New Book on the Vietnam War

[rightwinger]

The 'middle class' and 'rich' in REd China are nearly all Cadre families and their relatives. Red China has sever restrictions on who can sell in their domestic markets; your company has to pay a Cadre member as a 'partner' just to have the political pull to do business there, and you have to build your factory and production lines there, no importing much in the way of finished goods. They steal a lot of tech that way. A lot of multi-national corps are fine with that, as long as they get access to slave labor and more profits, they don't give two shits about selling out the U.S.

You are just making shit up

Over 500 million Chinese are now middle class

 

[rightwinger]

Don't agree at all. Media spin is mostly lies, and using the old' tell a big enough lie often enough' gimmick reds and their useful idiots always rely on. The North got nowhere without outside help, and the South got dumped by the Watergate Babies; it's pretty straight forward why it fell, no mystery. It was doing okay, better the commie North was doing by a long shot.

The South got “outside help” from the US taking over the war and providing air support

 

[mikegriffith1]

The South got “outside help” from the US taking over the war and providing air support

This doesn't address Picaro's point that North Vietnam would have been unable to invade South Vietnam without massive support from the Soviet Union and Red China, and that the "Watergate Babies" (anti-war Democrats) dumped South Vietnam, i.e., they slashed aid to South Vietnam after the Paris Peace Accords, which tipped the balance of power and led to South Vietnam's defeat.

I devote many pages to documenting these facts in Reclaiming the Vietnam War: The Betrayal of South Vietnam.

 

[rightwinger]

This doesn't address Picaro's point that North Vietnam would have been unable to invade South Vietnam without massive support from the Soviet Union and Red China,

The point is that we turned a Civil War into a Cold War and killed millions unnecessarily

Surrogate Cold War that was not necessary

 

[mikegriffith1]

The point is that we turned a Civil War into a Cold War and killed millions unnecessarily.

Only in Liberal La La Land. Down here on Earth, there was no "civil war." North Vietnam invaded South Vietnam. South Vietnam merely wanted to be left alone and had no intention of trying to topple North Vietnam. We justifiably did not want to see the 19 million people of South Vietnam fall under Communist tyranny, so we intervened to save South Vietnam, and we succeeded.

By early 1972, South Vietnam was stable; the Viet Cong were a non-factor; and South Vietnam was making slow but steady progress toward becoming a genuine democracy. With two massive bombing campaigns, Linebacker I and Linebacker II, we decimated North Vietnam in response to Hanoi's disastrous Easter Offensive in mid-1972 and forced them to sign the Paris Accords, which crucially allowed us to resupply South Vietnam on a one-for-one basis. We were able to do so in 1973, and South Vietnam more than held its own against North Vietnam in 1973. But then Congress slashed aid to South Vietnam for 1974 and again for 1975, crippling South Vietnam's military strength and morale and enabling Hanoi to triumph.

 

[rightwinger]

We justifiably did not want to see the 19 million people of South Vietnam fall under Communist tyranny, so we intervened to save South Vietnam, and we succeeded.

Which made it a Cold War

We found out the claims of saving people from Communist tyranny was a lie
50 years later, Vietnams economy is booming

Why did we kill 2 million people to stop Vietnam from becoming a thriving economy

 

[Mushroom]

Do you have any idea about the reign of terror that the Communists imposed on South Vietnam after the war? Heard of the "boat people"? Heard of the 800,000-plus South Vietnamese who were sent to concentration camps after the war? How about the 60,000-plus executions of South Vietnamese after the war.

Or the disastrous Sino-Vietnam War of 1979 that saw half of their armed forces and most of their equipment destroyed in less than a month.

They absolutely tore up the country, and simply turned around and went home. Showing them quite clearly that their win was entirely political, militarily they never had a chance against China, let alone the US.

 

[Mushroom]

The point is that we turned a Civil War into a Cold War

A lie that is often repeated.

Tell me, was North Korea invading South Korea also a "Civil War"? If East Germany had invaded West Germany, would that have been a "Civil War"? If Ireland invaded Northern Ireland, is that also a "Civil War"?

They were different countries, that is not a civil war. That is an invasion. Just as if the PRC invades the ROC, that is an invasion and not a civil war.

The Chinese Civil War ended over seven decades ago.

Hell, even North Vietnam officially recognized the nation of South Vietnam in 1973, and promised to cease all hostilities. Then turned around before the ink was even dry and started attacking again.

 

[Mushroom]

we decimated North Vietnam in response to Hanoi's disastrous Easter Offensive in mid-1972 and forced them to sign the Paris Accords

And only after that did North Vietnam agree to come to the peace table. They absolutely refused to negotiate prior to that, but that is what forced them to finally enter talks to end the conflict. Not that it mattered, because they never really stopped attacking South Vietnam, and invaded again less then two years later.

 

[rightwinger]

Tell me, was North Korea invading South Korea also a "Civil War"? If East Germany had invaded West Germany, would that have been a "Civil War"? If Ireland invaded Northern Ireland, is that also a "Civil War"?

If the US North invaded the Confederate South is that a Civil War?

US, Russia and China getting involved in Vietnam made it a Cold War

 

[Mushroom]

US, Russia and China getting involved in Vietnam made it a Cold War

The US and USSR "getting involved" was decided by all sides during the Geneva Conference of 1954.

Indochina would be partitioned into 4 nations, with Vietnam partitioned at the 17th parallel North. And just like in Korea, the USSR was assigned to advise and assist North Vietnam, the US would advise and assist South Vietnam.

Oh, but China was never really involved in the Vietnam War after the middle 1960s. When the relationship between the CCP and USSR degraded to the point where some were worried about fighting breaking out after the Sino-Soviet Split, they ended almost all assistance to North Vietnam as it was clear they favored the Soviets over the Chinese.

Yet another reason why in 1979 the Chinese invaded Vietnam.

 

[mikegriffith1]

If the US North invaded the Confederate South is that a Civil War?

Actually, no, since the Confederacy never had any intention of trying to conquer the North or to take over the federal government. The Confederates states were not trying to take over the Union; they were trying to leave the Union. And the Union decided to use force to bring those states back into the Union. If the North had not invaded, there would have been no war. The more correct term for the war is the War Between the States.

I guess you just can't bring yourself to admit that North Vietnam was guilty of naked aggression and that there would have been no Vietnam War if North Vietnam had not invaded South Vietnam.

US, Russia and China getting involved in Vietnam made it a Cold War

Is this supposed to be your answer to the point that anti-war politicians betrayed South Vietnam after the peace accords and began slashing aid just months after the peace deal was signed? With the full amount of promised aid provided in 1973, South Vietnam actually more than held its own in 1973, proving that it could survive as long as we honored the peace treaty provision of providing one-for-one replacement of military supplies. But the anti-war majority in Congress slashed aid for 1974 and 1975, crippling South Vietnam's morale and military capacity.

Just face it: Your side handed over 19 million people to brutal tyranny that caused the deaths of at least 200,000 people over the next six years.

 

[GLASNOST]

North Vietnam invaded South Vietnam. ..... We justifiably did not want to see the 19 million people of South Vietnam fall under Communist tyranny, so we intervened to save South Vietnam, and we succeeded.

..... South Vietnam was making slow but steady progress toward becoming a genuine democracy ......

What a load of shit. There was no civil war, there was no South Vietnam. Vietnam was always one country. Simply stated, the French colonialists favoured the Catholic minority in Vietnam and (often) treated the Buddhist majority like second class citizens. The Catholic Vietnamese were sitting pretty and wanted it to continue that way but the Buddhists did not. The Communist movement (led by Ho Chi Minh) threw the French out and had prepared to hold Democratic national elections. The US put the kabash on the elections and faked a civil war by moving as many Catholics to the south of the country and claiming it a nation unto itself. Other than the minority of Catholics, none of the Vietnamese were happy about that arrangement so they took up arms against the Americans and threw them out just as they had done to the French.

 

[GLASNOST]

..... North Vietnam agree to come to the peace table. They absolutely refused to negotiate prior to that, but that is what forced them to finally enter talks to end the conflict. Not that it mattered, because they never really stopped attacking South Vietnam, and invaded again less then two years later.

Vietnam refused to allow half of of its country be colonised. They had just won independence over France and they were not willing to stretch out its colonialisation no matter it be the French or the Americans. Vietnam's "negotiation" was merely to dictate the US surrender. You can call it a "negotiation" if you like. Who cares what you call it? The Vietnamese got their country back and that's all that matters.

 

[GLASNOST]

US, Russia and China getting involved in Vietnam made it a Cold War

I think it is correct in saying that.

 

[Soupnazi630]

What a load of shit. There was no civil war, there was no South Vietnam. Vietnam was always one country. Simply stated, the French colonialists favoured the Catholic minority in Vietnam and (often) treated the Buddhist majority like second class citizens. The Catholic Vietnamese were sitting pretty and wanted it to continue that way but the Buddhists did not. The Communist movement (led by Ho Chi Minh) threw the French out and had prepared to hold Democratic national elections. The US put the kabash on the elections and faked a civil war by moving as many Catholics to the south of the country and claiming it a nation unto itself. Other than the minority of Catholics, none of the Vietnamese were happy about that arrangement so they took up arms against the Americans and threw them out just as they had done to the French.

Wrong

Vietnam was actually two seperate kingdoms divided north and south going back centuries

It was not one country

You are massively ignorant