No, The Su-57 Isn't 'Junk:' Six Features We like On Russia's New Fighter

Daryl Hunt

Your Worst Nightmare
Oct 22, 2014
22,696
4,627
290
O.D. (Stands for Out Dere
No, The Su-57 Isn't 'Junk:' Six Features We like On Russia's New Fighter

image


Russia’s 5th generation fighter aircraft, formerly known as the T-50 and now officially named the Su-57, has been in the news a lot lately. India’s decision to finally walk away from the joint program could be a catastrophic blow to the jet’s future, which followed an abortive deployment to war-torn Syria late last February. Russia’s inability to afford decent sized production lots of the new jets and the aircraft’s ongoing engine saga also have taken their toll on the program. And above all else, the aircraft’s degree of low-observability (stealthiness) has long been in question, as it lacked many of the key features that define modern stealth fighters. But none of this conclusively means the Su-57 doesn’t have some redeemable qualities and features that are worth pointing out.

To some degree, the T-50/Su-57 is a misunderstood aircraft. The jet's lack of high-end low-observable design features doesn't mean it is irrelevant or even ineffective. Sukhoi designers have taken a 'balanced' approach to low-observability, whereby the aircraft's reduced radar signature from certain aspects becomes just another feature to be weighed against other design priorities. This very well may have been a necessity due to lack of stealthy materials science, manufacturing, and design expertise, but none-the-less the outcome is the same.



I have discussed how standoff weaponry has come into play in this equation as well, but other features have also been designed into the airframe with an apparent self-awareness of the fact that the aircraft will not be able to compete with U.S or even Chinese counterparts in terms of stealth alone. And considering how Russia's armed forces are organized and the battle doctrine behind that organization, being able to pierce deep into the most sophisticated integrated air defense networks during some sort of expeditionary operation isn't a top priority anyway.

I get asked a lot about the Su-57s level of 'stealth' in comparison to other fighter aircraft. From years of looking into this, and talking with countless people in the defense-aerospace field about their thoughts on the design, I would handicap the Su-57 as something between an International Roadmap Super Hornet or Silent Eagle and China's J-20, with it being closer to the former than the latter. But once again, stealth is just one ingredient of a complex cocktail that makes up an advanced fighter's overall capabilities set and ability to survive in various combat situations.

With all this in mind, here are five features we like on the Su-57, some of which are tailored to help overcome its lack of extreme signature reduction, at least to a certain degree.

Side Facing Cheek-Mounted Radars
The Su-57 has a feature that was long-promised for the F-22 but as of yet, has never been delivered—side-facing radars mounted below the cockpit on aircraft's 'cheeks.' These active electronically scanned array (AESA) X-band radars supplement the aircraft primarily nose-mounted X-band N036 Byelka (Squirrel) AESA radar. Supposedly these secondary radars have roughly a third of the transmit-receive modules as the jet's main radar.

image


At first glance, the utility of these radars is clear—they provide a far greater sensor field of view and thus enhance situational awareness for the Su-57's pilot. But beyond this the most basic of advantages, they allow the Su-57 pilot to execute a key tactic better than nearly any other fighter around. This tactic is usually referred to as "beaming."

Beaming is when a fighter turns 90 degrees away (perpendicular) to an enemy’s pulse doppler radar array. Because these types of radars use doppler shift to gauge a target’s relative velocity, and as such, they filter low relative velocity objects, like ground clutter, the beaming fighter, which is not moving towards or away from the enemy radar much, can enter the enemy radar’s 'doppler notch.'

This blind spot is where the radar’s velocity gate, which acts like a filter, sees a target at low enough relative motion from its perspective that it discounts it. So even though the enemy fighter may be moving at 500 mph, the right angle to the radar makes it only detect small amounts of closure. As a result, it throws this information out as it would a mountaintop. This is an especially useful tactic when the radar is positioned at a higher altitude than the beaming aircraft, and trying to lock up its target in a look-down-shoot-down scenario where ground clutter is prevalent.

The issue is that with a typically fixed AESA radar or mechanically scanned array, pulling off a beaming maneuver means the fighter doing so will lose its radar picture of the enemy it is trying to evade. Without third-party sensors feeding this data to the beaming fighter via data-link, its pilot will become blind to the tactical situation when it matters most. But what's worse is that any radar-guided missiles that have been fired from the now beaming fighter will not be able to receive mid-course updates, and thus those missiles' probability of kill will plummet, especially if fired off initially at long-range.

So fighters without cheek arrays, or novel swashplate like designs like those found on SAAB's JAS-39E/F Gripen and eventually on the Typhoon, and absence of engagement quality tracks provided by third-party sensors via data-link, the launching fighter will either have to take a more acute and less effective beaming angle in order to continue to update their missiles with their radar, or they will have to forget about updating them altogether.

Advanced AESA radars that are highly sensitive and run complex software have lessened the impact of beaming as a tactic to a limited degree. But it is still considered relevant, especially against opponents without high-end networking and surveillance support capabilities.

Considering the Su-57s lack of advanced stealth, you can see why having dedicated cheek arrays can be very useful as it can lower its detectability using extreme beaming tactics, especially at long ranges, while still actively guiding its missiles to its target.

Once again, advanced networking capabilities, especially those used by the U.S. and its allies, can lessen the effectiveness of beaming and notching in a densely surveilled battlespace that includes the presence of airborne early warning aircraft, surface and ground-based radars, and other fighter aircraft all feeding their information into a common picture that is distributed via data-link. But Russia doesn't benefit from this level of dynamic connectivity, nor do many of its potential adversaries. So including cheek mounted arrays on the Su-57 so that it can maintain situational awareness and targeting capabilities while beaming without external help makes a lot of sense.

The Su-57 is also said to incorporate L-band radar arrays blended inside its large maneuvering leading edge extensions. These radars are more for target discrimination and identification than anything else. The aircraft also has another X-band radar array in its 'stinger' tail for enhanced situational awareness, and possibly for future targeting with extremely agile 'lock-on after launch' missiles as well.

image


Infrared Search and Track
Directional Infrared Countermeasures System
Austere Airfields Welcome
3D Thrust Vectoring:
Unique Weapons Bay Configuration


This is a very long article. I posted just enough to get it started. I suggest everyone with interest go to the URL and read the whole thing. The SU-57 is the Best Gen 4.5 Fighter on the Planet. As the Author stated, is it a F-22? No. But it can take on and defeat almost anything else and maybe fight the F-35 at a distance long enough to close where it has the decided advantage. It's tough, easy to maintain, can operate off of unimproved runways and is on par with the full Tilt Silent Eagle F-15SE at almost half the cost. The downside is that the Engine needs to be replaced at a higher rate than the Western Engines and is not as dependable. If they can get this into more Air Shows, the rest of the world just might notice it and start buying it instead of the F-35 which would run the cost of the F-35 up instead of down. If you can get around it's short comings, it's a good alternative to the F-35.
 
Those wacky Russians. 3,436,425,000 Rubles ($54,000,000 USD) is a lot of money to spend on something that would end up on the ground in a million pieces, should we engage them.
 
  • Thread starter
  • Banned
  • #7
Those wacky Russians. 3,436,425,000 Rubles ($54,000,000 USD) is a lot of money to spend on something that would end up on the ground in a million pieces, should we engage them.

Military 101. Never sell your opponent short. The SU-57 is just slightly better than the F-15. It's not as good as the F-22 and who knows against the F-35 (may we never find out). It will eat a F-18 and F-16s lunch. If the Russians can get the numbers up to a decent level of them, they become a very serious threat. If they can field 500 or more, they become a severe problem since we can only field 187 F-22s. Okay, half of theirs will be grounded but so will half of our F-22s. That still means that they will have enough to make a difference in the air. They need to stop pushing the SU-35 so hard and spend their money and time on the SU-57 which is a much more deadly weapon system. Forgetting that just gets Western Pilots dead.
 
Those wacky Russians. 3,436,425,000 Rubles ($54,000,000 USD) is a lot of money to spend on something that would end up on the ground in a million pieces, should we engage them.

Military 101. Never sell your opponent short. The SU-57 is just slightly better than the F-15. It's not as good as the F-22 and who knows against the F-35 (may we never find out). It will eat a F-18 and F-16s lunch. If the Russians can get the numbers up to a decent level of them, they become a very serious threat. If they can field 500 or more, they become a severe problem since we can only field 187 F-22s. Okay, half of theirs will be grounded but so will half of our F-22s. That still means that they will have enough to make a difference in the air. They need to stop pushing the SU-35 so hard and spend their money and time on the SU-57 which is a much more deadly weapon system. Forgetting that just gets Western Pilots dead.

The Indian Air Force has already decided that the SU-57 has maintenance and serviceability problems, and claims that it's inferior to the F-22 and F-35..

Indian Air Force finds Su-57 is inferior to F-22 and F-35. - Fighter Jets Pics Videos and Complete Information Portal
https://fighterjetsworld.com/2018/03/22/indian-air-force-finds-su-57-is-inferior-to-f-22-and-f-35/
FGFA vs F-35 The Indian Air Force must decide whether its a budget air force or a great economic power Air Force
 
Last edited:
Those wacky Russians. 3,436,425,000 Rubles ($54,000,000 USD) is a lot of money to spend on something that would end up on the ground in a million pieces, should we engage them.

Military 101. Never sell your opponent short. The SU-57 is just slightly better than the F-15. It's not as good as the F-22 and who knows against the F-35 (may we never find out). It will eat a F-18 and F-16s lunch. If the Russians can get the numbers up to a decent level of them, they become a very serious threat. If they can field 500 or more, they become a severe problem since we can only field 187 F-22s. Okay, half of theirs will be grounded but so will half of our F-22s. That still means that they will have enough to make a difference in the air. They need to stop pushing the SU-35 so hard and spend their money and time on the SU-57 which is a much more deadly weapon system. Forgetting that just gets Western Pilots dead.

The Indian Air Force has already decided that the SU-57 has maintenance and serviceability problems, and claims that it's inferior to the F-22 and F-35..

Indian Air Force finds Su-57 is inferior to F-22 and F-35. - Fighter Jets Pics Videos and Complete Information Portal
FGFA vs F-35 The Indian Air Force must decide whether its a budget air force or a great economic power Air Force

Things are misleading. India may not be able to afford the F-35 for many reasons. For instance, their infrastructure may take years to grow into the F-35s capability. But their infrastructure can handle the SU-57 right now. Plus, they are going to be flying against the best China has which is the F-20 and both the SU-57 and the F-35 can handle the F-20. Or they might be flying against the Paks with their F-16s and the SU-57 would be the more logical choice on that one. Sometimes good enough is good enough and it sounds like the SU-57 might be just good enough.

Monobreath is chuckling to himself right now hearing me stick up for a Russian Fighter. It's good to cheer him up once in awhile.
 
Sources tell me that the actual production of the SU-57 won't be until at least 2027 due to the engine not being ready for mass production until then. Russia is in very short supply of Rubles these days and has to make decisions on what it can and can't build. It's more than a little painful over there right now for procurement. And you thought we had it rough.
 
Sources tell me that the actual production of the SU-57 won't be until at least 2027 due to the engine not being ready for mass production until then. Russia is in very short supply of Rubles these days and has to make decisions on what it can and can't build. It's more than a little painful over there right now for procurement. And you thought we had it rough.

Russia is in very short supply of Rubles these days

That's where you're wrong.

They've got tons of rubles. The bad news is, no one will take them.
 
Would make for a nice ashtray...its tail design [engines included] looks like nothing more than a copy of the old Grumman F-14, the rest looks like the the body was built to cover up the planes shortcomings in an attempt to make it photograph-able ...look at those port and starboard wheels bro, they look like they're off a hand truck...the things a murky mess.

Cleaning up the F-14 isn't a real bad idea. The F-14s loss from the Navy is still felt today and they have nothing to fill that void. Even the F-35C won't completely fill it. The projected upgrades to the F-14D model would have made it into a barn burner. Pretty much superior to anything in the skies for the day up until the 2000s. It was a real monster.
 
Cleaning up the F-14 isn't a real bad idea. The F-14s loss from the Navy is still felt today and they have nothing to fill that void. Even the F-35C won't completely fill it. The projected upgrades to the F-14D model would have made it into a barn burner. Pretty much superior to anything in the skies for the day up until the 2000s. It was a real monster.
Agree on all fronts
 
Energy prices are creeping up so Russia will have more money.

Yes,they are now 2 decades behind. By then, they will be 3 decades behind. You can't play catchup like that on a budget. They are going to have to at least match the US dollar for dollar in spending to catch up. They are probably going to have to outspend the US to catch up and it's going to take them at least 2 decades starting in 2030 just to catch up. That means, they are screwed for the next 30 years or so even if the economy picks up.
 
If they can get this into more Air Shows, the rest of the world just might notice it and start buying it instead of the F-35 which would run the cost of the F-35 up instead of down.
How? F-35 cost estimates are based on manufacturing pace and existing orders by partner countries, not by all the potential new orders that we keep hearing about.

Conversely I think the latest estimate for SU-57 is 12, and regardless of how one spins India dropping out that sent a serious negative message to potential SU-57 buyers.
 
If they can get this into more Air Shows, the rest of the world just might notice it and start buying it instead of the F-35 which would run the cost of the F-35 up instead of down.
How? F-35 cost estimates are based on manufacturing pace and existing orders by partner countries, not by all the potential new orders that we keep hearing about.

Conversely I think the latest estimate for SU-57 is 12, and regardless of how one spins India dropping out that sent a serious negative message to potential SU-57 buyers.

And so is the cost and availability of the SU-57 along with the development. What's right for one is also right for the other.

Yes, 12. And when there were only that number of F-35s, the sales were coming in, the money was being collected, the mods were being made, the improvements were being made and the assembly was started. I think the Russians are just a little premature in marketing the SU-57 until they get the Engine ironed out. Then look out, it's one hell of an alternative. I look for 2027 for that to happen.
 
Cleaning up the F-14 isn't a real bad idea.
Sure it is. Nobody has designed swing-wing planes since the 70s for a reason.

What reason? Metallurgy? They whipped that problem. It's still a great idea where you get the best of two worlds. But it is more costly.

I remember talking with our F-15 pilots that flew against the Navy F-14s. Their opinion was that the F-14 was more than a handful. It had more range in radar, it's weapons system had longer range. And it took the combination of an F-15 to play the radar games with it and the F-16 flying NAP to get near it. The F-16 had a problem When the F-14 first swung the wings forward, it could turn inside even a F-16 so they had to make the F-14 make that first turn and live through it. Meanwhile, the F-15 had to survive playing radar missile games with a superior radar missile platform. Neither the F-15 nor the F-16 could hope to take on a F-14 consistently unless they limited the F-14s systems to even up the playing field which they often times did. It's like making the F-35 turn on it's IFF during war games just so it can be seen.

The F-15E finally grew into the F-14D shoes but the F-18 never did.
 

Forum List

Back
Top