tipofthespear
Senior Member
- May 13, 2013
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Monkey please!!What's your evidence that He isn't?
And, given that you understand the Christian Faith, please provide an interpretation of Acts 2:38.
Nice people can choose to reject god and go to hell
- Thread starter GISMYS
- Start date
What's your evidence that He isn't?
And, given that you understand the Christian Faith, please provide an interpretation of Acts 2:38.
I do not reject God, only your kind of God. I rejected such a God of wrath when I was sixteen, and that was half a century ago.
In the last fifty years I have searched for the true God through many cults and religions.
I believe there is a great and merciful God who saves everyone in a long cycle of evolution through many lifetimes. Buddha was right and we reincarnate thousands of times on many different planets paying karma, until we reach a state of grace, or enlightmenment. Only then do we continue on as immortal beings that need no further incarnations. The spirit world teaches, there is no heaven or hell except within us, and we will all finally overcome our imperfections.
In my philosophy all will eventually be saved, and no one will ever be lost or wasted.
You actually said something I agree with at last. Spiritualism teaches there is no supreme Devil and no eternal hellfire.
edthecynic
Censored for Cynicism
- Oct 20, 2008
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Acts 2: 36* Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
What's your evidence that He isn't?
And, given that you understand the Christian Faith, please provide an interpretation of Acts 2:38.
37* Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38* Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39* For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40* And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
What's your evidence that He isn't?
http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/266556-word.html
And, given that you understand the Christian Faith, please provide an interpretation of Acts 2:38.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/266556-word.html
numan
What! Me Worry?
- Mar 23, 2013
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I see that you hold fast to the glorious vision of Hell enunciated by Tertullian, the earliest of the holy Church Fathers to describe the pleasure and exultation of the saints and angels in Heaven as they look down on the sinners writhing and shrieking in Hell forever and ever....
Yes, and there are still to come other spectacles - that last, that eternal Day of Judgement, that Day which the Gentiles never believed would come, that Day they laughed at, when this old world and all its generations shall be consumed in one fire. How vast the spectacle that day, and how wide ! What sight shall wake my wonder, what my laughter, my joy and exultation ? As I see all those kings, those great kings, whom we were told had been welcomed into heaven at their deaths, along with those who told of their ascent, thrust down together with the very demon Jove himself, groaning in the depths of darkness ! And the magistrates who persecuted the name of Jesus, liquefying in fiercer flames than they kindled in their rage against the Christians ! Those sages, too, the philosophers blushing before their disciples as they blaze together, the disciples whom they taught that God was concerned with nothing, that men have no souls at all, or that what souls they have shall never return to their former bodies ! And, then, the poets trembling before the judgement-seat, not of Rhadamanthus, not of Minos, but of Christ whom they never looked to see ! And then there will be the tragic actors to be heard, louder and more convincing now in their own tragedy ; and the players to be seen, more supple of limb by far in the fire ; and then the charioteer to watch, red all over in the wheel of flame ; and, next, the athletes to be gazed upon, not in their gymnasiums but hurled into the fire....These are the pleasures, the spectacles of Christians -- holy, eternal -- and free!!
.
A torture savored is a holy deed earned, and if they are free!! -- hoot, man !!
.
The Professor
Diamond Member
- Mar 4, 2011
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First of all, Christ chided someone for calling him good, and would not have done so if what the man said were true, so your interpretation that Christ did not mean he was not good doesn't make sense. Thus, there seems to be an inconsistency between the above two statements. Logically speaking, if Christ is not good and God is, then Christ and God cannot be the same person.
Second, there are three different views that Christians have regarding Christ's divinity. There are those Christians that believe that Jesus is merely the son of God, the father being greater than the Son; further, there are those Christians who believe that Christ is an equal part of a Divine Trinity comprised of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost; and finally, there are those Christians – like you – who believe Jesus to be God. I want you to understand that you do not speak for all of Christianity.
Third, you quote one verse in John to prove that Christ is God, but you ignore many other verses that tend to prove the contrary. I have been studying the Bible for over 60 years, and I think I might know it a little better than you, so let me enlighten you on what the rest of the Bible says:
Matthew 27:46:
“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
(One does not forsake (leave or abandon) himself; therefore that which forsakes and that which is foresaken must obviously be two different entities.)
Mark 13:32:
“But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but only the Father.”
(Since the Father knows more than the Son, they cannot possibly be the same person, nor can they be equal.)
Mark 16
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
(Clearly Jesus cannot sit on the right hand of himself, therefore Jesus and God must be two distinct entities).
Luke 22:42:
“Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”
(This verse shows that The Father and Son did not share the same objectives. The Son would just as soon have avoided His "death" but He acquiesced to the will of His Father.)
John 8:42:
“Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.”
(This verse ridicules the idea that God and Jesus are one. Jesus said He did not come of Himself, but was sent by the Father. It is axiomatic that the one who sends and the one who was sent cannot be the same person. If Jesus and the Father really were one and the same, Jesus would have come of himself, and the words He said in John 8:42 could not be true.)
John 14:28:
“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.”
(This is one of the strongest proofs that Father and Son are two separate entities and the Father is superior to the Son.)
John 20:17:
“Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”
(If Jesus is His own God, then I'm my own grandpa.)
1 Timothy 2:5-6:
“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(If Christ is a mediator BETWEEN God and men, He cannot be God. There is no doubt that Christ and God are separate entities.)
There are other verses but these will do. I am convinced that you are sincere in your beliefs, but you have to understand that others - including other Christians - do not share your belief.
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numan
What! Me Worry?
- Mar 23, 2013
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Be still, my beating heart !!
You mean that he is actually an adherent of the execrable heresy of Monarchianism -- in its most senseless and vile form, crude Modalism?
Is he so lost to reason as to think that an Infinite Deity can feel pain, or even weep?
It was to combat such deranged concepts that the battle against Monophysitism was fought so long and so hard !!
.
numan
What! Me Worry?
- Mar 23, 2013
- 2,125
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'
It is the Last Judgment. God stands before the Pearly Gates dividing
the people into two groups. To the group on His right He says, "Oh,
My true and faithful Atheists, well done! I created the world without
any evidence of My existence; indeed, all the evidence led in the
opposite direction! I gave mankind the god-like power of reason, and
you, noble atheists, used that gift properly and courageously! The
false promises of religion did not mislead you; you resisted the lure
of fables backed by Authority; childish hopes of comfort and
salvation did not deter you from uncompromisingly following the path
of reason, as you saw it, to its final conclusions. Even ridicule,
discrimination and persecution did not daunt you; the talents which I
gave you, you used and increased. For your intelligence and courage,
for your ability to reject folly and seek wisdom -- Welcome! Enter
into Eternal Glory!"
Then God turns to the group on His left and says, "You religious
fools! You infantile cowards! Through fear you refused to grow up and
become adults. You clung to fables and just-so stories. You were
unwilling to exercise the intelligence which I gave you as my most
priceless gift! No absurdity was too great, no fairy tale too
outrageous, provided it gave you childish comfort and the vain hope
that no matter what crimes you committed, some Outside Power would
reach down and save your unworthy butts! You have wasted and
corrupted My gifts! My universe has no place for such as you; I
reject you utterly! Into the Lake of Eternal Fire with you, and be
consumed!
.
It is the Last Judgment. God stands before the Pearly Gates dividing
the people into two groups. To the group on His right He says, "Oh,
My true and faithful Atheists, well done! I created the world without
any evidence of My existence; indeed, all the evidence led in the
opposite direction! I gave mankind the god-like power of reason, and
you, noble atheists, used that gift properly and courageously! The
false promises of religion did not mislead you; you resisted the lure
of fables backed by Authority; childish hopes of comfort and
salvation did not deter you from uncompromisingly following the path
of reason, as you saw it, to its final conclusions. Even ridicule,
discrimination and persecution did not daunt you; the talents which I
gave you, you used and increased. For your intelligence and courage,
for your ability to reject folly and seek wisdom -- Welcome! Enter
into Eternal Glory!"
Then God turns to the group on His left and says, "You religious
fools! You infantile cowards! Through fear you refused to grow up and
become adults. You clung to fables and just-so stories. You were
unwilling to exercise the intelligence which I gave you as my most
priceless gift! No absurdity was too great, no fairy tale too
outrageous, provided it gave you childish comfort and the vain hope
that no matter what crimes you committed, some Outside Power would
reach down and save your unworthy butts! You have wasted and
corrupted My gifts! My universe has no place for such as you; I
reject you utterly! Into the Lake of Eternal Fire with you, and be
consumed!
.
Vandalshandle
Gold Member
Those Chritians who would terrify me with visiions of everlasting hell have no chance to suceed with that, since I have already experienced Thankgsgiving dinner at my wife's family's table.
Nothing could compare with that...
Nothing could compare with that...
The Professor
Diamond Member
- Mar 4, 2011
- 16,752
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- 2,405
Reason given in post
You gotta be kidding me.
Actually, Christianity is divided over this very issue. There are those like you who believe that justification is by faith alone and good works are meaningless. However, there are those who believe that justification is by works and that faith without works is dead. Contrary to what you have said, there are quite a few verses in the Bible that deal with this subject. I admit that there are indeed verses in the Bible which support the doctrine of justification by faith alone; however, I now present to you those other verses which tend to prove otherwise:
Matthew 7:21-26:
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand”
(In the above verses, Christ is clearly saying that those who believers who have done wonderful things in His name will be condemned if they have worked iniquity, that is not obeyed the commandments).
Matthew 16:27:
“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."
Matthew 25:31-46:
“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
"Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
(Now I ask you, where in that dialogue does Christ mention anything regarding bare faith as a condition of salvation? Christ makes it crystal clear that you will be judged according to how you treat others; those who mistreat others are condemned to hell, and those who are kind to others receive eternal life with Christ.)
Matthew 19:16-21
“And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.”
(Here Christ is specifically asked what is required for salvation, and his response is to obey the commandments. Did Christ lead the man astray?)
Mark 10:17-21
“And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.”
(Again, Christ is asked how one enters into eternal life, and His response is to obey the commandments. The message could not be clearer.)
Luke 18:18-22:
“And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.”
(Here, Luke confirms what Matthew and Luke said about salvation, that according to the very words of Christ, eternal life is rewarded only to those who keep the commandments.)
Luke 19:8-9:
“And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
(This is just one example of salvation being achieved by works, in this case charity.)
1 John 2:3-5
“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. ”
(This verse couldn't make it clearer: those who do not keep the commandments do not know Christ, and those who say they do are liars. This passage shows that those who believe the “justification by faith alone” nonsense simply do not know Christ. )
John 5:28-29
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
(The above verses deal with behavior, not merely belief.)
Acts 2:38:
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
(According to the author of Acts, both baptism and Repentance (changing ones heart and conduct are prerequisites for receiving the Holy Ghost. Mere faith in Christ is not enough.)
James 1:27:
“Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.”
(This is the only place in the Bible where religion is described, and there is no mention whatsoever about bare faith being required. In this verse the Bible is confirming what Christ said in Matthew 25:31-46, that all are judged by how they treat “the least of these.”
James 2:14-20
“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?”
(This is a powerful unambiguous and irrefutable condemnation of the “justification by faith alone” doctrine preached by Paul.)
John 8:39
"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham."
Revelation 20:12
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
Revelation 22:14
“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”
(The very last book in the Bible makes it plain and simple: if you obey the commandments you have the right to the tree of life. Of course, the flip side of this coin would be that if you do not obey the commandments, you will not have the right to the tree of life.)
Once again I must tell you that I am convinced by your sincerity, however not everyone agrees with you; in fact, not every Christian agrees with you. I wouldn't be so quick to condemn and ridicule others because they do not share your belief. After all, their beliefs are based upon the same Bible as yours. They just don't interpret it the same way. I think there are passages within the Scripture that allow for different interpretation. I think that I have demonstrated this to be the case.
Edited to add: John 3:16 says, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” However, you cannot believe that Christ is the Son of God if you don't believe every word the Bible attributes to him. Mere belief in His existence is not enough.
You gotta be kidding me.
Actually, Christianity is divided over this very issue. There are those like you who believe that justification is by faith alone and good works are meaningless. However, there are those who believe that justification is by works and that faith without works is dead. Contrary to what you have said, there are quite a few verses in the Bible that deal with this subject. I admit that there are indeed verses in the Bible which support the doctrine of justification by faith alone; however, I now present to you those other verses which tend to prove otherwise:
Matthew 7:21-26:
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand”
(In the above verses, Christ is clearly saying that those who believers who have done wonderful things in His name will be condemned if they have worked iniquity, that is not obeyed the commandments).
Matthew 16:27:
“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."
Matthew 25:31-46:
“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
"Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
(Now I ask you, where in that dialogue does Christ mention anything regarding bare faith as a condition of salvation? Christ makes it crystal clear that you will be judged according to how you treat others; those who mistreat others are condemned to hell, and those who are kind to others receive eternal life with Christ.)
Matthew 19:16-21
“And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.”
(Here Christ is specifically asked what is required for salvation, and his response is to obey the commandments. Did Christ lead the man astray?)
Mark 10:17-21
“And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.”
(Again, Christ is asked how one enters into eternal life, and His response is to obey the commandments. The message could not be clearer.)
Luke 18:18-22:
“And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.”
(Here, Luke confirms what Matthew and Luke said about salvation, that according to the very words of Christ, eternal life is rewarded only to those who keep the commandments.)
Luke 19:8-9:
“And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
(This is just one example of salvation being achieved by works, in this case charity.)
1 John 2:3-5
“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. ”
(This verse couldn't make it clearer: those who do not keep the commandments do not know Christ, and those who say they do are liars. This passage shows that those who believe the “justification by faith alone” nonsense simply do not know Christ. )
John 5:28-29
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
(The above verses deal with behavior, not merely belief.)
Acts 2:38:
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
(According to the author of Acts, both baptism and Repentance (changing ones heart and conduct are prerequisites for receiving the Holy Ghost. Mere faith in Christ is not enough.)
James 1:27:
“Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.”
(This is the only place in the Bible where religion is described, and there is no mention whatsoever about bare faith being required. In this verse the Bible is confirming what Christ said in Matthew 25:31-46, that all are judged by how they treat “the least of these.”
James 2:14-20
“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?”
(This is a powerful unambiguous and irrefutable condemnation of the “justification by faith alone” doctrine preached by Paul.)
John 8:39
"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham."
Revelation 20:12
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
Revelation 22:14
“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”
(The very last book in the Bible makes it plain and simple: if you obey the commandments you have the right to the tree of life. Of course, the flip side of this coin would be that if you do not obey the commandments, you will not have the right to the tree of life.)
Once again I must tell you that I am convinced by your sincerity, however not everyone agrees with you; in fact, not every Christian agrees with you. I wouldn't be so quick to condemn and ridicule others because they do not share your belief. After all, their beliefs are based upon the same Bible as yours. They just don't interpret it the same way. I think there are passages within the Scripture that allow for different interpretation. I think that I have demonstrated this to be the case.
Edited to add: John 3:16 says, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” However, you cannot believe that Christ is the Son of God if you don't believe every word the Bible attributes to him. Mere belief in His existence is not enough.
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- Thread starter
- #34
WHAT MORE DARE little MAN ASK OF GOD??? Jhn 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Jhn 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
Jhn 3:20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Jhn 3:21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
Jhn 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Jhn 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
Jhn 3:20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Jhn 3:21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
"la dee da dee da... la dee da dee die"
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umrp1tIBY8Q]Sonny & Cher The Beat Goes On - YouTube[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umrp1tIBY8Q]Sonny & Cher The Beat Goes On - YouTube[/ame]
emilynghiem
Constitutionalist / Universalist
1. if you define hell to be "spiritual suffering" then yes there is hell to various degrees.
War is hell. sending people through the criminal justice system, especially the insanity that goes on with the death penalty is hell. being trapped in severe drug addiction or cycles of abuse is hell. If you think what people go through in countries where they are sold as slaves and trafficked for sex, and raped till they die of AIDS, that is hell.
2. any condition brought on by unforgiveness where the sins or karma of the past are repeated and projected onto others causes hell or suffering in a vicious cycle of retribution. This cycle is broken by forgiveness which the grace and salvation in Christ jesus represents collectively for all humanity.
where you are, Breezewood, hell may no longer exist in your world because you receive and share forgiveness where hell is no more. Not all people are free from suffering, and hell is more caused by not forgiving the wrongs, which continues on, rather than the ill acts or wrongs themselves which are otherwise finite and have an end. the unforgiveness from these acts is what perpetuates and repeats. so overcoming the unforgiveness is the key to breaking the cycle of ill will that causes social and spiritual mental and physical disease.
enlightenment of the mind and salvation of the spirit is found in breaking free from the suffering repeated in the material world. Forgiveness for letting go is the key to freedom.
emilynghiem
Constitutionalist / Universalist
the key is asking help with forgiveness.
praying for this opens the door for all other knowledge and understanding to come through.
the mind cannot even receive or perceive of this
until the mind lets go first by forgiveness.
so that is the key to unlocking all the other mysteries.
asking help to forgive so our minds can be let go and receive greater wisdom.
emilynghiem
Constitutionalist / Universalist
Hi Professor. It is both. The key is to distinguish and not confuse the two.
1. first is the free and unconditional grace and salvation from God through Christ that does NOT depend on earned conditions, but is the natural consequence given freely
as long as people ASK help to FORGIVE. we must ask by free will, this spiritual forgiveness can never be forced on people but must be chosen FREELY otherwise it is not sincere if forgiveness is not true but forced on people that is impossible. so this is one level.
2. the other level is where Christ fulfills justice in man's relations with neighbors.
so THIS is where the works and debts are held to account by people's words and actions.
there is restitution required in order to restore justice after wrongdoing. this is a different level, between man and man, normally governed by civil or secular laws.
do NOT mix up the two
just because spiritual grace and salvation have no price and are given freely for the askign and can never be earned or paid back only paid forward by helping others to be freed
does NOT mean
that any restitution or corrections we owed to each other as neighbors in society
is magically forgiven
these are two different levels.
after we forgive and our relations are saved in Christ
then we still work out the terms of corrections and restitution to achieve
justice in the social and physical realms.
And just because we owe for debts and damages
does NOT mean we are doing this to earn salvation.
the works FOLLOW from the faith, they are motivated by
the love and grace of God, but they are not conditions on receiving salvation.
the works follow naturally and are required for earthly justice.
God's spiritual justice is above all things and can never be earned by what we do.
these two are separate.
Christ fulfills both as the center of the cross
joining man and man as symbolized by the horizontal bar
and joining man and God as symbolized by the vertical bar
we earn forgiveness and justice by works under man's laws on the earthly level
but God's spiritual grace and forgiveness is on a higher level given freely and not earned
1. first is the free and unconditional grace and salvation from God through Christ that does NOT depend on earned conditions, but is the natural consequence given freely
as long as people ASK help to FORGIVE. we must ask by free will, this spiritual forgiveness can never be forced on people but must be chosen FREELY otherwise it is not sincere if forgiveness is not true but forced on people that is impossible. so this is one level.
2. the other level is where Christ fulfills justice in man's relations with neighbors.
so THIS is where the works and debts are held to account by people's words and actions.
there is restitution required in order to restore justice after wrongdoing. this is a different level, between man and man, normally governed by civil or secular laws.
do NOT mix up the two
just because spiritual grace and salvation have no price and are given freely for the askign and can never be earned or paid back only paid forward by helping others to be freed
does NOT mean
that any restitution or corrections we owed to each other as neighbors in society
is magically forgiven
these are two different levels.
after we forgive and our relations are saved in Christ
then we still work out the terms of corrections and restitution to achieve
justice in the social and physical realms.
And just because we owe for debts and damages
does NOT mean we are doing this to earn salvation.
the works FOLLOW from the faith, they are motivated by
the love and grace of God, but they are not conditions on receiving salvation.
the works follow naturally and are required for earthly justice.
God's spiritual justice is above all things and can never be earned by what we do.
these two are separate.
Christ fulfills both as the center of the cross
joining man and man as symbolized by the horizontal bar
and joining man and God as symbolized by the vertical bar
we earn forgiveness and justice by works under man's laws on the earthly level
but God's spiritual grace and forgiveness is on a higher level given freely and not earned
tipofthespear
Senior Member
- May 13, 2013
- 393
- 49
- 51
you are spot on...........and the other poster is correct in saying that much debate/division is caused by the Theological argument of Grace vs. Works.............people must search the Scriptures and understand that "works" are a fruit of "Grace." Grace/salvation is freely given by God, and what transpires afterwards (our works) are what we do in obedience to His Commandments...........Your comments were excellent.......
turzovka
Gold Member
- Nov 20, 2012
- 5,195
- 1,040
- 265
Matthew 25 (the final judgment) begs to differ with your bold claims. I also hate to say it this way, but I think you cheapen the gift of salvation to the extreme.
Of course I disagree with other doctrines you must maintain, such as heaven or hell awaits the soul the moment of death. Maybe…. maybe not. Purgatory awaits uncountable unaware masses, hopefully me too. Too many protestant theologies give themselves far too much credit expecting a direct flight to paradise. (that being my opinion and in the teaching of the Cathoic Church).
Finally, I read too many judgments in your definitive understandings of what our Lord is teaching us through Scripture. It is not one size fits all. Just because someone never knew Jesus does not mean they are not still allowed into heaven through Jesus. I caution you for ever thinking otherwise.
Of course I disagree with other doctrines you must maintain, such as heaven or hell awaits the soul the moment of death. Maybe…. maybe not. Purgatory awaits uncountable unaware masses, hopefully me too. Too many protestant theologies give themselves far too much credit expecting a direct flight to paradise. (that being my opinion and in the teaching of the Cathoic Church).
Finally, I read too many judgments in your definitive understandings of what our Lord is teaching us through Scripture. It is not one size fits all. Just because someone never knew Jesus does not mean they are not still allowed into heaven through Jesus. I caution you for ever thinking otherwise.
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