get back to you in a decade or three.

But the Scylla of open borders does exist. It's the reality of the situation. What else would you call it when a population the size of Belgium's (the lowball estimate) or Australia's (the upper end) moves onto your land? And with the connivance of multiple state agencies, not to mention those municipalities that proudly declare themselves to be "sanctuary cities?"
...
 

Edward

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I apologize, I misread the post. However the claim that we must be MORE open is patently crazy. Allowing 12 to 20 million illegals to become legal will ENSURE millions more illegals flood our country.
First, it is your idea that we must seal our border that is patently crazy because it threatens our national security by making it impossible for us to know who is here and why they are here. You keep saying, " we must catch and deport 12 to 20 million illegal immigrants them and then we must deport them." This position prevents us from knowing who is here and why they are here while mine is to find out who is here and to grant them legal status (not the same as citizenship or permenant residency, etc) and to make sure the only people here illegally are those who intend us harm. Second, everytime someone comes to the United States either by plane, bus, car or ship they should do so at designated points of entry. Third, once we have an open and secure border established (as opposed to a closed and sealed) we can establish a clear immigration and naturalization policy.

This is how we will prevent mass immigration and establish a comprehensive border, immigration and naturalization policy that keeps us safe while providing clear guidelines as to who can become a U.S. citizen and the process for becoming a citizen. The fact that someone lives or works in the United States shouldn't automatically put them on track to become a citizen. When you have these 12 to 20 million coming here legally through designated points of entry the only people that our border patrol will have to worry about is those who intend us harm and do not want us to know they are here. This addresses every single concern posed by illegal immigration and prevents it in all its forms. There simply would be no reason for someone to enter this country illegally as it would not benefit them to do so while entering the country legally will become more common. One of the tenants of a free society is the freedom of movement and as you limit that you take away that right you will find that people will begin to violate the law and put us and others in danger as a result.

Deport them as we catch them, stop them from entering by any means possible and for GOD's sake fine and arrest Officials and companies that ignore the law and hire them. I do not mean arrest those that accidently hire them, I mean arrest the serial offenders that facilitate hiring and turn a blind eye to verification.
With your position we will never know who is here and that means that terrorists can come to this country and do us harm. It is only as we begin to recognize the problem sealing our border and immediate deportation, if caught, poses. Think of it this way, "you have 12 million illegal immigrants coming here and 2 or 3 terrorists doing so illegally. Now if the border patrol must worry about 12 million illegal immigrants they are far less likely to catch the 2 or 3 terrorists who are sneaking into the country wheareas if you take the 12 million out of the equation by having an open and secure border the border patrol can now focus on apprehending those who come here to do us harm. It is absolutely necessary for us to know who is here and why they are here. This position is consistent with that of the Bush administration as well and it is not often that I agree with them but in this they recognize our need to know who is coming into this country. When you have a sealed borde (as opposed to a secure border) this is impossible as people will then find illegal ways to do what they should be doing legally which is entering this country.

This though is not going to happen because neither main party WANTS it to happen. We will pay a steep price when our open borders result in the terror attacks to come.
No, it is as the 10 terrorists come across the border with a group of illegal immigrants and aren't caught because the border patrol are stretched thin that your position will result in more Americans dying in terrorist attacks. Those with narrow minds assume that simply adding more border security will solve the problem but what they fail to understand it becomes almost impossible to capture and apprehend the handful of terrorists among the millions of people who come here illegally while it is far easier to flag a person as suspicious and not allow them to enter the U.S at a point of entry and then to catch them trying to cross the border illegally in this scenario because you can be 100% positive that the only people crossing the border intend to do us harm because everyone else is free to legally enter and exit the country at will. Once that is done, and once we have achieved this open and secure border then it is obvious that we need to address the issue of immigration and naturalization.

The first thing we must accept is that you do not need to be a U.S. citizen to live and work in the United States. If you want to live in the U.S. and have a job in Mexico, Canada or Japan or vice versa than so be it. We currently have millions of undocumented workers benefiting from our system without paying taxes because we don't know they are in the country. The solution to this is simple, "if you live and work in Mexico you pay Mexican property and income tax, and if you live and work in the United States you pay U.S. income and property tax and if you work in Mexico and live in the United States than you pay Mexican income tax and U.S. property tax but if you work in the United States and live in Mexico you pay U.S. income tax and Mexico property tax." This should hold true of any country. Now if we have this open and secure border combined with a clear and comprhensive immigration and naturalization policy (i.e., simply living and working here does not automatically make you a citizen) who are the people crossing the border illegally somewhere other than a designated point of entry? The answer to that is that the only people doing this are those who intend to do us harm.
 

RetiredGySgt

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Your nuts, your own arguments make zero sense.

Short of simply announcing everyone inside our borders is now a citizen, come collect your paper work, we will NEVER know who all the illegals are, because NO ONE in Government WANTS to know.

And if we do that and don't secure our borders, with in a couple years we will have a new patch for 10 to 20 million illegals that NO one knows again. All waiting to be made legal.


If we make no effort to shut down the movement of millions across our borders undocumented we will have as many terrorists in the country as wish to come and can afford a trip to central America. And NO way to ever know who they are, where they are and what they are doing, except by blind luck or AFTER an attack.

The idea that if we legalize 20 million illegals and do NOTHING about the border that this will somehow make us safer is as crazy as it gets.

The idea that if our Border security force doesn't chase down apprehend, document and deal with illegal entry we will be SAFER from terrorist then if they do is also crazy.

Thats just the safety angle. Go read what it costs us now in social services and medical to take care of these people. Start with California and then check Arizona and Texas.

The argument that if our Border Guards are busy chasing down illegals they will miss a terrorist here or there BUT if they do nothing, we will be safe is absolutely nuts.

The argument that we should "find" the problem that brings these people here is idiotic. We already know why they come. Because their own countries can't or won't provide jobs for them. The only solution other than shutting down the border would be taking over central America and building it up like America.

Sending money won't help, corruption and crooked Military and Government officials will see to that. So can I put you down in the " we must invade Central America" book?
 
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"The Bush-Kennedy deal that supporters talk about is exquisitely balanced: Immigration laws will be more seriously enforced, in return for a “path to citizenship” for 12 to 20 million illegal immigrants. In reality, illegal immigrants are far more interested in legal status than in citizenship. The bill gives them that immediately. (It is a prize available only to those aliens who have violated our immigration laws.) The enforcement provisions in the bill, meanwhile, are meaningless...."
Giving them legal status immediately is the worst part of the bill. And it's the part that the Senate wants in there the most. Immediate legal status is exactly the same thing as amnesty. Worse still, this provision gives illegal employers immediate amnesty as well. The current Senate bill is actually worse than the one from last year. Below is a graphic representation of the differences from the New York Times (see "attachment")

Below is a summary of the Amnesty provisions from the Christian Science Monitor

"Illegal immigrants who arrived in US before 2007 (some 12 million):

•can immediately receive a probationary card, which allows them to legally live and work in the US

•are eligible for a renewable Z visa, offering a path to permanent legal residency status

•are required to pay $5,000 fine, pass a criminal background check, and be employed

•and are heads of household are required to return to their home countries within eight years....
"


The bill provides immediate amnesty to 12-20 million illegal immigrants. Polls clearly show that the majority of Americans want illegal immigration reduced and want employers prosecuted for hiring illegal immigrants.

(To view thumbnail at full size, wait until box appears in lower right-hand corner, then click on it.)
 

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