CDZ Off-duty police were part of the Capitol mob. Now police are turning in their own.

[9thIDdoc]

Everyone who carries police credentials that entitle them to exercise in their communities must be apprehended if they participated in the riot at the Capitol, fired, and charged. Current service members, and, I believe retired service members to some degree, must face discipline under the UCMJ. That traitors seek to recruit them due to their training has been no secret for several years. "There is also evidence closer in time to the drafting of the Constitution which indicates that behavior supporting articles of impeachment—i.e., “high crimes and misdemeanors”—need not be crimes.

Two cops from Virginia who were among the rioters were caught the other day, and there are other cases.

Now this is scary: CNN just announced that a guy from Virginia (no information on whether he is a cop or service member) was just caught at a checkpoint entering DC with fake inauguration credentials, as well as a glock and 500 rounds of ammunition.

Was there a riot? If so prove it first before ranting about the consiquinsies. We have had over 50 years of demonstrations most of which were more violent than the one in DC. and the courts have ruled they were examples of free speech. Was there a siege or attack or attempted coup or rebellion or treason? Prove it in a court of law instead of wandering around shouting "everybody knows...!" and obviously begging the question. Depending on what the courts rule we may need to revisit and re-investigate all the past riots insurrections and rebellions. Especially what occurred in Portland. All similar demonstrations deserve to be judged fairly and by the same criteria doing anything else is both illegal and highly hypocritical. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

" I think that members of the right-wing Oathkeepers group did participate, and they claim that they have the right to interpret the Constitution on the hoof in their communities, rather than enforcing the law as written."

Don't be stupid. They not only have that right they have sworn to do so and have assumed that duty. All US citizens have that right and responsibility. Nothing that violates the Constitution is legal and binding. Soldiers are sworn to obey all legal orders by their chain of Command and may face punishment if the orders they follow violate the Constitution or the UCMJ. That is why they are sworn to the Constitution and not "laws as written" or government.

 

[konradv]

There is no doubt that local police rank and file across the country overwhelmingly voted for Trump. In “banana republics” police officers and professional soldiers often are at the front line of coups. Ex-soldiers are often experienced professional killers who have trouble returning to normal life. We are now learning that more than a few Trump-supporting cops, national guardsmen and ex-“cops of the world” joined with the Trump mob that openly and physically attacked Congress to try to keep Trump in office. There is no choice but to fire and severely punish these Capitol invaders. An example must be made so police or soldiers or wild “militiamen” who are so bold as to think they can organize a future coup in the U.S. think twice. There must also be investigations of any “insiders” who helped the rioters invade the Capitol while it was in Joint Session. Our lame duck President should be convicted in the Senate for the political “high crime and misdemeanor” of encouraging this shameful crime and stain on our polity.

Do you agree, or do you think our society can afford to treat this Capitol invasion as if it was nothing more than “patriotic play-acting,” just another street demonstration or local riot?

***

“At least 13 off-duty law enforcement officials are suspected of taking part in the riot, a tally that could grow as investigators continue to pore over footage and records to identify participants. Police leaders are turning in their own to the FBI and taking the striking step of reminding officers in their departments that criminal misconduct could push them off the force and behind bars....

“[The] president of the Major Cities [Police] Chiefs Association, said the behavior is so egregious that it is often fellow officers who are alerting police chiefs and others to their colleagues’ participation in last week’s mob attack on the Capitol....

“It marks a notable break in the so-called “blue wall of silence,” an aspect of police culture that encourages officers to turn a blind eye to misconduct by fellow officers....”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...0ace1e-567d-11eb-a08b-f1381ef3d207_story.html

This should come as no surprise to anyone. Specifically we have discussed a group known as "Oath Keepers" made up primarily of LEOs and military both active and veteran. These folks have sworn an oath to protect and defend the Constitution from all enemies foreign or domestic.. Contrary to most politicians they actually meant their oath and still do and consider the Constitution the ultimate law in the land above government and politics. Should it come down to an actual shooting war I expect the the majority of them will side with the People instead of the government.

They got tanks?

 

[9thIDdoc]

There is no doubt that local police rank and file across the country overwhelmingly voted for Trump. In “banana republics” police officers and professional soldiers often are at the front line of coups. Ex-soldiers are often experienced professional killers who have trouble returning to normal life. We are now learning that more than a few Trump-supporting cops, national guardsmen and ex-“cops of the world” joined with the Trump mob that openly and physically attacked Congress to try to keep Trump in office. There is no choice but to fire and severely punish these Capitol invaders. An example must be made so police or soldiers or wild “militiamen” who are so bold as to think they can organize a future coup in the U.S. think twice. There must also be investigations of any “insiders” who helped the rioters invade the Capitol while it was in Joint Session. Our lame duck President should be convicted in the Senate for the political “high crime and misdemeanor” of encouraging this shameful crime and stain on our polity.

Do you agree, or do you think our society can afford to treat this Capitol invasion as if it was nothing more than “patriotic play-acting,” just another street demonstration or local riot?

***

“At least 13 off-duty law enforcement officials are suspected of taking part in the riot, a tally that could grow as investigators continue to pore over footage and records to identify participants. Police leaders are turning in their own to the FBI and taking the striking step of reminding officers in their departments that criminal misconduct could push them off the force and behind bars....

“[The] president of the Major Cities [Police] Chiefs Association, said the behavior is so egregious that it is often fellow officers who are alerting police chiefs and others to their colleagues’ participation in last week’s mob attack on the Capitol....

“It marks a notable break in the so-called “blue wall of silence,” an aspect of police culture that encourages officers to turn a blind eye to misconduct by fellow officers....”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...0ace1e-567d-11eb-a08b-f1381ef3d207_story.html

This should come as no surprise to anyone. Specifically we have discussed a group known as "Oath Keepers" made up primarily of LEOs and military both active and veteran. These folks have sworn an oath to protect and defend the Constitution from all enemies foreign or domestic.. Contrary to most politicians they actually meant their oath and still do and consider the Constitution the ultimate law in the land above government and politics. Should it come down to an actual shooting war I expect the the majority of them will side with the People instead of the government.

They got tanks?

Are you seriously asking if the military has tanks?

 

[Mac-7]

The number of off-duty police officers and soldiers who attended the rally was of course far greater than the 13 or so who are reportedly currently being investigated for actual rioting. There is no question that those who merely attended the Trump rally on their own time, yet refused to break onto Capitol property were not committing any crime. Stupidity or just being misled by a demagogic President is not by itself a crime.

There are over 800,000 police officers in the US

IF13 are convicted of criminal acts during the storming of the capital they deserve to be punished

but the other 799,987 have every right to be pissed off about the lies being told about them by the radical left

 

[Mac1958]

There is no doubt that local police rank and file across the country overwhelmingly voted for Trump. In “banana republics” police officers and professional soldiers often are at the front line of coups. Ex-soldiers are often experienced professional killers who have trouble returning to normal life. We are now learning that more than a few Trump-supporting cops, national guardsmen and ex-“cops of the world” joined with the Trump mob that openly and physically attacked Congress to try to keep Trump in office. There is no choice but to fire and severely punish these Capitol invaders. An example must be made so police or soldiers or wild “militiamen” who are so bold as to think they can organize a future coup in the U.S. think twice. There must also be investigations of any “insiders” who helped the rioters invade the Capitol while it was in Joint Session. Our lame duck President should be convicted in the Senate for the political “high crime and misdemeanor” of encouraging this shameful crime and stain on our polity.

Do you agree, or do you think our society can afford to treat this Capitol invasion as if it was nothing more than “patriotic play-acting,” just another street demonstration or local riot?

***

“At least 13 off-duty law enforcement officials are suspected of taking part in the riot, a tally that could grow as investigators continue to pore over footage and records to identify participants. Police leaders are turning in their own to the FBI and taking the striking step of reminding officers in their departments that criminal misconduct could push them off the force and behind bars....

“[The] president of the Major Cities [Police] Chiefs Association, said the behavior is so egregious that it is often fellow officers who are alerting police chiefs and others to their colleagues’ participation in last week’s mob attack on the Capitol....

“It marks a notable break in the so-called “blue wall of silence,” an aspect of police culture that encourages officers to turn a blind eye to misconduct by fellow officers....”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...0ace1e-567d-11eb-a08b-f1381ef3d207_story.html

No doubt, this is one of the primary dangers of domestic terrorism: The opportunity to have fellow terrorists "on the inside".

Dangerous times.

 

[Correll]

There is no doubt that local police rank and file across the country overwhelmingly voted for Trump. In “banana republics” police officers and professional soldiers often are at the front line of coups. Ex-soldiers are often experienced professional killers who have trouble returning to normal life. We are now learning that more than a few Trump-supporting cops, national guardsmen and ex-“cops of the world” joined with the Trump mob that openly and physically attacked Congress to try to keep Trump in office. There is no choice but to fire and severely punish these Capitol invaders. An example must be made so police or soldiers or wild “militiamen” who are so bold as to think they can organize a future coup in the U.S. think twice. There must also be investigations of any “insiders” who helped the rioters invade the Capitol while it was in Joint Session. Our lame duck President should be convicted in the Senate for the political “high crime and misdemeanor” of encouraging this shameful crime and stain on our polity.

Do you agree, or do you think our society can afford to treat this Capitol invasion as if it was nothing more than “patriotic play-acting,” just another street demonstration or local riot?

***

“At least 13 off-duty law enforcement officials are suspected of taking part in the riot, a tally that could grow as investigators continue to pore over footage and records to identify participants. Police leaders are turning in their own to the FBI and taking the striking step of reminding officers in their departments that criminal misconduct could push them off the force and behind bars....

“[The] president of the Major Cities [Police] Chiefs Association, said the behavior is so egregious that it is often fellow officers who are alerting police chiefs and others to their colleagues’ participation in last week’s mob attack on the Capitol....

“It marks a notable break in the so-called “blue wall of silence,” an aspect of police culture that encourages officers to turn a blind eye to misconduct by fellow officers....”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...0ace1e-567d-11eb-a08b-f1381ef3d207_story.html

THe protest was mostly peaceful.

 

[Correll]

There is no doubt that local police rank and file across the country overwhelmingly voted for Trump. In “banana republics” police officers and professional soldiers often are at the front line of coups. Ex-soldiers are often experienced professional killers who have trouble returning to normal life. We are now learning that more than a few Trump-supporting cops, national guardsmen and ex-“cops of the world” joined with the Trump mob that openly and physically attacked Congress to try to keep Trump in office. There is no choice but to fire and severely punish these Capitol invaders. An example must be made so police or soldiers or wild “militiamen” who are so bold as to think they can organize a future coup in the U.S. think twice. There must also be investigations of any “insiders” who helped the rioters invade the Capitol while it was in Joint Session. Our lame duck President should be convicted in the Senate for the political “high crime and misdemeanor” of encouraging this shameful crime and stain on our polity.

Do you agree, or do you think our society can afford to treat this Capitol invasion as if it was nothing more than “patriotic play-acting,” just another street demonstration or local riot?

***

“At least 13 off-duty law enforcement officials are suspected of taking part in the riot, a tally that could grow as investigators continue to pore over footage and records to identify participants. Police leaders are turning in their own to the FBI and taking the striking step of reminding officers in their departments that criminal misconduct could push them off the force and behind bars....

“[The] president of the Major Cities [Police] Chiefs Association, said the behavior is so egregious that it is often fellow officers who are alerting police chiefs and others to their colleagues’ participation in last week’s mob attack on the Capitol....

“It marks a notable break in the so-called “blue wall of silence,” an aspect of police culture that encourages officers to turn a blind eye to misconduct by fellow officers....”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...0ace1e-567d-11eb-a08b-f1381ef3d207_story.html

No doubt, this is one of the primary dangers of domestic terrorism: The opportunity to have fellow terrorists "on the inside".

Dangerous times.

You mean like when dem mayors order the cops to stand down and then to arrest people that defend themselves?

 

[Mac1958]

There is no doubt that local police rank and file across the country overwhelmingly voted for Trump. In “banana republics” police officers and professional soldiers often are at the front line of coups. Ex-soldiers are often experienced professional killers who have trouble returning to normal life. We are now learning that more than a few Trump-supporting cops, national guardsmen and ex-“cops of the world” joined with the Trump mob that openly and physically attacked Congress to try to keep Trump in office. There is no choice but to fire and severely punish these Capitol invaders. An example must be made so police or soldiers or wild “militiamen” who are so bold as to think they can organize a future coup in the U.S. think twice. There must also be investigations of any “insiders” who helped the rioters invade the Capitol while it was in Joint Session. Our lame duck President should be convicted in the Senate for the political “high crime and misdemeanor” of encouraging this shameful crime and stain on our polity.

Do you agree, or do you think our society can afford to treat this Capitol invasion as if it was nothing more than “patriotic play-acting,” just another street demonstration or local riot?

***

“At least 13 off-duty law enforcement officials are suspected of taking part in the riot, a tally that could grow as investigators continue to pore over footage and records to identify participants. Police leaders are turning in their own to the FBI and taking the striking step of reminding officers in their departments that criminal misconduct could push them off the force and behind bars....

“[The] president of the Major Cities [Police] Chiefs Association, said the behavior is so egregious that it is often fellow officers who are alerting police chiefs and others to their colleagues’ participation in last week’s mob attack on the Capitol....

“It marks a notable break in the so-called “blue wall of silence,” an aspect of police culture that encourages officers to turn a blind eye to misconduct by fellow officers....”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...0ace1e-567d-11eb-a08b-f1381ef3d207_story.html

No doubt, this is one of the primary dangers of domestic terrorism: The opportunity to have fellow terrorists "on the inside".

Dangerous times.

You mean like when dem mayors order the cops to stand down and then to arrest people that defend themselves?

No.

 

[Correll]

There is no doubt that local police rank and file across the country overwhelmingly voted for Trump. In “banana republics” police officers and professional soldiers often are at the front line of coups. Ex-soldiers are often experienced professional killers who have trouble returning to normal life. We are now learning that more than a few Trump-supporting cops, national guardsmen and ex-“cops of the world” joined with the Trump mob that openly and physically attacked Congress to try to keep Trump in office. There is no choice but to fire and severely punish these Capitol invaders. An example must be made so police or soldiers or wild “militiamen” who are so bold as to think they can organize a future coup in the U.S. think twice. There must also be investigations of any “insiders” who helped the rioters invade the Capitol while it was in Joint Session. Our lame duck President should be convicted in the Senate for the political “high crime and misdemeanor” of encouraging this shameful crime and stain on our polity.

Do you agree, or do you think our society can afford to treat this Capitol invasion as if it was nothing more than “patriotic play-acting,” just another street demonstration or local riot?

***

“At least 13 off-duty law enforcement officials are suspected of taking part in the riot, a tally that could grow as investigators continue to pore over footage and records to identify participants. Police leaders are turning in their own to the FBI and taking the striking step of reminding officers in their departments that criminal misconduct could push them off the force and behind bars....

“[The] president of the Major Cities [Police] Chiefs Association, said the behavior is so egregious that it is often fellow officers who are alerting police chiefs and others to their colleagues’ participation in last week’s mob attack on the Capitol....

“It marks a notable break in the so-called “blue wall of silence,” an aspect of police culture that encourages officers to turn a blind eye to misconduct by fellow officers....”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...0ace1e-567d-11eb-a08b-f1381ef3d207_story.html

No doubt, this is one of the primary dangers of domestic terrorism: The opportunity to have fellow terrorists "on the inside".

Dangerous times.

You mean like when dem mayors order the cops to stand down and then to arrest people that defend themselves?

No.

How about when dem mayors fire cops that arrest rioters as they are committing crimes?


Is that dangerous? or "Cool"?

 

[Mac1958]

There is no doubt that local police rank and file across the country overwhelmingly voted for Trump. In “banana republics” police officers and professional soldiers often are at the front line of coups. Ex-soldiers are often experienced professional killers who have trouble returning to normal life. We are now learning that more than a few Trump-supporting cops, national guardsmen and ex-“cops of the world” joined with the Trump mob that openly and physically attacked Congress to try to keep Trump in office. There is no choice but to fire and severely punish these Capitol invaders. An example must be made so police or soldiers or wild “militiamen” who are so bold as to think they can organize a future coup in the U.S. think twice. There must also be investigations of any “insiders” who helped the rioters invade the Capitol while it was in Joint Session. Our lame duck President should be convicted in the Senate for the political “high crime and misdemeanor” of encouraging this shameful crime and stain on our polity.

Do you agree, or do you think our society can afford to treat this Capitol invasion as if it was nothing more than “patriotic play-acting,” just another street demonstration or local riot?

***

“At least 13 off-duty law enforcement officials are suspected of taking part in the riot, a tally that could grow as investigators continue to pore over footage and records to identify participants. Police leaders are turning in their own to the FBI and taking the striking step of reminding officers in their departments that criminal misconduct could push them off the force and behind bars....

“[The] president of the Major Cities [Police] Chiefs Association, said the behavior is so egregious that it is often fellow officers who are alerting police chiefs and others to their colleagues’ participation in last week’s mob attack on the Capitol....

“It marks a notable break in the so-called “blue wall of silence,” an aspect of police culture that encourages officers to turn a blind eye to misconduct by fellow officers....”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...0ace1e-567d-11eb-a08b-f1381ef3d207_story.html

No doubt, this is one of the primary dangers of domestic terrorism: The opportunity to have fellow terrorists "on the inside".

Dangerous times.

You mean like when dem mayors order the cops to stand down and then to arrest people that defend themselves?

No.

How about when dem mayors fire cops that arrest rioters as they are committing crimes?


Is that dangerous? or "Cool"?

You just keep trying to change the subject and put me on the defensive. That's all you have.

You've reached rock bottom and support domestic terrorism. You are un-American and dangerous.

Please post to someone else.

 

[Correll]

There is no doubt that local police rank and file across the country overwhelmingly voted for Trump. In “banana republics” police officers and professional soldiers often are at the front line of coups. Ex-soldiers are often experienced professional killers who have trouble returning to normal life. We are now learning that more than a few Trump-supporting cops, national guardsmen and ex-“cops of the world” joined with the Trump mob that openly and physically attacked Congress to try to keep Trump in office. There is no choice but to fire and severely punish these Capitol invaders. An example must be made so police or soldiers or wild “militiamen” who are so bold as to think they can organize a future coup in the U.S. think twice. There must also be investigations of any “insiders” who helped the rioters invade the Capitol while it was in Joint Session. Our lame duck President should be convicted in the Senate for the political “high crime and misdemeanor” of encouraging this shameful crime and stain on our polity.

Do you agree, or do you think our society can afford to treat this Capitol invasion as if it was nothing more than “patriotic play-acting,” just another street demonstration or local riot?

***

“At least 13 off-duty law enforcement officials are suspected of taking part in the riot, a tally that could grow as investigators continue to pore over footage and records to identify participants. Police leaders are turning in their own to the FBI and taking the striking step of reminding officers in their departments that criminal misconduct could push them off the force and behind bars....

“[The] president of the Major Cities [Police] Chiefs Association, said the behavior is so egregious that it is often fellow officers who are alerting police chiefs and others to their colleagues’ participation in last week’s mob attack on the Capitol....

“It marks a notable break in the so-called “blue wall of silence,” an aspect of police culture that encourages officers to turn a blind eye to misconduct by fellow officers....”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...0ace1e-567d-11eb-a08b-f1381ef3d207_story.html

No doubt, this is one of the primary dangers of domestic terrorism: The opportunity to have fellow terrorists "on the inside".

Dangerous times.

You mean like when dem mayors order the cops to stand down and then to arrest people that defend themselves?

No.

How about when dem mayors fire cops that arrest rioters as they are committing crimes?


Is that dangerous? or "Cool"?

You just keep trying to change the subject and put me on the defensive. That's all you have.

You've reached rock bottom and support domestic terrorism. You are un-American and dangerous.

Please post to someone else.

I have been and remain unhappy and opposed to the use of political violence as part of the internal political process of our nation.


THat has been my position all along.

Your side is the the one that started that, and wants it, and has been supporting it all along.


My point is that violence begets violence and you cannot start a war and whine when the other side fights back.


Well, you can. But at that point, YOU have reached rock bottom.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

This is a CDZ discussion, and there have been too many personal attacks. I have reported the worst.

The issue raised concerns police and military who supported Trump’s attempt to remain in office unconstitutionally, who participated in or assisted the invasion and disruption of the Capitol while Congress was in session fulfilling its constitutionally mandated reading of the confirmed electoral votes received from each of 50 states.

Larger questions about the trustworthiness of security forces in the U.S., and how to handle rogue Oathkeeper-type police organizations, are of course also relevant. Here is a Wikipedia article on the “Oathkeepers”:

Oath Keepers - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Wiki article begins: “Oath Keepers is an American far-right anti-government militia organization. The group describes itself as non-partisan association of current and former military, police, and first responders, who pledge to fulfill the oath that all military and police take in order to "defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic". It encourages its members to not obey orders which they believe would violate the United States Constitution. The organization claims a membership of 35,000 as of 2016.”

 

[Donald H]

The number of off-duty police officers and soldiers who attended the rally was of course far greater than the 13 or so who are reportedly currently being investigated for actual rioting. There is no question that those who merely attended the Trump rally on their own time, yet refused to break onto Capitol property were not committing any crime. Stupidity or just being misled by a demagogic President is not by itself a crime.

How many of the 25,000 military people surrounding the Capitol are loyal to their country and how many disloyal?
I think the momentum is still with the country but there's little denying that it's going to be a close call to a fascist challenge to America's democracy and takeover has been narrowly avoided. (probably, is the best we can say)

But why? There's no other explanation for it other than discontent of the working class being cheated out of a piece of the American pie.

If both sides could identify with that fact then the solution wouldn't be far off.

Fact is, Trump promised it but didn't deliver, and neither will Biden.

 

[Correll]

The number of off-duty police officers and soldiers who attended the rally was of course far greater than the 13 or so who are reportedly currently being investigated for actual rioting. There is no question that those who merely attended the Trump rally on their own time, yet refused to break onto Capitol property were not committing any crime. Stupidity or just being misled by a demagogic President is not by itself a crime.

How many of the 25,000 military people surrounding the Capitol are loyal to their country and how many disloyal?
I think the momentum is still with the country but there's little denying that it's going to be a close call to a fascist challenge to America's democracy and takeover has been narrowly avoided. (probably, is the best we can say)

But why? There's no other explanation for it other than discontent of the working class being cheated out of a piece of the American pie.

If both sides could identify with that fact then the solution wouldn't be far off.

Fact is, Trump promised it but didn't deliver, and neither will Biden.

Trump was making good progress before covid.

 

[9thIDdoc]

This is a CDC discussion, and there have been too many personal attacks. I have reported the worst.

The issue raised concerns police and military who supported Trump’s attempt to remain in office unconstitutionally, who participated in or assisted the invasion and disruption of the Capitol while Congress was in session fulfilling its constitutionally mandated reading of the confirmed electoral votes received from each of 50 states.

Larger questions about the trustworthiness of security forces in the U.S., and how to handle rogue Oathkeeper-type police organizations, are of course also relevant. Here is a Wikipedia article on the “Oathkeepers”:

Oath Keepers - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Wiki article begins: “Oath Keepers is an American far-right anti-government militia organization. The group describes itself as non-partisan association of current and former military, police, and first responders, who pledge to fulfill the oath that all military and police take in order to "defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic". It encourages its members to not obey orders which they believe would violate the United States Constitution. The organization claims a membership of 35,000 as of 2016.”

The issue raised concerns police and military who supported Trump’s attempt to remain in office unconstitutionally, who participated in or assisted the invasion and disruption of the Capitol while Congress was in session fulfilling its constitutionally mandated reading of the confirmed electoral votes received from each of 50 states.

Are you incapable of trying to prove a point without begging the question? Where exactly is there any proof that President Trump has done anything unconstitutional or encouraged others to do so? When and where exactly was it legally proven in court that any law was broken or the Constitution violated? And by what legal principle do you claim that anybody anywhere is responsible for crimes or (more likely) misdemeanors committed those people who entered the Capitol building? Would you also hold them responsible for the homicide committed by the Capitol cop? If being pro-Constitution makes you "anti-government" (NOT a given in my opinion) then I am proud to be "anti-government". Seems as though more than a few folks (including Congress) have spent the last four years actively "anti-government". Apparently some folks need to be reminded that members of government have sworn the same oath as the police and military. Politicians are sworn to uphold the Constitution; not the other way around. And last I heard LEOs and military were allowed to hold their own personal political and personal opinions and probably would even if not "allowed". If there is any evidence that the Oath Keepers are anything other than who and what they say they are?

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Tom Paine 1949 wrote:

The issue raised concerns police and military who supported Trump’s attempt to remain in office unconstitutionally, who participated in or assisted the invasion and disruption of the Capitol while Congress was in session fulfilling its constitutionally mandated reading of the confirmed electoral votes received from each of 50 states.

9thIDdoc responded:

“Are you incapable of trying to prove a point without begging the question? Where exactly is there any proof that President Trump has done anything unconstitutional or encouraged others to do so? When and where exactly was it legally proven in court that any law was broken or the Constitution violated? And by what legal principle do you claim that anybody anywhere is responsible for crimes or (more likely) misdemeanors committed those people who entered the Capitol building?.... And last I heard LEOs and military were allowed to hold their own personal political and personal opinions and probably would even if not "allowed". If there is any evidence that the Oath Keepers are anything other than who and what they say they are?”

9thIDdoc also wrote:

“Was there a riot? If so prove it first before ranting about the consiquinsies.”

Tom Paine 1949 responds:

Thanks for expressing your opinions.

This thread is NOT about providing “proof that President Trump has done anything unconstitutional or encouraged others to do so.”

Nor is this a trial setting where I or anybody need provide evidence “legally proven in court that any law was broken or the Constitution violated” ... on Jan. 6th.

Nor do I think it necessary in the slightest to “prove” there “was” “a riot” — that is self evident.

We all know — indeed we saw and heard with our own eyes and ears — what happened on January 6th and in the months leading up to it.

You apparently still can’t accept that serious laws were broken and red lines crossed, that anything “unconstitutional” occurred when mobs invaded, broke through police lines, and violated the constitutionally-mandated reading of each state’s confirmed electoral votes inside the Capitol building, threatening lawmakers in both parties.

As for off-duty police, national guardsmen and such groups as the Oathkeepers — they were definitely at Trump’s rally, but apparently the Oathkeepers at least did not enter the Capitol Building itself. Ongoing investigation will reveal more about the extent of criminal activity by any organized groups and possibly provide evidence for charges. You don’t seem to want to discuss this question concretely, or even historically. The Wiki article provides evidence about what the Oathkeepers do and “say they are.”

My hope is that we will see a peaceful transition to the new Biden administration, that there are no bloody rightwing domestic terrorist attacks or assassinations in the next period, no armed militia demonstrations against any political party, no seizing of state houses, etc. Certainly the “Establishment” is geared up at present to deal with such events and the internet is being effectively “policed” to prevent them. Any such activities, imo, will just play into the hands of the corporate “security state.”

There is a grave danger that new permanent and severe censorship practices and new police state powers / laws will result from this very sad experience. That should be opposed by both progressives and libertarians.

 

[Donald H]

Trump was making good progress before covid.

Baloney! You're still showing you've been snookered by promises.[/QUOTE]

Be it Trump or Biden, there's no relief coming until the American people force it on their president and congress.

Americans still think that the money they should have or the reasonable amount of wealth they don't have, is other people's money.

OPM!

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Tom Paine 1949 wrote:

The issue raised concerns police and military who supported Trump’s attempt to remain in office unconstitutionally, who participated in or assisted the invasion and disruption of the Capitol while Congress was in session fulfilling its constitutionally mandated reading of the confirmed electoral votes received from each of 50 states.

9thIDdoc responded:

“Are you incapable of trying to prove a point without begging the question? Where exactly is there any proof that President Trump has done anything unconstitutional or encouraged others to do so? When and where exactly was it legally proven in court that any law was broken or the Constitution violated? And by what legal principle do you claim that anybody anywhere is responsible for crimes or (more likely) misdemeanors committed those people who entered the Capitol building?.... And last I heard LEOs and military were allowed to hold their own personal political and personal opinions and probably would even if not "allowed". If there is any evidence that the Oath Keepers are anything other than who and what they say they are?”

9thIDdoc also wrote:

“Was there a riot? If so prove it first before ranting about the consiquinsies.”

Tom Paine 1949 responds:

Thanks for expressing your opinions.

This thread is NOT about providing “proof that President Trump has done anything unconstitutional or encouraged others to do so.”

Nor is this a trial setting where I or anybody need provide evidence “legally proven in court that any law was broken or the Constitution violated” ... on Jan. 6th.

Nor do I think it necessary in the slightest to “prove” there “was” “a riot” — that is self evident.

We all know — indeed we saw and heard with our own eyes and ears — what happened on January 6th and in the months leading up to it.

You apparently still can’t accept that serious laws were broken and red lines crossed, that anything “unconstitutional” occurred when mobs invaded, broke through police lines, and violated the constitutionally-mandated reading of each state’s confirmed electoral votes inside the Capitol building, threatening lawmakers in both parties.

As for off-duty police, national guardsmen and such groups as the Oathkeepers — they were definitely at Trump’s rally, but apparently the Oathkeepers at least did not enter the Capitol Building itself. Ongoing investigation will reveal more about the extent of criminal activity by any organized groups and possibly provide evidence for charges. You don’t seem to want to discuss this question concretely, or even historically. The Wiki article provides evidence about what the Oathkeepers do and “say they are.”

My hope is that we will see a peaceful transition to the new Biden administration, that there are no bloody rightwing domestic terrorist attacks or assassinations in the next period, no armed militia demonstrations against any political party, no seizing of state houses, etc. Certainly the “Establishment” is geared up at present to deal with such events and the internet is being effectively “policed” to prevent them. Any such activities, imo, will just play into the hands of the corporate “security state.”

There is a grave danger that new permanent and severe censorship practices and new police state powers / laws will result from this very sad experience. That should be opposed by both progressives and libertarians.

I was mistaken earlier when I wrote that the “Oath Keepers” were at the Trump rally but apparently “did not enter the Capitol Building.” It now seems clear that at least some prominent Oath Keeper members DID INDEED enter the Capitol:

Prosecutors say Oath Keepers militia members conspired in U.S. Capitol siege

Prosecutors on Tuesday said three people affiliated with a far-right militia group conspired to breach the U.S. Capitol, the first time they have directly accused people of organizing the violent Jan. 6 uprising that left five people dead.

www.reuters.com

 

[Donald H]

I was mistaken earlier when I wrote that the “Oath Keepers” were at the Trump rally but apparently “did not enter the Capitol Building.” It now seems clear that at least some prominent Oath Keeper members DID INDEED enter the Capitol:

Prosecutors say Oath Keepers militia members conspired in U.S. Capitol siege

Prosecutors on Tuesday said three people affiliated with a far-right militia group conspired to breach the U.S. Capitol, the first time they have directly accused people of organizing the violent Jan. 6 uprising that left five people dead.

www.reuters.com

[/QUOTE]

After Trump is disposed of there will be a lot more answers to just 'who' the leaders were. The best thing America's government can do is hand out the maximum 20 years sentece to the leaders of the attempted insurrection.
And stiff fines with jail sentences to the childish idiots who followed them into the Capitol.

The extreme right agenda must be nipped in the bud before they start putting on the bedsheets and pointy hat clown costumes again!

 

[Correll]

Tom Paine 1949 wrote:

The issue raised concerns police and military who supported Trump’s attempt to remain in office unconstitutionally, who participated in or assisted the invasion and disruption of the Capitol while Congress was in session fulfilling its constitutionally mandated reading of the confirmed electoral votes received from each of 50 states.

9thIDdoc responded:

“Are you incapable of trying to prove a point without begging the question? Where exactly is there any proof that President Trump has done anything unconstitutional or encouraged others to do so? When and where exactly was it legally proven in court that any law was broken or the Constitution violated? And by what legal principle do you claim that anybody anywhere is responsible for crimes or (more likely) misdemeanors committed those people who entered the Capitol building?.... And last I heard LEOs and military were allowed to hold their own personal political and personal opinions and probably would even if not "allowed". If there is any evidence that the Oath Keepers are anything other than who and what they say they are?”

9thIDdoc also wrote:

“Was there a riot? If so prove it first before ranting about the consiquinsies.”

Tom Paine 1949 responds:

Thanks for expressing your opinions.

This thread is NOT about providing “proof that President Trump has done anything unconstitutional or encouraged others to do so.”

Nor is this a trial setting where I or anybody need provide evidence “legally proven in court that any law was broken or the Constitution violated” ... on Jan. 6th.

Nor do I think it necessary in the slightest to “prove” there “was” “a riot” — that is self evident.

We all know — indeed we saw and heard with our own eyes and ears — what happened on January 6th and in the months leading up to it.

You apparently still can’t accept that serious laws were broken and red lines crossed, that anything “unconstitutional” occurred when mobs invaded, broke through police lines, and violated the constitutionally-mandated reading of each state’s confirmed electoral votes inside the Capitol building, threatening lawmakers in both parties.

As for off-duty police, national guardsmen and such groups as the Oathkeepers — they were definitely at Trump’s rally, but apparently the Oathkeepers at least did not enter the Capitol Building itself. Ongoing investigation will reveal more about the extent of criminal activity by any organized groups and possibly provide evidence for charges. You don’t seem to want to discuss this question concretely, or even historically. The Wiki article provides evidence about what the Oathkeepers do and “say they are.”

My hope is that we will see a peaceful transition to the new Biden administration, that there are no bloody rightwing domestic terrorist attacks or assassinations in the next period, no armed militia demonstrations against any political party, no seizing of state houses, etc. Certainly the “Establishment” is geared up at present to deal with such events and the internet is being effectively “policed” to prevent them. Any such activities, imo, will just play into the hands of the corporate “security state.”

There is a grave danger that new permanent and severe censorship practices and new police state powers / laws will result from this very sad experience. That should be opposed by both progressives and libertarians.

I was mistaken earlier when I wrote that the “Oath Keepers” were at the Trump rally but apparently “did not enter the Capitol Building.” It now seems clear that at least some prominent Oath Keeper members DID INDEED enter the Capitol:

Prosecutors say Oath Keepers militia members conspired in U.S. Capitol siege

Prosecutors on Tuesday said three people affiliated with a far-right militia group conspired to breach the U.S. Capitol, the first time they have directly accused people of organizing the violent Jan. 6 uprising that left five people dead.

www.reuters.com

And by "some" you mean "one".

IF you assume that all accused people are guilty.