Fifty Years After Saigon: Remembering the Nobility of a Betrayed Cause

[AZrailwhale]

Bollocks!! that just makes you feel better, are you telling me Vietnam wasn't part of the French colonial Empire just like Algeria and many others?

South Vietnam (RVN) was an independent country just like North Vietnam (DRVN) was. Both had seats in the UN. Both were internationally recognized as independent states. So it WAS an invasion by a foreign country.

 

[Deadstick]

South Vietnam (RVN) was an independent country just like North Vietnam (DRVN) was. Both had seats in the UN. Both were internationally recognized as independent states. So it WAS an invasion by a foreign country.

South Vietnam never had a seat at the UN and North Vietnam didn't, the dividing of the Country was only a temporary measure as laid down in the Geneva UN conference until a referendum/Election was held to decide on the unification of the Country, the South and the Americans refused to take part because they knew they would have lost, so don't try and bullshit me with your lies.

 

[Juan de Fuca]

It was LBJ's war but they still manage to blame Nixon

Nixon was responsible for the war the longest and his betrayal involving the Paris Peace Accords, left him with an ignoble and shameful history.

"The treason came in 1968 as the Vietnam War reached a critical turning point. President Lyndon Johnson was desperate for a truce between North and South Vietnam." Published as the 40th Anniversary of Nixon's resignation approaches, Will's column confirms that Nixon feared public disclosure of his role in sabotaging the 1968 Vietnam peace talks. Will says Nixon established a "plumbers unit" to stop potential leaks of information that might damage him, including documentation he believed was held by the Brookings Institute, a liberal think tank. The Plumbers' later break-in at the Democratic National Committee led to the Watergate scandal that brought Nixon down. Nixon's sabotage of the Vietnam peace talks was confirmed by transcripts of FBI wiretaps. On November 2, 1968, LBJ received an FBI report saying Chernnault told the South Vietnamese ambassador that "she had received a message from her boss: saying the Vietnamese should "hold on, we are gonna win." As Will confirms, Vietnamese did "hold on," the war proceeded and Nixon did win, changing forever the face of American politics----with the shadow of treason permanently embedded in its DNA. ..
"In the four years between the sabotage and what Kissinger termed "peace at hand" just prior to the 1972 election, more than 20,000 US troops died in Vietnam. More than 100,000 were wounded. More than a million Vietnamese were killed."

George Will confirms Nixon's Vietnam treason

The new release of extended versions of Nixon's papers now confirms this long-standing belief, usually dismissed as a 'conspiracy theory' by Republican conservatives. Now it has been substantiated by none other than right-wing columnist George Will.

www.opednews.com

 

[AZrailwhale]

South Vietnam never had a seat at the UN and North Vietnam didn't, the dividing of the Country was only a temporary measure as laid down in the Geneva UN conference until a referendum/Election was held to decide on the unification of the Country, the South and the Americans refused to take part because they knew they would have lost, so don't try and bullshit me with your lies.

I was wrong, but only because the USSR vetoed the seat. The RVN was recognized by the majority of existing nations as a country while North Vietnam was only recognized as a nation by China.

 

[Soupnazi630]

Bollocks!! that just makes you feel better, are you telling me Vietnam wasn't part of the French colonial Empire just like Algeria and many others?

We were not fighting their war moron

Do try and stick to the subject

 

[Soupnazi630]

South Vietnam never had a seat at the UN and North Vietnam didn't, the dividing of the Country was only a temporary measure as laid down in the Geneva UN conference until a referendum/Election was held to decide on the unification of the Country, the South and the Americans refused to take part because they knew they would have lost, so don't try and bullshit me with your lies.

Wrong

The US did not refuse to take part because gthey had no part to take.

Minh cancelled the elections, seized power and then invaded the south.

You are the one consistently posting lies

 

[EdwinAMartin]

But with Nixon forced from office, Congress fell into the hands of men more concerned with leftist politics than principle. Nixon won 49 states in 1972. In the aftermath of Watergate, in 1974, Democrats won overwhelming Congressional majorities: almost 300 House seats, and a filibuster-proof 61 in the Senate.

I agree it was disgraceful and sad how the Watergate Babies abandoned an ally to feral scumbag mass murderers, and also how badly the propaganda has distorted our aid and support for the South, but when one looks at the vote to abandon them a big chunk of Republicans voted for it and put HR 17234 over the top. Democrats were more divided., but yes a majority voted for that criminal abandonment.

TO PASS H.R. 17234. -- House Vote #1038 -- Dec. 11, 1974

House Vote #1038 in 1974, in the United States Congress.

www.govtrack.us

TO PASS S. 3394. -- Senate Vote #1090 -- Dec. 4, 1974

Senate Vote #1090 in 1974, in the United States Congress.

www.govtrack.us

 

[EdwinAMartin]

Could not win it if the NVA and VC would not give up.

If we would not invade NV, and the American people would never have settled for that.

The Joint Chiefs did not know what Red China would do, and after the Korean War, we did not to find out.

Even Senate Majority Leader LBJ put the kabosh on carrier plane strikes on Dien Bien Phu to save the French in 1954. VP Nixon was all for it, though.

We did lose a lot of men and women, though. Do see "A Piece of My Heart" at a dinner theatre. It will break your heart.

Without Soviet aid the North could never win even in the North. It is only when our own Congressional cowards voted to defund the South, while the Reds continued to fund the Communists in the North, that the South fell.

The irony here being that the Soviet economy collapsed in 1972-73, and the West was feeding them and supplying the Soviets with refined petroleum products as well as wheat and other commodities.

 

[Deadstick]

Wrong

The US did not refuse to take part because gthey had no part to take.

Minh cancelled the elections, seized power and then invaded the south.

You are the one consistently posting lies

Stop lying.
Hanoi lost out because the elections that were to guarantee the country’s reunification were postponed indefinitely by the United States and by South Vietnam, which was created on a de facto basis at this time.

 

[mikegriffith1]

So, speaking as someone completely not involved, per the OP, who betrayed the cause? We fought under both Dem and repub Admins. We bombed the region far more than WW2. At one point we had 500K troops there yes? SO was it South Vietnam that betrayed us?

A truly inane comment from another liberal who's apparently done very little reading on the war.

South Vietnam betrayed us?! That's just sick. I know you have no clue about any of this stuff, but, FYI, we've known for over a decade from disclosed/declassified North Vietnamese sources that the North Vietnamese acknowledged in their internal reports that South Vietnam's army often fought capably and tenaciously, that the American war effort was succeeding, that the losses from the Tet Offensive were horrendous and catastrophic, and that by 1971 the Communists had not only lost control of most of South Vietnam but no longer even had access to most of South Vietnam's population because they had been pushed into small pockets in sparsely populated areas.

These facts are documented and discussed in several scholarly works, such as Dr. Mark Moyar's books Triumph Forsaken and Triumph Regained, Dr. George Jay Veith's books Drawn Swords in a Distant Land: South Vietnam's Shattered Dreams and Black April: The Fall of South Vietnam, 1973-1975, and Major General (USA, Ret.) Ira Hunt's book Losing Vietnam: How America Abandoned Southeast Asia.

I should add that some so-called "libertarians" likewise repeat falsehoods and distortions about the Vietnam War. That said, the vast majority of those who smear our noble effort in the Vietnam War are liberals.

 

[Zincwarrior]

A truly inane comment from another liberal who's apparently done very little reading on the war.

South Vietnam betrayed us?! That's just sick. I know you have no clue about any of this stuff, but, FYI, we've known for over a decade from disclosed/declassified North Vietnamese sources that the North Vietnamese acknowledged in their internal reports that South Vietnam's army often fought capably and tenaciously, that the American war effort was succeeding, that the losses from the Tet Offensive were horrendous and catastrophic, and that by 1971 the Communists had not only lost control of most of South Vietnam but no longer even had access to most of South Vietnam's population because they had been pushed into small pockets in sparsely populated areas.

These facts are documented and discussed in several scholarly works, such as Dr. Mark Moyar's books Triumph Forsaken and Triumph Regained, Dr. George Jay Veith's books Drawn Swords in a Distant Land: South Vietnam's Shattered Dreams and Black April: The Fall of South Vietnam, 1973-1975, and Major General (USA, Ret.) Ira Hunt's book Losing Vietnam: How America Abandoned Southeast Asia.

I should add that some so-called "libertarians" likewise repeat falsehoods and distortions about the Vietnam War. That said, the vast majority of those who smear our noble effort in the Vietnam War are liberals.

I haven't because it was nearly seventy years ago. Who cares?

 

[Soupnazi630]

Stop lying.
Hanoi lost out because the elections that were to guarantee the country’s reunification were postponed indefinitely by the United States and by South Vietnam, which was created on a de facto basis at this time.

You are the one lying here.
,
The US did not postpone anything. The US was not in charge of holding , scheduling , organizing or controlling the election in any manner. It was Ho Chi Minh who cancelled them and seized power.

Then he attacked and invaded the south. HE was the imperialist and history proves these facts

 

[Deadstick]

You are the one lying here.
,
The US did not postpone anything. The US was not in charge of holding , scheduling , organizing or controlling the election in any manner. It was Ho Chi Minh who cancelled them and seized power.

Then he attacked and invaded the south. HE was the imperialist and history proves these facts

You are a serial liar who is beyond help.

 

[Soupnazi630]

You are a serial liar who is beyond help.

Those are fact it is YOU lying.

There was never any action by the US to stop delay or postpone elections. Ho Chi Minn cancelled them that is peoven fact[

You really are a lying fool of no integrity

 

[Deadstick]

Those are fact it is YOU lying.

There was never any action by the US to stop delay or postpone elections. Ho Chi Minn cancelled them that is peoven fact[

You really are a lying fool of no integrity

No you are lying

South Vietnam refused to participate in the nationwide elections mandated by the Geneva Accords. Ngo Dinh Diem, the South Vietnamese leader, held a fraudulent referendum in 1955 instead of allowing the scheduled elections to be held in July 1956. This refusal to participate in the elections was a significant factor in escalating tensions between North and South Vietnam, ultimately leading to the Vietnam War.

 

[Soupnazi630]

No you are lying

South Vietnam refused to participate in the nationwide elections mandated by the Geneva Accords. Ngo Dinh Diem, the South Vietnamese leader, held a fraudulent referendum in 1955 instead of allowing the scheduled elections to be held in July 1956. This refusal to participate in the elections was a significant factor in escalating tensions between North and South Vietnam, ultimately leading to the Vietnam War.

No I am stating facts. Diem had no control over elections in the north, It was Minh who cancelled them.

Minh was NEVER elected and blamed the south after he cancelled elections and siezed power. After which he massacred tens of thousands of North vietnamese and launched a war.

 

[Soupnazi630]

No you are lying

South Vietnam refused to participate in the nationwide elections mandated by the Geneva Accords. Ngo Dinh Diem, the South Vietnamese leader, held a fraudulent referendum in 1955 instead of allowing the scheduled elections to be held in July 1956. This refusal to participate in the elections was a significant factor in escalating tensions between North and South Vietnam, ultimately leading to the Vietnam War.

So in post number 229 you claimed that south the vietnamese government cancelled elections at the same time that they were created and therefore north vietnam lost out

You keep ignoring how north vietnam came to be in the first place BEFORE south vietnam. They existed first because Ho Chi Minh cancelled elections and seized power.

You are contradicting yourself all over the place because you are desperate to lie and twist the facts of history to suit your agenda



Link to the elections which Ho Chi Minh won and made him the ruler of North Vietnam or it proves beyond question that the only dishonest liar here is YOU

 

[Deadstick]

So in post number 229 you claimed that south the vietnamese government cancelled elections at the same time that they were created and therefore north vietnam lost out

You keep ignoring how north vietnam came to be in the first place BEFORE south vietnam. They existed first because Ho Chi Minh cancelled elections and seized power.

You are contradicting yourself all over the place because you are desperate to lie and twist the facts of history to suit your agenda



Link to the elections which Ho Chi Minh won and made him the ruler of North Vietnam or it proves beyond question that the only dishonest liar here is YOU

You are the liar because North and South Vietnam didn't exist until after the UN Geneva conference which was a temporary measure until the election to decide on unification of the Country, before that is was just Vietnam which was occupied from 1863 by the French Colonialists also including Cambodia and Laos, give it up you won't win this one.

 

[Moonglow]

Yes it was you ignorant shit head. The two vietnamas were seperate kingdoms for centuries.

It never took place because Minh cancelled elections and then attacked the south. North Vietnam was not a legitimate nation and Ming sieczed power illegally and started the war

I DO know what i am tralking about you on the other hand are a ******* fool regurgitating propaganda

Reunification: The country was reunified in 1802 by Nguyen Anh (Emperor Gia Long), establishing the Nguyễn dynasty and shifting the capital to Huế. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

 

[Soupnazi630]

You are the liar because North and South Vietnam didn't exist until after the UN Geneva conference which was a temporary measure until the election to decide on unification of the Country, before that is was just Vietnam which was occupied from 1863 by the French Colonialists also including Cambodia and Laos, give it up you won't win this one.

Wrong

The two kingdoms existed for centuries

NOT one unified vietnam

I have won this one

You consistently lie like a coward and spread falsehoods. The election was cancelled by minh who then started the war of agrrssion against rhe south