My view on why our economy is pure shit.

[samjones]

So, lets see how it worked....
Something like that, eh?

Itfitzme reminds me of JFK.... not the president, the movie, because about halfway through his posts I'm always thinking wtf is this babbling bunch of bullshit and wtf does it keep going on and on and on and wtf did I drink that megasized Coke and then sit in the center of the row...

I'll help you, mark to market accounting was the Lee Harvey Oswald of the Financial Crisis of '08 and they acted alone.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

So, lets see how it worked.

We live in a capitalist economy.

Is there one economics text in the entire world that would agree with that?? As far as I know they all describe it as a mixed economy.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I'll help you, mark to market accounting was the Lee Harvey Oswald of the Financial Crisis of '08 and they acted alone.

mark to market was only one element of the bad accounting that led to the crisis.

 

[IndependntLogic]

So, I have realized that since the Occupy movement, quite a few people do not understand capitalism. OWS was convinced that capitalism was the cause of their problems and personal failures. Unfortunately, they succumbed to mistaking capitalism for corporatism. If you do not know the difference, please google it. If you think corporatism is capitalism, you will seek government intervention in a way that surpasses corporatism, and that is socialism. These OWSers have it backwards, as do many of Americans.

Capitalism is not the problem, it is the solution. Capitalism has not existed for a century. How about we give it another shot? Get government out of the subsidy game, get government out of anything involving business. Government's only job is to regulate currency and they can't even get that right (see article 1 section 8).

Corporatism is not capitalism...and socialism is not the answer. Get the government out. Restore capitalism.

Thank you.

Okay. I hereby declare the end of libraries (because after all, their existence for a hundred years eliminated the existence of all book stores and Amazon!), universities, roads, clean water, safe food, safe vehicles etc... as of today.

Of course America has always had social programs in place - even before it became America, so by your definition, we were never capitalists. Bummer.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Of course America has always had social programs in place -

yes but now they are reaching a soviet level and so the economy is performing worse and worse. Don't forget, the second Red China switched to "mostly capitalism" they saved 30 million from en masse liberal starvation. What more do you need to know?

 

[IndependntLogic]

Of course America has always had social programs in place -

yes but now they are reaching a soviet level and so the economy is performing worse and worse. Don't forget, the second Red China switched to "mostly capitalism" they saved 30 million from en masse liberal starvation. What more do you need to know?

China? Really, that's your example? You realize that over two hundred million people in China live on less than a dollar a day, right? That legal sweatshops and indentured servitude is common there? That's your example?

What more I need to know????

Do you think I don't find waste or over-regulation in our government, just because I don't read and quote from the Libertarian Pamphlet?
I would bet we agree on much and that where we disagree, it's just a matter of specifics and degree. Unless you think there should be NO social programs, in which case I would find you extreme. I don't get that sense from you though.
I could be wrong but where I find flaws in the logic or thinking of you and Liberty, is just seem to be strong Libertarians to me. I find a lot of what Libertarians forward, makes sense and just isn't practical and much has been proven to be far from realistic.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

China? Really, that's your example? You realize that over two hundred million people in China live on less than a dollar a day, right? That legal sweatshops and indentured servitude is common there? That's your example?

What more I need to know????

as a liberal this will be mostly over your head. Today, 15 million can buy cars in Republican capitalist China, yesterday 15 million starved to death in liberal China. Is that simple enough?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I find a lot of what Libertarians forward, makes sense and just isn't practical and much has been proven to be far from realistic.

why not pick your best example and we can begin your education? Its our duty to help liberals.

 

[snjmom]

Did you just say Republican capitalist China?

OMFG.

Cisco and Chinese Political Prisoners

Prisoners as Subsidized Labor


Let me tell you something about government support of industry. If we actually stop, we will be swallowed by those countries that do. Our problem is we don't concentrate on start-up industries but support and subsidize mature industries.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Did you just say Republican capitalist China?

OMFG.

it used to be largely communist, now its largely capitalist with about 80% of the economy in private hands.

 

[snjmom]

It is still a communist country, if you consider communism a political description. It was the republican part I was guffawing about.

China is a prime example of the fallacy that capitalism promotes democracy.

 

[IndependntLogic]

China? Really, that's your example? You realize that over two hundred million people in China live on less than a dollar a day, right? That legal sweatshops and indentured servitude is common there? That's your example?

What more I need to know????

as a liberal this will be mostly over your head. Today, 15 million can buy cars in Republican capitalist China, yesterday 15 million starved to death in liberal China. Is that simple enough?

LOL! Dude your heinous whackjobbery is showing.
1. You call me a Liberal eh? I consider people Liberal or Conservative based on their overall political views. What are you basing this on? Ah. The same ignorance of me that you show in your post about China.
2. How much business do you do in China? How about in more "purely capitalistic" countries like say, The Ukraine or Mexico?
So let's see. Hmmm. As a whackjob, it's over your head that there is no "Liberal" China and "Republican Capitalist China". BUT if you want to go there fine.
3. I have clients in Beijing and Shanghai. Which would you consider more "Liberal" or "Republican Capitalist" and why? How about rural China? Is there a region that is more "Liberal" or Captialist?
4. Do these "Republican Capitalist" Chinese you're referring to, not have access to government healthcare? Government run schools and universities? Or are they "Public Health Care & Education Using Republican Capitalists"?
Time for you to dodge, change the subject or Cut & Run there junior.
5. In regards to your challenge to provide something that Libertarians profess which is not realistic, I'm happy to. Let's start with the basis of the movement: "If a company is bad or harmful to the public, there is no need for government intervention as The Magical Market will make sure it does not survive." This would be what is known in the world of reality as "complete bs".

 

[IndependntLogic]

Did you just say Republican capitalist China?

OMFG.

Cisco and Chinese Political Prisoners

Prisoners as Subsidized Labor

Let me tell you something about government support of industry. If we actually stop, we will be swallowed by those countries that do. Our problem is we don't concentrate on start-up industries but support and subsidize mature industries.

LOL! Yeah no shet! This guy is one of those "internet experts" with all those lovely FOX & Drudge regurgitations.
While Chinese companies are "private", virtually all of them are financed and run with the help of the government. And gee, Hmmmm. Do any of those government officials have private ownership in these wonderful "private" companies? Never!
I wonder if he was one of those people who complained about government intereference in GM? Say it isn't so!!!!

 

[samjones]

I'll help you, mark to market accounting was the Lee Harvey Oswald of the Financial Crisis of '08 and they acted alone.

mark to market was only one element of the bad accounting that led to the crisis.

Okay - so I agree with this. Off-balance sheet accounting practices were wildly culpable in the Financial Crisis of '08. Mark to market accounting was the Lee Harvey Oswald of the Housing Bubble that was the root cause of the Financial Crisis.

A little bit of careless characterization on my part. Thanks for correcting.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Mark to market accounting was the Lee Harvey Oswald of the Housing Bubble that was the root cause of the Financial Crisis.
.

not according to major Newspspers and Economists on left and right:

"First consider the once controversial view that the crisis was largely caused by the Fed's holding interest rates too low for too long after the 2001 recession. This view is now so widely held that the editorial pages of both the NY Times and the Wall Street Journal agree on its validity!"...John B. Taylor( arch conservative, author of the Taylor Rule)


" The Federal reserve having done so much to create the problems in which the economy is now mired, having mistakenly thought that even after the housing bubble burst the problems were contained, and having underestimated the severity of the crisis, now wants to make a contribution to preventing the economy from sinking into a Japanese Style malaise....... - "Joseph Stiglitz

 

[IndependntLogic]

Mark to market accounting was the Lee Harvey Oswald of the Housing Bubble that was the root cause of the Financial Crisis.
.

not according to major Newspspers and Economists on left and right:

"First consider the once controversial view that the crisis was largely caused by the Fed's holding interest rates too low for too long after the 2001 recession. This view is now so widely held that the editorial pages of both the NY Times and the Wall Street Journal agree on its validity!"...John B. Taylor( arch conservative, author of the Taylor Rule)


" The Federal reserve having done so much to create the problems in which the economy is now mired, having mistakenly thought that even after the housing bubble burst the problems were contained, and having underestimated the severity of the crisis, now wants to make a contribution to preventing the economy from sinking into a Japanese Style malaise....... - "Joseph Stiglitz

Ah you're back. I see you Cut & Ran from the post asking you to directly address facts etc... Wise move.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

LOL! Dude your heinous whackjobbery is showing.
1. You call me a Liberal eh? I consider people Liberal or Conservative based on their overall political views. What are you basing this on?

you say you are independent of the brains to make a decision. To me thats smells liberal.

there is no "Liberal" China and "Republican Capitalist China".

Im afraid all agree that since 1978 China has made huge economic strides as it has switched to capitalism. Sorry!!

BUT if you want to go there fine.
3. I have clients in Beijing and Shanghai. Which would you consider more "Liberal" or "Republican Capitalist" and why? How about rural China? Is there a region that is more "Liberal" or Captialist?

yes yes of course there are huge differences over time and place since no one has a magic want to use to make all of China instantly Republican capitalist but their direction since 1978 is very very clear indeed.

4. Do these "Republican Capitalist" Chinese you're referring to, not have access to government healthcare? Government run schools and universities? Or are they "Public Health Care & Education Using Republican Capitalists"?
Time for you to dodge, change the subject or Cut & Run there junior.

cut and run from what?? you have created a strawman not remotely related to our subject??? Who was talking about health care??????

5. In regards to your challenge to provide something that Libertarians profess which is not realistic, I'm happy to. Let's start with the basis of the movement: "If a company is bad or harmful to the public, there is no need for government intervention as The Magical Market will make sure it does not survive." This would be what is known in the world of reality as "complete bs".

Well if you feel it is BS you must say why. Did it occur to you to present a reason for feeling it is BS? Yu says its BS; libertarians don't. Does that resolve the issue; have you demonstrated that libertarians are whackjobs???? Think before you post please!!

Only a fool believes one political party or ideology is right all the time.

so then why be so afraid to give your best example of where liberals were right even once and conservatives wrong even once.

 

[samjones]

Mark to market accounting was the Lee Harvey Oswald of the Housing Bubble that was the root cause of the Financial Crisis.
.

not according to major Newspspers and Economists on left and right:

"First consider the once controversial view that the crisis was largely caused by the Fed's holding interest rates too low for too long after the 2001 recession. This view is now so widely held that the editorial pages of both the NY Times and the Wall Street Journal agree on its validity!"...John B. Taylor( arch conservative, author of the Taylor Rule)


" The Federal reserve having done so much to create the problems in which the economy is now mired, having mistakenly thought that even after the housing bubble burst the problems were contained, and having underestimated the severity of the crisis, now wants to make a contribution to preventing the economy from sinking into a Japanese Style malaise....... - "Joseph Stiglitz

Yes, you quoted Stiglitz and Taylor before, but it simply shows limited pedagogical thinking on their part to immediately assume that this crisis *MUST* be due to Fed policy. In the case of Taylor it was self-serving, too, because the Fed's problem (or course) was that they didn't follow his bloody "rule".

Bottom-line, nobody's listening. I guess we're all wrong and those 2 geniuses must be right because we're still talking about securitization of mortgages and CRA and subprimes and mark to market accounting and things like that.

 

[IndependntLogic]

LOL! Dude your heinous whackjobbery is showing.
1. You call me a Liberal eh? I consider people Liberal or Conservative based on their overall political views. What are you basing this on?

you say you are independent of the brains to make a decision. To me thats smells liberal.

there is no "Liberal" China and "Republican Capitalist China".

Im afraid all agree that since 1978 China has made huge economic strides as it has switched to capitalism. Sorry!!



yes yes of course there are huge differences over time and place since no one has a magic want to use to make all of China instantly Republican capitalist but their direction since 1978 is very very clear indeed.




cut and run from what?? you have created a strawman not remotely related to our subject??? Who was talking about health care??????

5. In regards to your challenge to provide something that Libertarians profess which is not realistic, I'm happy to. Let's start with the basis of the movement: "If a company is bad or harmful to the public, there is no need for government intervention as The Magical Market will make sure it does not survive." This would be what is known in the world of reality as "complete bs".

Well if you feel it is BS you must say why. Did it occur to you to present a reason for feeling it is BS? Yu says its BS; libertarians don't. Does that resolve the issue; have you demonstrated that libertarians are whackjobs???? Think before you post please!!

Only a fool believes one political party or ideology is right all the time.

so then why be so afraid to give your best example of where liberals were right even once and conservatives wrong even once.

Okay so you're ignorant when it comes to China. Got it. You're also pretty good at dodging questions! Kudos. You make a fine Libertarian. Let's see if you keep dodging. I'll dumb the questions down SO FAR, even you will understand:

1. True or false: Virtually every "private" company in China gets tremendous financial and other kinds of help from the government? So much so, you would call them examples of "Socialism" if we did the same thing with say GE?

2. True or False: All of China enjoys a public health option, public education through the univerity level (and guess who decides who gets to attend? The government!), and ministers are the most common owners of businesses so there IS no part that is "Capitalist Republican" as ConservaRepubLitarians would define it?

3. Or is your definition of "Republican Capitalist" government run health, education, ownership of private companies, taking the money from citizens and giving it directly to the companies they own?

Finally, I'll try not to return your petty insults. When I say you are ignorant of China, I mean it in the definitive sense: That your posts show you just have no knowledge of Chinese business. But I might be wrong! Soooo

4. My clients include Cooley, Jones Day, Allen & Overy etc... Who are yours and from where have you gleaned your knowledge of business in China?


(I'm thinking there will be no direct reponses to this one...)

 

[Uncensored2008]

it used to be largely communist, now its largely capitalist with about 80% of the economy in private hands.

I think your stats might be a little off.