Obama going head on with somali pirates

Munin

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Dec 5, 2008
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WASHINGTON — President Obama vowed Monday to “halt the rise of piracy” off the coast of Africa following the dramatic rescue of an American merchant captain, foreshadowing a longer and potentially more treacherous struggle ahead as he weighs a series of problematic options.

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With the “Black Hawk Down” episode in Somalia still etched in the American consciousness 16 years after two helicopters were shot down and 18 American soldiers were killed, Mr. Obama and his advisers are wary of becoming deeply involved in the region again. That wariness comes at a time when Mr. Obama is already trying to end a war in Iraq and win another in Afghanistan. White House officials on Monday played down suggestions that the United States could attack pirate bases on shore, portraying that as premature at best.

Other options that the administration has before it, according to experts, are deploying more ships to patrol the region, pressing commercial shipping companies to stop paying ransoms and to do more to defend their vessels, get other nations to help capture pirates and bring them to justice, and doing more to build up a fledgling transitional government in Somalia.

“All I can tell you is I am confident we will be spending a lot of time in the Situation Room over the next few weeks trying to figure out what in the world to do about this problem,” Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates told students and faculty members at the Marine Corps War College in Quantico, Va., according to a military news service. While the national security team discusses the long-term challenge, the Justice Department said it was deliberating whether to try the lone surviving pirate in the United States or to turn him over to Kenya for trial. Mr. Gates said the four pirates were 17 to 19 years old, but he did not give the age of the one who surrendered to Navy sailors before the fatal shootout Sunday.

The rescue of Captain Phillips drew widespread praise for the Navy and Mr. Obama, but some experts warned that it could escalate the campaign by Somali pirates, who have vowed to take revenge on Americans and are holding more than 200 hostages from other countries.

Mr. Obama praised Captain Phillips for his “courage and leadership and selfless concern for his crew,” and he said he was “very proud” of the Navy and other American agencies involved in the operation.

“I want to be very clear that we are resolved to halt the rise of piracy in that region,” Mr. Obama said. “And to achieve that goal, we’re going to have to continue to work with our partners to prevent future attacks. We have to continue to be prepared to confront them when they arise. And we have to ensure that those who commit acts of piracy are held accountable for their crimes.”

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“There is no purely military solution to it,” Mr. Gates said at the Marine Corps War College. “And as long as you’ve got this incredible number of poor people and the risks are relatively small, there’s really no way in my view to control it unless you get something on land that begins to change the equation for these kids.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/14/world/africa/14pirates.html?_r=1&hp


MOMBASA, Kenya (Map, News) - President Barack Obama vowed Monday "to halt the rise of piracy," while shipmates of the rescued American freighter captain called for tough action against Somali bandits who are preying on one of the world's busiest sea routes.
Obama appeared to move up the piracy issue on his agenda, saying the United States would work with nations elsewhere in the world.

"I want to be very clear that we are resolved to halt the rise of piracy in that region and to achieve that goal, we're going to have to continue to work with our partners to prevent future attacks," Obama said at a Washington news conference.

The U.S. was considering options including adding Navy gunships along the Somali coastline and launching a campaign to disable pirate "mother ships," according to military officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because no decisions have been made.

Some military strategists believe it may ultimately be necessary to attack the pirates' bases on land in Somalia. But few international allies have the appetite for another land operation in Somalia, where a U.S. military foray in the early 1990s ended in humiliation. And the cost in civilian casualties would likely be extremely high, some warn.

"That would be nuts," said Larry Johnson, a former CIA agent and State Department counterterrorism specialist. "These people are not organized into any military force, they are intermingled with women and children. You're talking about wiping out villages."

The chief mate aboard the US-flagged Maersk Alabama was among those urging strong U.S. action.

"It's time for us to step in and put an end to this crisis," Shane Murphy said. "It's a crisis. Wake up."

...

The American ship had been carrying food aid bound for Rwanda, Somalia and Uganda when the ordeal began Wednesday hundreds of miles off Somalia's eastern coast. As the pirates clambered aboard and shot in the air, Phillips told his crew to lock themselves in a cabin and surrendered himself to safeguard his men.

Phillips was then taken hostage in an enclosed lifeboat that was soon shadowed by three U.S. warships and a helicopter. Navy SEAL snipers parachuted from their aircraft into the sea, and were picked up by the USS Bainbridge, a senior U.S. official said.

U.S. Defense officials said snipers got the go-ahead to fire after one pirate held an AK-47 close to Phillips' back. The military officials asked not to be named because they were not authorized to publicly discuss the case.

Snipers killed three pirates with single shots shortly after sailors on the Bainbridge saw the hostage-takers "with their heads and shoulders exposed," Gortney said.


It was not immediately known when or how Phillips would return home.

Pirates hold some 230 foreign sailors still held hostage in more than a dozen ships anchored off lawless Somalia.

Vilma de Guzman worried about her husband, one of 23 Filipino sailors held hostage since Nov. 10 on the chemical tanker MT Stolt Strength.

"The pirates might vent their anger on them," she said. "Those released are lucky, but what about those who remain captive?"
http://www.examiner.com/a-1958841~Obama_vows_to_fight_piracy_after_captain_s_rescue.html


Another side question is: what will happen with the hostage? (the captured pirate)
Will he be trialed in the US? Or in Kenya?
 
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1993 is an example of why you don't retreat or run from a problem. By doing so, the end result is present day Somalia. There is varying alternatives with consequences.
 
All talk and no action. We can easily destroy all pirate vessels and lay waste to any Pirate safe haven. And we can land in Somalia to do a mission and then.... wait for it..... wait for it...... LEAVE after the raid.

Obama is a Coward. I repeat if any American Merchant Marine dies because Obama did not act, I consider that a High Crime punishable by Impeachment for totally failing as the leader of this Country.
 
Munin, you show an incrediible talent at using google, the depth of thought involved in coming up with the correct words to google must be commended.

Obama's decisive action was to consult LAWYERS and draft legal documents. Our military will now operate under the direction of Obama's legal team.

Obama's cabinet essentially being Clinton's cabinet we now see the Obama will CHANGE policy back to the policies of Bill Clinton that led to 9/11.

Until a crime is commited we will not be able to do a thing, and then we will use the military to assist the FBI to arrest "suspects", who will be innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

This is a simple fact, as we see that the FBI was on the navy vessel and as Munin points out the 16 year old boy will be tried as a child in a court of law.

I am sure the clever lawyers will easily be able to get the boy released, for the boy obviously was coereced into being a pirate by the older pirates.

Obama's decisive action was consulting with lawyers.
 
And we can land in Somalia to do a mission and then.... wait for it..... wait for it...... LEAVE after the raid.

That is kind of a problem, this already happened in the past but due to mr Clinton and the incompetence of congress the US and international military forces pulled out of somalia after the nightmare (at least in the eyes of the american politicians) of "black hawk down".

The True Story Of Black Hawk Down

I don't think it will be easy to order an in land somali attack, if it isn't politically impossible.
 
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I am sure the clever lawyers will easily be able to get the boy released, for the boy obviously was coereced into being a pirate by the older pirates.

Obama's decisive action was consulting with lawyers.

This isn't sure yet, it could be that the pirate will be trialed in Kenya, where he would have a much different treatment from the justice system.
 
And we can land in Somalia to do a mission and then.... wait for it..... wait for it...... LEAVE after the raid.

That is kind of a problem, this already happened in the passed but due to mr Clinton and the incompetence of congress the US and international military forces pulled out of somalia after the nightmare (at least in the eyes of the american politicians) of "black hawk down".

The True Story Of Black Hawk Down

I don't think it will be easy to order an in land somali attack, if it isn't politically impossible.

Operation Gothic Serpent was a textbook example of everything that can go wrong happening in one operation. Clinton's competence had nothing to do with it. If anyone is to blame, the US military vastly underestimated Aidid's capabilities. The tactic used was based on perfect timing and Aidid's people threw that off when they blocked the escape convoys from getting to the pickup points in Mogadishu. The US relied on surprise as the winning factor and when it didn't work, the fact they had no contingency resulted in "Blackhawk Down."

We're already stuck in two nations trying to build governments; yet, we should get involved in another?

The most prudent and cost-effective strategy right now would be to arm the crews or provide the ships with armed, physical security. Being attacked by the USS Minnow with a handful of idiots armed with small arms doesn't really justify the amount of money and resources it takes to divert US Naval assets to try and patrol the Gulf of Aden.
 
And we can land in Somalia to do a mission and then.... wait for it..... wait for it...... LEAVE after the raid.

That is kind of a problem, this already happened in the passed but due to mr Clinton and the incompetence of congress the US and international military forces pulled out of somalia after the nightmare (at least in the eyes of the american politicians) of "black hawk down".

The True Story Of Black Hawk Down

I don't think it will be easy to order an in land somali attack, if it isn't politically impossible.

Operation Gothic Serpent was a textbook example of everything that can go wrong happening in one operation. Clinton's competence had nothing to do with it. If anyone is to blame, the US military vastly underestimated Aidid's capabilities. The tactic used was based on perfect timing and Aidid's people threw that off when they blocked the escape convoys from getting to the pickup points in Mogadishu. The US relied on surprise as the winning factor and when it didn't work, the fact they had no contingency resulted in "Blackhawk Down."

We're already stuck in two nations trying to build governments; yet, we should get involved in another?

The most prudent and cost-effective strategy right now would be to arm the crews or provide the ships with armed, physical security. Being attacked by the USS Minnow with a handful of idiots armed with small arms doesn't really justify the amount of money and resources it takes to divert US Naval assets to try and patrol the Gulf of Aden.

True, but clinton didn't finish the mission that initially failed (he didn't kill the target). I m not sure wether he should have gone in again or not, since the initial purpose of US troops being in somalia was helping the somali people (giving food aid, centralized government). Now they ve turned hostile, the only effect that the attack would have would be similar to genocide.

What do you think? Should Clinton have ordered to revenge the dead americans? Or did he do the right thing?


The problem with arming civilian ships & sailors is that it is not allowed by international shipping laws. The other issue is that the sailors of trading vessels aren't trained for attacking pirates, while we have the people that are trained for this in the Navy.
 
All talk and no action. We can easily destroy all pirate vessels and lay waste to any Pirate safe haven. And we can land in Somalia to do a mission and then.... wait for it..... wait for it...... LEAVE after the raid.

Obama is a Coward. I repeat if any American Merchant Marine dies because Obama did not act, I consider that a High Crime punishable by Impeachment for totally failing as the leader of this Country.

You know what?

You don't half as much about the military as you imagine you do.

God it's amazing how fucking stupidly hostile and ignorant you are.
 
1993 is an example of why you don't retreat or run from a problem. By doing so, the end result is present day Somalia. There is varying alternatives with consequences.

Gotta agree with you. We lost soldiers - so what we should've done was send in more soldiers and bombed the fuck out of the place. Clinton taught us if we get a bloody nose, we run away from the fight.

I guess he was worried about a Vietnam or something.

We need to go back to Somalia and finish the job. Take a couple of Batalians that were on their way back to the states and tell them that these Somali assholes are the only things preventing them from seeing their families. Our Army and Marines will make quick work of these morons and Africa will be safe again.
 
And we can land in Somalia to do a mission and then.... wait for it..... wait for it...... LEAVE after the raid.

That is kind of a problem, this already happened in the passed but due to mr Clinton and the incompetence of congress the US and international military forces pulled out of somalia after the nightmare (at least in the eyes of the american politicians) of "black hawk down".

The True Story Of Black Hawk Down

I don't think it will be easy to order an in land somali attack, if it isn't politically impossible.

Operation Gothic Serpent was a textbook example of everything that can go wrong happening in one operation. Clinton's competence had nothing to do with it. If anyone is to blame, the US military vastly underestimated Aidid's capabilities. The tactic used was based on perfect timing and Aidid's people threw that off when they blocked the escape convoys from getting to the pickup points in Mogadishu. The US relied on surprise as the winning factor and when it didn't work, the fact they had no contingency resulted in "Blackhawk Down."

We're already stuck in two nations trying to build governments; yet, we should get involved in another?

The most prudent and cost-effective strategy right now would be to arm the crews or provide the ships with armed, physical security. Being attacked by the USS Minnow with a handful of idiots armed with small arms doesn't really justify the amount of money and resources it takes to divert US Naval assets to try and patrol the Gulf of Aden.

I asked about this in another pirate thread and didn't see a response... is there actually some reason these cargo ships don't have guns on them? I watched CNN a LOT during the crisis and all they said the ships had was water cannons and loudspeakers... WTF?
 
Unless we are willing to govern these tiny nations all the food and military dropped on them wont make a difference.

Not all people are ready for self rule.
 
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I asked about this in another pirate thread and didn't see a response... is there actually some reason these cargo ships don't have guns on them? I watched CNN a LOT during the crisis and all they said the ships had was water cannons and loudspeakers... WTF?

Two major factors influence the reason why merchantmen are unarmed. If they were, the insurance liability would be colossal, but more importantly, national and local laws at the ports can be quite restrictive. In many places, armed merchant ships would not be allowed into port since national laws apply, rather than maritime law.

The loudspeaker you refer to is a long-range acoustic device (LRAD). It's like a satellite dish that blast its target with a precise beam of sound ramped up to give excrutiating pain those in its path.
 
I asked about this in another pirate thread and didn't see a response... is there actually some reason these cargo ships don't have guns on them? I watched CNN a LOT during the crisis and all they said the ships had was water cannons and loudspeakers... WTF?

Two major factors influence the reason why merchantmen are unarmed. If they were, the insurance liability would be colossal, but more importantly, national and local laws at the ports can be quite restrictive. In many places, armed merchant ships would not be allowed into port since national laws apply, rather than maritime law.

The loudspeaker you refer to is a long-range acoustic device (LRAD). It's like a satellite dish that blast its target with a precise beam of sound ramped up to give excrutiating pain those in its path.

Hmmm... thanks for the answer.

That really sucks. I can see the need for security in the ports, but we MUST stop this piracy. Seems like a real conundrum. :confused:
 
I asked about this in another pirate thread and didn't see a response... is there actually some reason these cargo ships don't have guns on them? I watched CNN a LOT during the crisis and all they said the ships had was water cannons and loudspeakers... WTF?

Two major factors influence the reason why merchantmen are unarmed. If they were, the insurance liability would be colossal, but more importantly, national and local laws at the ports can be quite restrictive. In many places, armed merchant ships would not be allowed into port since national laws apply, rather than maritime law.

The loudspeaker you refer to is a long-range acoustic device (LRAD). It's like a satellite dish that blast its target with a precise beam of sound ramped up to give excrutiating pain those in its path.

You are right about entry into ports but insurance will be to high, where do you get that from.
 
You are right about entry into ports but insurance will be to high, where do you get that from.

It's a fact, arming ships will increase insurance costs, since insurance must now cover a range of liability and death situations, but don't take my word. It's easy enough to check out on the Internet. Mercantile marine insurance would probably be a good starter. .
 
I think this guy says it rather well..

“There is no purely military solution to it,” Mr. Gates said at the Marine Corps War College. “And as long as you’ve got this incredible number of poor people and the risks are relatively small, there’s really no way in my view to control it unless you get something on land that begins to change the equation for these kids.”

While we can undoutably kick the pirates asses all day long, that in itself will NOT solve the problem.

Like most international problems this nation faces, the military is AT BEST only a temporary solution.

Somalia is in a state of anarchy.

The solution to the pirates is to establish order in that nation.

But until somebody has something to lose, there's damned little we can do about people doing desperate things in order to surive.

We cannot kill 'em all, folks. Not even if we kill every pirate. Because every day a new person in Somalia, one we didn't kill, will decide that they have to do something to find a mean to live and since there is nothing productive for them to, they turn to crime.

Somalia is the number one response to Objectivist Libertarian philosophical thought.

Objectibvist Libertarians apparently cannot understand that people with nothing to lose will not simply go away and die.

They will be our problems as long as they have NO CHOICE.

Liberalism is not kneejerking charity...liberalism is enlightened SELF INTEREST.

Liberalism knows that people need to have something to lose before they'll sign onto the society they live in.
 
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I think the only way to completely solve this problem is to go inland and deal with them where they live. Yes, we can increase patrols, we can do a better job of arming our merchant ships, but, even with all of our advance tools, we cannot totally stop this problem on the sea alone. Just my opinion.

Now is Obama willing to do this? Should Obama do this? Or should we just protect ships flying our flag and not worry about the others and the overall problem? Or should a league of nations go inland and deal with the problem completely?

Many questions.

I commend the ships captain and crew for creating a situation by their actions, where our military had an opportunity to respond. And for our men and women in arms, stand proud, it was a well executed mission with a show of very talented skills. Excellent marksmanship. Finally I commend Obama for giving the order to rescue our citizen at all costs.
 

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