CDZ Off-duty police were part of the Capitol mob. Now police are turning in their own.

[Tom Paine 1949]

Tom Paine 1949 wrote:

The issue raised concerns police and military who supported Trump’s attempt to remain in office unconstitutionally, who participated in or assisted the invasion and disruption of the Capitol while Congress was in session fulfilling its constitutionally mandated reading of the confirmed electoral votes received from each of 50 states.

9thIDdoc responded:

“Are you incapable of trying to prove a point without begging the question? Where exactly is there any proof that President Trump has done anything unconstitutional or encouraged others to do so? When and where exactly was it legally proven in court that any law was broken or the Constitution violated? And by what legal principle do you claim that anybody anywhere is responsible for crimes or (more likely) misdemeanors committed those people who entered the Capitol building?.... And last I heard LEOs and military were allowed to hold their own personal political and personal opinions and probably would even if not "allowed". If there is any evidence that the Oath Keepers are anything other than who and what they say they are?”

9thIDdoc also wrote:

“Was there a riot? If so prove it first before ranting about the consiquinsies.”

Tom Paine 1949 responds:

Thanks for expressing your opinions.

This thread is NOT about providing “proof that President Trump has done anything unconstitutional or encouraged others to do so.”

Nor is this a trial setting where I or anybody need provide evidence “legally proven in court that any law was broken or the Constitution violated” ... on Jan. 6th.

Nor do I think it necessary in the slightest to “prove” there “was” “a riot” — that is self evident.

We all know — indeed we saw and heard with our own eyes and ears — what happened on January 6th and in the months leading up to it.

You apparently still can’t accept that serious laws were broken and red lines crossed, that anything “unconstitutional” occurred when mobs invaded, broke through police lines, and violated the constitutionally-mandated reading of each state’s confirmed electoral votes inside the Capitol building, threatening lawmakers in both parties.

As for off-duty police, national guardsmen and such groups as the Oathkeepers — they were definitely at Trump’s rally, but apparently the Oathkeepers at least did not enter the Capitol Building itself. Ongoing investigation will reveal more about the extent of criminal activity by any organized groups and possibly provide evidence for charges. You don’t seem to want to discuss this question concretely, or even historically. The Wiki article provides evidence about what the Oathkeepers do and “say they are.”

My hope is that we will see a peaceful transition to the new Biden administration, that there are no bloody rightwing domestic terrorist attacks or assassinations in the next period, no armed militia demonstrations against any political party, no seizing of state houses, etc. Certainly the “Establishment” is geared up at present to deal with such events and the internet is being effectively “policed” to prevent them. Any such activities, imo, will just play into the hands of the corporate “security state.”

There is a grave danger that new permanent and severe censorship practices and new police state powers / laws will result from this very sad experience. That should be opposed by both progressives and libertarians.

I was mistaken earlier when I wrote that the “Oath Keepers” were at the Trump rally but apparently “did not enter the Capitol Building.” It now seems clear that at least some prominent Oath Keeper members DID INDEED enter the Capitol:

Prosecutors say Oath Keepers militia members conspired in U.S. Capitol siege

Prosecutors on Tuesday said three people affiliated with a far-right militia group conspired to breach the U.S. Capitol, the first time they have directly accused people of organizing the violent Jan. 6 uprising that left five people dead.

www.reuters.com

And by "some" you mean "one".

IF you assume that all accused people are guilty.

I don’t assume anything. I mean what I say. Reagan used to say “Trust ... but verify.” After checking, seems the National Guard in D.C. had more than a few problem members after all. Not surprising at all:

Dozen U.S. National Guard troops removed from inaugural duty after vetting

A dozen members of the U.S. National Guard have been removed from duty helping secure the inauguration of President-elect Joe Biden after vetting, which included screening for potential ties to right-wing extremism, Pentagon officials said on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

 

[Correll]

Tom Paine 1949 wrote:

The issue raised concerns police and military who supported Trump’s attempt to remain in office unconstitutionally, who participated in or assisted the invasion and disruption of the Capitol while Congress was in session fulfilling its constitutionally mandated reading of the confirmed electoral votes received from each of 50 states.

9thIDdoc responded:

“Are you incapable of trying to prove a point without begging the question? Where exactly is there any proof that President Trump has done anything unconstitutional or encouraged others to do so? When and where exactly was it legally proven in court that any law was broken or the Constitution violated? And by what legal principle do you claim that anybody anywhere is responsible for crimes or (more likely) misdemeanors committed those people who entered the Capitol building?.... And last I heard LEOs and military were allowed to hold their own personal political and personal opinions and probably would even if not "allowed". If there is any evidence that the Oath Keepers are anything other than who and what they say they are?”

9thIDdoc also wrote:

“Was there a riot? If so prove it first before ranting about the consiquinsies.”

Tom Paine 1949 responds:

Thanks for expressing your opinions.

This thread is NOT about providing “proof that President Trump has done anything unconstitutional or encouraged others to do so.”

Nor is this a trial setting where I or anybody need provide evidence “legally proven in court that any law was broken or the Constitution violated” ... on Jan. 6th.

Nor do I think it necessary in the slightest to “prove” there “was” “a riot” — that is self evident.

We all know — indeed we saw and heard with our own eyes and ears — what happened on January 6th and in the months leading up to it.

You apparently still can’t accept that serious laws were broken and red lines crossed, that anything “unconstitutional” occurred when mobs invaded, broke through police lines, and violated the constitutionally-mandated reading of each state’s confirmed electoral votes inside the Capitol building, threatening lawmakers in both parties.

As for off-duty police, national guardsmen and such groups as the Oathkeepers — they were definitely at Trump’s rally, but apparently the Oathkeepers at least did not enter the Capitol Building itself. Ongoing investigation will reveal more about the extent of criminal activity by any organized groups and possibly provide evidence for charges. You don’t seem to want to discuss this question concretely, or even historically. The Wiki article provides evidence about what the Oathkeepers do and “say they are.”

My hope is that we will see a peaceful transition to the new Biden administration, that there are no bloody rightwing domestic terrorist attacks or assassinations in the next period, no armed militia demonstrations against any political party, no seizing of state houses, etc. Certainly the “Establishment” is geared up at present to deal with such events and the internet is being effectively “policed” to prevent them. Any such activities, imo, will just play into the hands of the corporate “security state.”

There is a grave danger that new permanent and severe censorship practices and new police state powers / laws will result from this very sad experience. That should be opposed by both progressives and libertarians.

I was mistaken earlier when I wrote that the “Oath Keepers” were at the Trump rally but apparently “did not enter the Capitol Building.” It now seems clear that at least some prominent Oath Keeper members DID INDEED enter the Capitol:

Prosecutors say Oath Keepers militia members conspired in U.S. Capitol siege

Prosecutors on Tuesday said three people affiliated with a far-right militia group conspired to breach the U.S. Capitol, the first time they have directly accused people of organizing the violent Jan. 6 uprising that left five people dead.

www.reuters.com

And by "some" you mean "one".

IF you assume that all accused people are guilty.

I don’t assume anything. I mean what I say. Reagan used to say “Trust ... but verify.” After checking, seems the National Guard in D.C. had more than a few problem members after all. Not surprising at all:

Dozen U.S. National Guard troops removed from inaugural duty after vetting

A dozen members of the U.S. National Guard have been removed from duty helping secure the inauguration of President-elect Joe Biden after vetting, which included screening for potential ties to right-wing extremism, Pentagon officials said on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

You just did it again. Your link states "potential ties" and you state it as fact.


It is worth noting that "dozens" of "potential links" out of 15k, is not evidence of a serious problem.


Your attempt to spin it as such, is panic mongering and divisive.