No 'Deals' With Israel, Unless We Get Everything We Want

[Indeependent]

Brush up on WWII Israel dwelling Arabs who sided with Hitler and how the major European powers split up the entire Mid-East.
Also brush up on the discovery of oil and how the Arabs kicked out the British whose technology accessed that oil.
Also keep in mind (I don't mean to be patronizing here) that there was no internet or cell phones and different ambassadors promised different things to different people and groups.

No, I mean be more specific about what I said, that you thought was historically inaccurate and out of context.

Are you serious?
Everything you post is coming from a void; "Oh, those evil Jews!".
Sorry, but I have seen your intellectual honesty on non-Middle Eastern threads, but it's clearly lacking here.
It doesn't take more than a few hours of reading to become at least somewhat familiar with focused historical events.
No excuses.

 

[Kondor3]

Not if they want to live long and prosper...

You watch too much Star Trek.

I do, indeed...

And I intentionally used that catch-phrase...

Because, in this case, long life and prosperity are exactly what is at-issue here for the Palestinians...

Modern-day Rump Palestine is not where either of those may be readily attained, and they're not getting their old lands back, peacefully or by force of arms, so...

There is one other option... pack up and leave... and go begin a new life someplace else.

 

[Billo_Really]

No strawman involved.

Of coarse it's a strawman.

What you're claiming is not true.

One need look no further than the declared intentions of Hezbollah (and their Iranian backers) and Hamas, and the original Palestinian Charter, to recognize that as truth.

Hezbollah and Iran have nothing to do with this.

And Hamas leaders have made recent statements that parts of their original Charter is outdated, no longer relevant or being pursued.

We can bore ourselves silly with recitals of Declarations and subsequent Renunciations as has been done on these boards a thousand times, and all to no end.

Are you saying you are aware of the statements referenced above?

Both Hezbollah (and Iran) and Hamas still want to slit the collective Israeli Throat while the Fatah crowd on the West Bank will jump on-board with that idea as soon as it's safe to do so.

That's another strawman. Hezbollah and Iran have nothing to do with this and anyone who definitely feels like slitting "the collective Israeli Throat" (whatever the **** that means), is a direct result of Israel's treatment of the Palestinian's.

BTW, Israel used to think the same thing about Fatah, as they do now about Hamas. The only difference is, Hamas won't sell out the Palestinian's and refuses to be Israel's little dog *****. Why people should kow-tow to Israel, is beyond me?

Outside the framework of Palestinian sympathizers and naive Sheeple, very few sane and rational people believe a word that Hezbollah and Hamas say, and only a slightly larger number believe the marginalized windbags of Fatah.

Rational people, don't make irrational statements.

Inferring that part of the Lebonese government has anything to do with this situation, is irrational.

The Palestinians cannot be trusted.

The Israelis know this.

Zionists have been going back on their word, ever since they migrated into the area.

They told the UN back in '48, they'd respect the rights of the indigenous arabs........they didn't.
They joined the United Nations indicating they'd honor it's Charter............they don't.
They made agreements at the Oslo Accords............they didn't keep.
They agreed to several ceasefires with Hamas.............which they never kept.​

Historically, Israel has gone back on its word, so they're no one to talk about trusting someone else.

Well, those who aren't fifth-columnists or appeasers or dysfunctional types or congenital idiots or cowards, and who don't have their heads up their asses, anyway.

Are you sure you haven't left anyone out?

A matter of subjective personal opinion?

Yep.

Well-founded subjective personal opinion?

You betcher ass.

Well-founded?

You're trying to include governments of other nations into this discussion, what is "well-founded" about that?

 

[Billo_Really]

Are you serious?
Everything you post is coming from a void; "Oh, those evil Jews!".
Sorry, but I have seen your intellectual honesty on non-Middle Eastern threads, but it's clearly lacking here.
It doesn't take more than a few hours of reading to become at least somewhat familiar with focused historical events.
No excuses.

Nothing I posted has anything to do with jews.

You're making blanket statements and baseless accusations you can't back up.

Otherwise, you'd be able to tell me WTF you're talking about!

 

[Billo_Really]

Billo_Really,

What position are you claiming?

In the final analysis, the Palestinians don't want a restoration of the 1967 lines.

Nice strawman.

(QUESTION)

I'm confused. What is the misrepresentation of your position?

Most Respectfully,
R

Huh?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

 

[RoccoR]

Billo_Really, et al,

The sequence here, is that you suggested a straw man defense was made.

Billo_Really,

What position are you claiming?

Nice strawman.

(QUESTION)

I'm confused. What is the misrepresentation of your position?

Huh?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

(COMMENT)

"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position."

So I am asking: What was misrepresented?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Billo_Really]

1. What punishment? Gaza gets all it needs through the legitimate crossings.

Not according to the WHO, ICRC and AI.

2. No collective punishment is going on.

**** you! They can't even fish and farm, without you fuckers shooting at them.

3. Tell me.

I've told you what this means more than once.

"Effective control" means if you have control over an area, it is still considered occupied, even if there is no military presence in the area.

The laws of occupation apply if a state has "effective control" over the territory in question. The High Court has held contrary to Israel 's claim, stating that the creation and continuation of an occupation does not depend on the existence of an institution administering the lives of the local population, but only on the extent of its military control in the area. Furthermore, a certain area may be deemed occupied even if the army does not have a fixed presence throughout the whole area.

BTW, the "High Court" referenced above, happens to be the Israeli High Court.

So even the Israeli High Court say's you're full of shit!

4. Gaza misspends its aid - paying its corrupt officials and not repairing its infrastructure to obviously make it look as if it is suffering. The government also delight in telling journalists how much it is suffering and won't let journalists go unchaperoned to see the affluent areas etc.

At least they let journalists in. Israel won't let any international journalists into the area.

5. What humanitarian crisis. The Red Cross and also Hamas have admitted there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

This is the problem when you don't read my posts and make your knee-jerk replies just 2 minutes later.

I posted what the "Red Cross" said, back in post #37. Who do you think the ICRC is?

Alright, one more time...

...pencils down and eyes to the front of the class!

Gaza: 1.5 million people trapped in despair

Six months after Israel launched its three-week military operation in Gaza on 27 December 2008, Gazans still cannot rebuild their lives. Most people struggle to make ends meet. Seriously ill patients face difficulty obtaining the treatment they need. Many children suffer from deep psychological problems. Civilians whose homes and belongings were destroyed during the conflict are unable to recover.

I'm going to start charging you, for the constant "schooling" I have to give you, on this subject.

6. AI is a joke. Antisemitic and corrupt. It is there on the Amnesty International Wiki site.

Is that what proves "anti-Semitism"? Being on the "Wiki" site?

7. Um, because Israel blockades Gaza?

See "effective control" above.

8. I don't know what you mean.

You never heard the story of the "Emperor's new clothes"?

The emperor walked beneath the beautiful canopy in the procession, and all the people in the street and in their windows said, "Goodness, the emperor's new clothes are incomparable! What a beautiful train on his jacket. What a perfect fit!" No one wanted it to be noticed that he could see nothing, for then it would be said that he was unfit for his position or that he was stupid. None of the emperor's clothes had ever before received such praise.

"But he doesn't have anything on!" said a small child.

"Good Lord, let us hear the voice of an innocent child!" said the father, and whispered to another what the child had said.

"A small child said that he doesn't have anything on!"

Finally everyone was saying, "He doesn't have anything on!"

The emperor shuddered, for he knew that they were right, but he thought, "The procession must go on!" He carried himself even more proudly, and the chamberlains walked along behind carrying the train that wasn't there.

Ergo, you and all these Israeli kiss-asses, keep stating all the virtues of the Israeli government, just like the townspeople admiring the "emperor's new clothes", when in reality, everyone can see this is bullshit!

9. No, support for Israel is strong and in the US stronger than support for the Palestinians.

And that is changing.

The Nazis went a whole decade before the world took action against them, but it finally did. And eventually, this will be Israel's fate to.

 

[Billo_Really]

"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position."

So I am asking: What was misrepresented?

That the Palestinian's won't accept a two-state solution with the '67 borders.

 

[Kondor3]

"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position."

So I am asking: What was misrepresented?

That the Palestinian's won't accept a two-state solution with the '67 borders.

Someone else can school you on the connection between Hezbollah and the Palestinian militancy; I haven't got the time right now.

As to the Truth or Falsity of the observation that the Palestinians will not accept a return to the 1967 borders as a permanent solution...

My original post (No. 54 in this thread) was an Op-Ed piece... an expression of personal opinion that no matter what the Palestinians say about such acceptance being what they will settle for on a permanent basis, that they are lying through their teeth when they say that.

As such, it is, by default, un-provable, and a matter of purely personal opinion.

Based upon previous broad and factional Renunciations and Counter-Renunciations; much like a yo-yo.

Personal opinion.

Clearly labeled as such.

No burden of proof is required.

 

[Indeependent]

Are you serious?
Everything you post is coming from a void; "Oh, those evil Jews!".
Sorry, but I have seen your intellectual honesty on non-Middle Eastern threads, but it's clearly lacking here.
It doesn't take more than a few hours of reading to become at least somewhat familiar with focused historical events.
No excuses.

Nothing I posted has anything to do with jews.

You're making blanket statements and baseless accusations you can't back up.

Otherwise, you'd be able to tell me WTF you're talking about!

WTF doesn't phase me, it bores me.
You keep referring to how Israel violates this and violates that as though from day 1 of the US vote the Arabs nations have refrained from actually physically attacking the new nation.

Now study some actual objective history from a non-Pro Arab web-site and report back.
Discussion

 

[Billo_Really]

WTF doesn't phase me, it bores me.

Like I give a shit!

You keep referring to how Israel violates this and violates that...

When they're in violation of over 100 UN resolutions, what else am I supposed to say?

... as though from day 1 of the US vote the Arabs nations have refrained from actually physically attacking the new nation.

You mean UN vote? Not US. And it wasn't a vote. It was the day the Mandate would officially end, which is a moot point, because Zionists declared independence the day before, in violation of a UN request that they refrain from making any political decisions until the UN commission had a chance to discuss the Palestinian situation.

And the arab nations went in to preserve the land rights of the indigenous arab population that was being driven from their homes by jewish terrorist groups.

Now study some actual objective history from a non-Pro Arab web-site and report back.
Discussion

Your personal opinion of a particular website don't mean jack shit!

 

[Billo_Really]

Someone else can school you on the connection between Hezbollah and the Palestinian militancy; I haven't got the time right now.

Saying Hezbollah has anything to do with the situation in the OPT, is like saying Japan has something to do with the US's border problem with Mexico.

As to the Truth or Falsity of the observation that the Palestinians will not accept a return to the 1967 borders as a permanent solution...

My original post (No. 54 in this thread) was an Op-Ed piece... an expression of personal opinion that no matter what the Palestinians say about such acceptance being what they will settle for on a permanent basis, that they are lying through their teeth when they say that.

As such, it is, by default, un-provable, and a matter of purely personal opinion.

Based upon previous broad and factional Renunciations and Counter-Renunciations; much like a yo-yo.

Personal opinion.

Clearly labeled as such.

No burden of proof is required.

Then I apologize for bringing ants to your picnic.

I don't argue against peoples beliefs. You're free to believe whatever you want.

 

[aris2chat]

That is not negotiation, that is blackmail and would mean the death of Israelis.

PA is negotiating, hamas is blackmailing and sabotaging the peace process, which hurts everyone.

 

[Indeependent]

WTF doesn't phase me, it bores me.

Like I give a shit!

You keep referring to how Israel violates this and violates that...

When they're in violation of over 100 UN resolutions, what else am I supposed to say?

... as though from day 1 of the US vote the Arabs nations have refrained from actually physically attacking the new nation.

You mean UN vote? Not US. And it wasn't a vote. It was the day the Mandate would officially end, which is a moot point, because Zionists declared independence the day before, in violation of a UN request that they refrain from making any political decisions until the UN commission had a chance to discuss the Palestinian situation.

And the arab nations went in to preserve the land rights of the indigenous arab population that was being driven from their homes by jewish terrorist groups.

Now study some actual objective history from a non-Pro Arab web-site and report back.
Discussion

Your personal opinion of a particular website don't mean jack shit!

The fact that these Resolutions are introduced on a daily basis by the Arab Nations of course means nothing you.
The UN...what a joke!

Go ahead and hate Israel as it will still be here when you are long gone.

 

[Billo_Really]

The fact that these Resolutions are introduced on a daily basis by the Arab Nations of course means nothing you.

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you?

In one month, the UN will issue over 100 resolutions (on average). Only 5 will be on Israel. And that 5 will be because Israel has violated IHL.

If you don't want resolutions against you, stop breaking the law.

The UN...what a joke!

You got a problem with an organization whose main mission is to get nations to solve their disputes peacefully?

You think we should go back to the "might makes right" bullshit?

Go ahead and hate Israel as it will still be here when you are long gone.

I don't have a problem with Israel existing; I do have a problem with Israel treating the Palestinian's, like the Nazis treated the jews.

And I only hate the Israeli right, I fully support the Israeli left.

 

[Billo_Really]

That is not negotiation, that is blackmail and would mean the death of Israelis.

PA is negotiating, hamas is blackmailing and sabotaging the peace process, which hurts everyone.

The PA is selling out Palestinian's. It is a corrupt organization that is nothing more than a puppet government representing Israeli interests for personal gain.

Hamas has stated they'll accept a two-state solution on the '67 borders and the right of return for Palestinian refugees. That's not sabotage. That is the position of every country on the planet.

Or you can look at it this way, if Israel really wanted peace, how come they're the ones always breaking the ceasefires?

 

[Kondor3]

"...if Israel really wanted peace..."

Oh, but they do... on Israeli terms... and they've got the muscle to make it go their way.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Hamas has stated they'll accept..."

That's mighty-white-o-them, considering that Hamas is sitting at the poker table with one card left to draw in a 5-card game, and that they've got a 2, 6 and 9 showing...

Hamas needs to keep their big mouths shut and take whatever they can get at this late stage, before they bring total disaster down upon the heads of the Palestinians.

The losers in a struggle for land do not dictate terms.

If they don't like it, the Israelis can always provide a Convincing Lesson far more terrible than and far more devastating to Hamas than anything served-up to date.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Noura Erekat is implying that in 1948, the establishment of the State of Israel was actually the Jewish Occupation of the land bounded by the Part II - UN General Resolution 181(II), as implemented through the UN Palestine Commission, as outlined in the Part I - Section B - the Steps Preparatory to Independence.

You keep bringing up resolution 181 like it means something.

When the foreigners declared the state of Israel inside Palestine they referenced resolution 181.

However:

They had already violated the proposed borders.
They had already violated Jerusalem.
They had already violated the rights of the non Jewish population.

What part of resolution 181 were they referring to?

 

[Billo_Really]

That's mighty-white-o-them, considering that Hamas is sitting at the poker table with one card left to draw in a 5-card game, and that they've got a 2, 6 and 9 showing...

Hamas needs to keep their big mouths shut and take whatever they can get at this late stage, before they bring total disaster down upon the heads of the Palestinians.

The losers in a struggle for land do not dictate terms.

If they don't like it, the Israelis can always provide a Convincing Lesson far more terrible than and far more devastating to Hamas than anything served-up to date.

You're really into this "might makes right" BS!

That shit never lasts. In fact, the ones walking around thinking they can impose their will on others, usually whined up being someone's little *****!