Now, that's an ally

[Phoenall]

Originally posted by toastman
3) When did Abbass say that he would sign a peace deal if Israel goes back to the '67 borders?? He wants East Jerusalem, Right of Return, Release of thousands of prisoners....

Excellent summation, toastman... couldn't have said it better myself..

You just gave a perfect description of a peaceful dismantlement of a racist state and its replacement by a democratic one (hopefully).

And then the Jews would be wiped out and Israel destroyed and the ummah would have 23 states to rule over. Will you call a halt when the psychopathic muslim is raining bombs down on your head and demanding you get out of their country because allah gave it to them in 623CE. There would be no democracy if Israel gave in to all the muslim demands because islam does not do democracy, it only does violence, rape and murder.

 

[Phoenall]

Originally posted by pbel
Toast, Abbas has accepted and been granted an observer State to the 67 borders. Clearly he has then accepted a de-facto Israeli State to her 67 borders.

Abbas is the "leader" of an arab Bantustan... his words and the documents he signs are not worth a roll of toilet paper.

The day he signs an agreement renouncing to the right of the palestinian people to live in the western half of their homeland will be the day he won't be representing anybody in Palestine but himself.

It will be the last day in office of a totally delegitimised politician whose agreement will be nothing but a piece of paper solemnly ignored by his people.

How can you claim it is their homeland when many have never even lived there. It is like me claiming that your home is actually my property because I had a shit on a plane as it flew over that area. That is the basis of most of the muslims claims to property rights in Palestine, and a rusty key mass produced in the 1960's. Pre 1948 the Jews owned the land and farmed it, they employed itinerant muslim labourers as and when needed. The muslims lived in tents and went were the work was, constantly on the move and never settling down. The vast majority of the muslims, about 95%, owned nothing but the clothes on their backs and were wandering vagabonds and thieves. Along comes the arab armies who promise them the Jewish farms and houses if they leave the area and give their sons to the army to act as soldiers. Then catastrophe the Jews win and the muslims are unwanted by even their own, so they are crammed into prison camps and systematically starved and abused by the arabs. Then they hit on the bright idea of claiming right of return to land they have never owned or even seen. They got the UN to make new rules just for them so they could claim Jewish land, how can an itinerant labourer who had wandered into the area two years prior to 1967 claim that they owned Jerusalem or Tel Aviv when they have never been any further than gaza. At the end of the day Israel is Jewish and the same laws apply to arab muslms there as apply to Jews in Saudi Arabia. The P.A have stated that no Jew will be allowed to live in Palestine so this means no muslim should be allowed to live In Israel.

 

[Phoenall]

Originally posted by Phoenall
To cause a complete FUBAR Isreal could now demand 1968 borders which destroys Palestine completely, or the agreements they have with Egypt and Jordan.

It is indeed, Phoenall... but not for long.

They could even demand 1948 borders, or 1921 borders and make the same noises the P.A do when the demands are not met. Israel has shown that they are honourable and malleable when treated fairly, just look at the peace deals with Egypt and Jordan. Now why cant the P.A be as accommodating and get 98% of their demands set in stone for all eternity. It looks like they prefer constant war and bloodshed because it is easier than having to work for a living. Cut of all their aid and watch them slowly starve to death in a land with more than adequate arable land.

 

[Phoenall]

Toast, America has succumbed to the vigor's of endless wars with Muslim Nations...We lost Iraq by getting Saddam for Israel and empowered Iran...We lost Afghanistan chasing Al Qaida simply because there is no military solution in wars against essentially civilians.

Wars of attrition are won by numbers not weapons. precisely Israel's dilemma in the ME...


The solution is simple, sign a peace to the near 67 borders and share Jerusalem or Internationalize it. Trade with the nations surrounding Israel, help them prosper and change attitudes. As attitudes change, terrorism will dissipate.

In a couple of generations Israel will become part of the family like she was 2,000 years ago.

1) The Iraq war was for the U.S , not Israel. Just because ousting Saddam kind of benefits Israel, that doesn't mean the war was for them. And even if the U.S DID go to war to benefit another country, it is still the fault of the U.S, and the blame should still be put on them for the outcome of the war.

2) You didn't really address what I said.


3) When did Abbass say that he would sign a peace deal if Israel goes back to the '67 borders?? He wants East Jerusalem, Right of Return, Release of thousands of prisoners....

Have you read the names of the dual citizenship signatories of the PNAC letters demanding the overthrow of Saddam?

Now Israel wants us to take out Iran... as does KSA and the GCC states.

Have you read the names of the 4 million muslims with dual nationality in the UK, who demand that we give them our country .

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Toast, America has succumbed to the vigor's of endless wars with Muslim Nations...We lost Iraq by getting Saddam for Israel and empowered Iran...We lost Afghanistan chasing Al Qaida simply because there is no military solution in wars against essentially civilians.

Wars of attrition are won by numbers not weapons. precisely Israel's dilemma in the ME...


The solution is simple, sign a peace to the near 67 borders and share Jerusalem or Internationalize it. Trade with the nations surrounding Israel, help them prosper and change attitudes. As attitudes change, terrorism will dissipate.

In a couple of generations Israel will become part of the family like she was 2,000 years ago.

1) The Iraq war was for the U.S , not Israel. Just because ousting Saddam kind of benefits Israel, that doesn't mean the war was for them. And even if the U.S DID go to war to benefit another country, it is still the fault of the U.S, and the blame should still be put on them for the outcome of the war.

2) You didn't really address what I said.


3) When did Abbass say that he would sign a peace deal if Israel goes back to the '67 borders?? He wants East Jerusalem, Right of Return, Release of thousands of prisoners....

Have you read the names of the dual citizenship signatories of the PNAC letters demanding the overthrow of Saddam?

Now Israel wants us to take out Iran... as does KSA and the GCC states.

Please scroll up and read my post where I pointed out that there were several reasons for us initiating the Second Iraq War.

 

[RoccoR]

José, et al,

Perspective!

The mere existence of a jewish supremacist state in Palestine that keeps the unwanted ethnic group herded in enclaves and that engages in STATE TERRORISM by shooting those civilians when they try to leave the racial enclaves assigned to them using security issues as an excuse provides FULL JUSTIFICATION for armed struggle against it.

(COMMENT)

Israel is not a "Jewish Supremacist State." It is a "Jewish State" that was attacked and under siege from (literally) the minute it exercised its rights to self-determination and pursued the steps preparatory to independence (even threatened before) as outlined by the UN Palestine Commission and the General Assembly.

Whether the armed struggle has a terrorist element (targeting of civilians) or not in no way invalidates the struggle itself although it tarnishes its reputation.

(COMMENT)

You don't reward criminals for coercion and criminal behaviors.

Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) practicing terrorism describe their actions as struggle for liberation and seek to be considered and treated as protected persons under the Geneva Convention rather than terrorists (Jihadist and Fedayeen) or criminals. They often depict Isreal and their allies as — the aliens (foreigners or external interference), — as the “true terrorists”.

In terms of the philosophy behind the HoAP, the smell test to the Jihadist and Fedayeen is not what is done (massacres, piracy, hijackings, suicide bombings, armed insurgent attacks and rocket launches), but rather the objective, goal or cause. If the ultimate aim is liberation and justice from their perspective, the violence used (any means necessary) in order to attain it is not terrorism but justified. On the other hand, as they see Israel and its allies, the violence aiming at maintaining oppression (quarantine and countermeasures) or injustice (occupation and security cordons), or some of the “structural violence” (barriers, blockades and checkpoints) embodying it, would be viewed as the true government sponsored terrorism. The HoAP (Jihadist and Fedayeen) see no appreciation in the suppression of HoAP activities to protect the peaceful citizens of the Jewish State constituted under international law; as implemented by the UNPC.

Reference: Encyclopedia of Philosophy Mon Oct 22, 2007; Stanford University substantive revision Mon Aug 8, 2011​

But let's not forget that the discriminated ethnic group is responding to the state terrorism inflicted on them.

(COMMENT)

This, on the other hand, is the unintended consequence of the line dividing the Jews and the Arabs. It was not the cause, but the outcome of the fact that there was a difference. It was not the cause, or the intention to separate along ethnic lines, but merely a difference between the parties in conflict that was easy to latch on to and for people to understand.

Most Respectfully,
R