No 'Deals' With Israel, Unless We Get Everything We Want

[Sweet_Caroline]

You love going round in circles. I have repeated my answers to your childish questions and your lack of comprehension about the situation again and again. If you don't like it you can lump it. Do you like pftinmore have nothing better to do than repeat the same idiotic questions and lies all the time. Is there nothing on tv this afternoon for you? You need to get a life.

 

[Kondor3]

P F Tinmore, Kondor3, et al,

This may be true. But then, you cannot say that the State of Israel did not try to negotiate a peaceful settlement.

I don't think anyone in the world is expecting any progress in these fake peace talks.

(COMMENT)

But then, given the solemn declaration policy of "ethnic cleansing," and a strategy of Jihad and armed struggle by the Fedayeen, under Article 6, GCIV, the Palestinian holds the key to the closure of military operations. With no negotiated settlement, failed peace talks, the Palestinians are the force behind a continuation of the Occupation.

Most Respectfully,
R

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw89UDZay4M]Erakat caught on tape - YouTube[/ame]

A silly-ass YouTube video of some woman babbling into a megaphone about 'the occupation' doesn't seem to relate very well to what was being discussed...

Unless, of course, the content was intended merely as a vague and largely-disconnected excuse and segue for a rah-rah-cheerleading interlude for the Palestinians...

 

[RoccoR]

et al,

It's a very short video.

P F Tinmore, Kondor3, et al,

This may be true. But then, you cannot say that the State of Israel did not try to negotiate a peaceful settlement.

(COMMENT)

But then, given the solemn declaration policy of "ethnic cleansing," and a strategy of Jihad and armed struggle by the Fedayeen, under Article 6, GCIV, the Palestinian holds the key to the closure of military operations. With no negotiated settlement, failed peace talks, the Palestinians are the force behind a continuation of the Occupation.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw89UDZay4M]Erakat caught on tape - YouTube[/ame]

A silly-ass YouTube video of some woman babbling into a megaphone about 'the occupation' doesn't seem to relate very well to what was being discussed...

Unless, of course, the content was intended merely as a vague and largely-disconnected excuse and segue for a rah-rah-cheerleading interlude for the Palestinians...

(COMMENT)

She is talking about the "occupation since 1948." Well that is the BS from the PNA Charter and HAMAS Covenant.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Billo_Really]

You love going round in circles.

And just like a typical, irresponsible Zionist, you love blaming others for the things you do.

I have repeated my answers...

That's all you do. You're certainly don't have the chops to debate an issue.

...to your childish questions and your lack of comprehension about the situation again and again.

I explain the reasons behind my claims, whereas you simply repeat the same dumbass mantra's over and over, but I'm the one who lacks comprehension of the issues?

That's "out there!"

Here's a short list of questions, you have not answered:

How is the blockade "not" collective punishment?
Do you know "collective punishment" is a war crime?
Do you understand what "effective control" means?
Do you know what the WHO said about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza?
Do you know what the ICRC said about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza?
Do you know what AI said about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza?
Do you know why the OPT is referred to as the "occupied territories"?
Do you know your argument is nothing more than saying, "the emperor has new clothes"?
Do you know the whole world is getting sick of your bullshit and your country will eventually suffer the same fate as Nazi Germany?​

Nobody likes an arrogant prick, going around bullying others.

If you don't like it you can lump it.

And you called me "childish"?

Do you like pftinmore have nothing better to do than repeat the same idiotic questions...

Well, if you're gonna repeat the same dumbass answers...

...and lies all the time.

How could you possibly know something is a lie you haven't even seen?

Is there nothing on tv this afternoon for you?

Nothing is more entertaining than watching you jump through hoops, to avoid all the corners you get backed into.

You need to get a life.

You need to respect a life.

 

[P F Tinmore]

et al,

It's a very short video.

Erakat caught on tape - YouTube

A silly-ass YouTube video of some woman babbling into a megaphone about 'the occupation' doesn't seem to relate very well to what was being discussed...

Unless, of course, the content was intended merely as a vague and largely-disconnected excuse and segue for a rah-rah-cheerleading interlude for the Palestinians...

(COMMENT)

She is talking about the "occupation since 1948." Well that is the BS from the PNA Charter and HAMAS Covenant.

Most Respectfully,
R

She is a professor of international law.

In my studies of the conflict I came to the same conclusion before I saw this video.

 

[Indeependent]

Billo_Really,
If you were anywhere near historically correct and in context you might get some respect, but like a very few other posters here, you pick your tiny focused target and inundate us with out of context information.

You need to study history starting with WWII, otherwise, you're posting are foolish like an MSNBC or FoxNews host spitting out a sound-bite.

 

[Billo_Really]

Billo_Really,
If you were anywhere near historically correct and in context you might get some respect, but like a very few other posters here, you pick your tiny focused target and inundate us with out of context information.

You need to study history starting with WWII, otherwise, you're posting are foolish like an MSNBC or FoxNews host spitting out a sound-bite.

Can you be more specific?

 

[Kondor3]

et al,

It's a very short video.

A silly-ass YouTube video of some woman babbling into a megaphone about 'the occupation' doesn't seem to relate very well to what was being discussed...

Unless, of course, the content was intended merely as a vague and largely-disconnected excuse and segue for a rah-rah-cheerleading interlude for the Palestinians...

(COMMENT)

She is talking about the "occupation since 1948." Well that is the BS from the PNA Charter and HAMAS Covenant.

Most Respectfully,
R

She is a professor of international law.

In my studies of the conflict I came to the same conclusion before I saw this video.

OK, so it's a silly-ass Youtube video of some woman who happens to be a professor of international law braying into a megaphone like a donkey about the occupation...

That and $2.50 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks...

 

[P F Tinmore]

et al,

It's a very short video.


(COMMENT)

She is talking about the "occupation since 1948." Well that is the BS from the PNA Charter and HAMAS Covenant.

Most Respectfully,
R

She is a professor of international law.

In my studies of the conflict I came to the same conclusion before I saw this video.

OK, so it's a silly-ass Youtube video of some woman who happens to be a professor of international law braying into a megaphone like a donkey about the occupation...

That and $2.50 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks...

And true too. You forgot to mention that.

 

[Indeependent]

Billo_Really,
If you were anywhere near historically correct and in context you might get some respect, but like a very few other posters here, you pick your tiny focused target and inundate us with out of context information.

You need to study history starting with WWII, otherwise, you're posting are foolish like an MSNBC or FoxNews host spitting out a sound-bite.

Can you be more specific?

Brush up on WWII Israel dwelling Arabs who sided with Hitler and how the major European powers split up the entire Mid-East.
Also brush up on the discovery of oil and how the Arabs kicked out the British whose technology accessed that oil.
Also keep in mind (I don't mean to be patronizing here) that there was no internet or cell phones and different ambassadors promised different things to different people and groups.

 

[Billo_Really]

Brush up on WWII Israel dwelling Arabs who sided with Hitler and how the major European powers split up the entire Mid-East.
Also brush up on the discovery of oil and how the Arabs kicked out the British whose technology accessed that oil.
Also keep in mind (I don't mean to be patronizing here) that there was no internet or cell phones and different ambassadors promised different things to different people and groups.

No, I mean be more specific about what I said, that you thought was historically inaccurate and out of context.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

And herein rests the danger on the issue, and the roadblock to peace. Yes, Noura Erakat is a human rights attorney and pro-Palestinian activist. But she is also evidence of the political chaos on the issue.

She is a professor of international law.

In my studies of the conflict I came to the same conclusion before I saw this video.

OK, so it's a silly-ass Youtube video of some woman who happens to be a professor of international law braying into a megaphone like a donkey about the occupation...

That and $2.50 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks...

And true too. You forgot to mention that.

(COMMENT)

When we speak of the "Occupation," there are is the flip-side to the coin; the establishment view.

• Noura Erekat is implying that in 1948, the establishment of the State of Israel was actually the Jewish Occupation of the land bounded by the Part II - UN General Resolution 181(II), as implemented through the UN Palestine Commission, as outlined in the Part I - Section B - the Steps Preparatory to Independence. In effect, she is not talking about the 1967 Occupation of the West Bank (previously controlled by Jordan) and Gaza Strip (previously controlled by Egypt); but speaking of the entire expanse of the former territory under Mandate (less Jordan). In her legal eyes and myopic view, the 1948 State of Israel established in the Partition Plan is an "Occupation" in it self, taken by force. (MAP #1: Annex A to resolution 181 (II) of the General Assembly, dated 29 November 1947)

• This differs somewhat of the alternative discussion of the Israeli "Occupied Territories" (OpT) following the Six-Day War in 1967 under United Nations Security Council Resolution 242. (MAP #2: UN Map 3243 Revison #4, Insert to UNSCR 242) The OpT of the 1967 were the result of a Israel-Egyptian confrontation and a Israeli-Jordanian confrontation. In the two decades of occupation, neither Jordan nor Egypt had given the Palestinian any measure of independence or sovereignty; nor would either tolerate such a move. In fact, Jordan annexed the West Bank (24 April 1950). While the Arab League generally considered the Jordanian annexation of the West Bank a temporary measures (illegal as a permanent arrangement), the Allied Powers (including the US and UK) recognized this extension of Jordanian sovereignty over the West Bank.

In the case of the argument furthered by Noura Ekarat, esq., the Palestinian position is that the entire State of --- and the recognition of --- Israel is illegal since its inception in 1948. And so her stance is that ALL of the former mandate territory (less Jordan) is Palestinian Territory occupied by Israel. So, one can say that Noura Ekarat follows the basic tenants of the Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), and the explicit premises of the Palestine National Charter of 1968.

The Palestinian movement is confusing --- in that it is --- multifaceted. When discussing the "Occupation" and the legitimacy of the claims on either side, one must first define the political position behind the other. In the case of the Palestinians, one must determine if they are Jihadist and Fedayeen (HAMAS or Fatah, respectively) which are grounded in the past; or, a present day rationalist (non-violent, seeking reparations, restitution and claim settlement).

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Kondor3]

In the final analysis, the Palestinians don't want a restoration of the 1967 lines.

In the final analysis, the Palestinians want a restoration of the conditions pre-May-1948.

To wit, prior to the Declaration of Israeli Statehood and Independence.

Realizing this...

In today's world, 65 years after 1948, after the 1948 and 1967 and 1973 wars and Intifada I and II...

Realizing that no matter how many times Branch A or B or C of the Palestinian Militancy acknowledges Israel's right to exist, they will always go back on their word eventually...

Realizing that no matter how much land the Israelis concede, it will never be enough, and there will always be a fresh demand for more, using other rationalizations, eventually...

Realizing that no matter how much dual-control of important sites and regions that the Israelis concede, it will never be enough, and there will be new demands for changes, eventually...

Realizing that in the long run the Palestinians will settle for nothing less than the complete dismantling of the State of Israel and a return of the entire land-mass to Muslim-Arab control...

Realizing that in the long run the Israelis are engaged in a black-and-white life-and-death struggle for the existence of the Jewish people as a polity on the world stage...

Realizing that in the long run, no amount of appeasement and concessions and temporary band-aids on the situation are going to help them to save their new country...

Realizing that the only way to survive is to harden their hearts and to remain firm in their resolve and to complete their recapture and control and settling of everything between river and sea...

The Israelis see a return to the 1967 lines as Phase 1 of 2, in achieving the Palestinian's ultimate goal of the complete erasure or eradication of the State of Israel...

And they realize that all of the braying donkeys outside of Israel who insist upon a return to 1967 borders either don't know what that ultimately means or don't care or are hoping to aid the Palestinians in the attainment of Phase 1 of 2...

Now...

Wearing the Israelis' shoes for a moment...

Realizing that former land-for-peace deals in the region, and with those players, do not usually have a happy ending for Israel...

Realizing your Adversary's ultimate goal is to erase your existence...

Realizing that conceding the 1967 boundaries puts your Adversary halfway to his goal of completely eliminating you...

Realizing that the braying jackasses on the outside who insist upon 1967 do not understand Israel's long-term survival requirements and must therefore be ignored...

Realizing that you have overwhelming military firepower to enforce your own will and preserve your people...

Realizing that you can hold the land against all comers for generations to come, if not longer, in order to buy more time, and to permanently entrench yourselves, so that no one can ever take the Holy Land away from your people, ever again, and so that no one can ever again slaughter your women and children in the millions...

Whatever in the world is the incentive, for conceding a pull-back to the 1967 borders?

Why in the world would the Israelis wish to commit Slow Suicide like that?

Doesn't make any sense.

And it seems a good bet that it's not going to happen.

In my own tiny little mind, the only question is, will the Israelis strike, to eject to the Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza and push those populations into Jordan and Lebanon during the next couple of decades, while their Arab neighbors are too weak to even attempt to stop them, in order to get this the hell over with?

Taking a page from the playbook of the Czechs (ejecting the Sudetenland Germans) or the Poles (ejecting the East Prussian Germans) or the Muslims (ejecting the Jews from multiple countries) post-WWII, within living memory, and after the UN Charter had been signed...

 

[Kondor3]

Now, all they need is a country in which to enjoy those rights.

I suggest Jordan, 'cause they're not wanted where they are now, and they ultimately will not be allowed to stay there. Might was well avoid the Ramadan Rush and go now.

They're right where they should be.

Not if they want to live long and prosper...

 

[Billo_Really]

Not if they want to live long and prosper...

You watch too much Star Trek.

 

[Billo_Really]

In the final analysis, the Palestinians don't want a restoration of the 1967 lines.

Nice strawman.

 

[RoccoR]

Billo_Really,

What position are you claiming?

In the final analysis, the Palestinians don't want a restoration of the 1967 lines.

Nice strawman.

(QUESTION)

I'm confused. What is the misrepresentation of your position?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

1 How is the blockade "not" collective punishment?
2 Do you know "collective punishment" is a war crime?
3 Do you understand what "effective control" means?
4 Do you know what the WHO said about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza?
5 Do you know what the ICRC said about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza?
6 Do you know what AI said about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza?
7 Do you know why the OPT is referred to as the "occupied territories"?
8 Do you know your argument is nothing more than saying, "the emperor has new clothes"?
9 Do you know the whole world is getting sick of your bullshit and your country will eventually suffer the same fate as Nazi Germany?

1. What punishment? Gaza gets all it needs through the legitimate crossings.
2. No collective punishment is going on.
3. Tell me.
4. Gaza misspends its aid - paying its corrupt officials and not repairing its infrastructure to obviously make it look as if it is suffering. The government also delight in telling journalists how much it is suffering and won't let journalists go unchaperoned to see the affluent areas etc.
5. What humanitarian crisis. The Red Cross and also Hamas have admitted there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
6. AI is a joke. Antisemitic and corrupt. It is there on the Amnesty International Wiki site.
7. Um, because Israel blockades Gaza?
8. I don't know what you mean.
9. No, support for Israel is strong and in the US stronger than support for the Palestinians.

 

[Kondor3]

In the final analysis, the Palestinians don't want a restoration of the 1967 lines.

Nice strawman.

No strawman involved.

One need look no further than the declared intentions of Hezbollah (and their Iranian backers) and Hamas, and the original Palestinian Charter, to recognize that as truth.

We can bore ourselves silly with recitals of Declarations and subsequent Renunciations as has been done on these boards a thousand times, and all to no end.

Both Hezbollah (and Iran) and Hamas still want to slit the collective Israeli Throat while the Fatah crowd on the West Bank will jump on-board with that idea as soon as it's safe to do so.

Outside the framework of Palestinian sympathizers and naive Sheeple, very few sane and rational people believe a word that Hezbollah and Hamas say, and only a slightly larger number believe the marginalized windbags of Fatah.

The Palestinians cannot be trusted.

The Israelis know this.

Well, those who aren't fifth-columnists or appeasers or dysfunctional types or congenital idiots or cowards, and who don't have their heads up their asses, anyway.

A matter of subjective personal opinion?

Yep.

Well-founded subjective personal opinion?

You betcher ass.

 

[Kondor3]

Billo_Really,

What position are you claiming?

In the final analysis, the Palestinians don't want a restoration of the 1967 lines.

Nice strawman.

(QUESTION)

I'm confused. What is the misrepresentation of your position?

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco...

I wasn't representing (or misrepresenting) Billy-Boy's opinion...

I was representing the underlying and well-documented Palestinian position...

I honestly think that Billy-Boy just wants the Israelis to move back to the 1967 lines and compensate and allow-return and all of that, leaving the inner husk of Israel intact.

I honestly think that Billy-Boy believes that's possible.

But I do not believe that that is the intention of the Palestinians themselves.

Consequently, I was remarking upon their position, not Billy-Boy's.

Different critter.

Or so I perceive it.