MW advocates - what are the downsides of minimum wage?

[anynameyouwish]

It is valuable

Unfortunately, society doesn't agree with you. We can try to change that by decree, but it probably won't work. You nailed it earlier in the thread, "the market adjusts, it always does".

I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to improve the lot of the poor. They're getting fucked by our legal structure in very real and tragic ways. But MW is delusional. It doesn't help but pretends that it does.

""the market adjusts, it always does".

are you serious?

the market doesn't do anything.

PEOPLE adjust.

The people actually controlling the economy do the adjusting.

 

[dblack]

I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to improve the lot of the poor. They're getting fucked by our legal structure in very real and tragic ways. But MW is delusional. It doesn't help but pretends that it does.

Bullshit. You admit that the poor are getting screwed by our system...you just don't want to do anything about it

That's not true. I just don't want to dink around populist nonsense. MW is like the "wall". It resonates with the dummies, but is just a waste of time the doesn't address real problems.

 

[Lesh]

And the reason they have no negotiating power is that their labor isn't worth much to society.

THAT is a "flaw in the system" mitigated by minimum wage requirements

 

[rightwinger]

I would support getting away from a national minimum wage
One size fits all does not represent our cost of living.
Not by state but by economic zones representing cost of living in different areas

Take setting minimum wages away from Congress. They are incapable of handling it

 

[dblack]

And the reason they have no negotiating power is that their labor isn't worth much to society.

THAT is a "flaw in the system" mitigated by minimum wage requirements

It's not a flaw in the system. It's a "flaw" in reality. You can't change how people value things by decree. It would be the same under social democracy. Even if we were democratically assigning all wages with government, burger flipping would be at the bottom because it simply isn't valuable to most of us.

 

[danielpalos]

I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to improve the lot of the poor. They're getting fucked by our legal structure in very real and tragic ways. But MW is delusional. It doesn't help but pretends that it does.

Bullshit. You admit that the poor are getting screwed by our system...you just don't want to do anything about it

That's not true. I just don't want to dink around populist nonsense. MW is like the "wall". It resonates with the dummies, but is just a waste of time the doesn't address real problems.

a cost of living adjustment.

 

[danielpalos]

And the reason they have no negotiating power is that their labor isn't worth much to society.

THAT is a "flaw in the system" mitigated by minimum wage requirements

It's not a flaw in the system. It's a "flaw" in reality. You can't change how people value things by decree. It would be the same under social democracy. Even if we were democratically assigning all wages with government, burger flipping would be at the bottom because it simply isn't valuable to most of us.

Congress is delegated that very Power.

 

[Lesh]

burger flipping would be at the bottom because it simply isn't valuable to most of us.

Then if it has so little value we should not expect an adult human to do it.

It's that simple. I own a business. My OWN minimum salary is $15/hr because I wouldn't expect anyone to work for any less. If I couldn't pay that much I would have to reassess my business model

 

[candycorn]

It is valuable

Unfortunately, society doesn't agree with you. We can try to change that by decree, but it probably won't work. You nailed it earlier in the thread, "the market adjusts, it always does".

I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to improve the lot of the poor. They're getting fucked by our legal structure in very real and tragic ways. But MW is delusional. It doesn't help but pretends that it does.

""the market adjusts, it always does".

are you serious?

the market doesn't do anything.

PEOPLE adjust.

The people actually controlling the economy do the adjusting.

I know the counter argument will be “that is people” but here it goes anyway….

If the gas station on the right has gas at $2.50 a gallon, the gas station on the left is compelled to set theirs at around $2.50 a gallon or so. If one raises or lowers the price, the other follows suit. Too high and you lose business, too low and you lose profit. That is the market adjusting.

In the macro, the price per gallon is decided by the same market forces. Those who draw the petroleum from the ground have crude oil. It’s called crude because it’s undeveloped and unusable. Try putting some in your car some day. You won’t go anywhere.

What they have to do is sell the crude to those who wish to refine it into something usable; jet fuel, gasoline, etc… Aramco sells it at whatever they can get for it based on the market. Other petroleum companies sell product based on market; too high and they lose customers, too low and they lose profit.

The refiners take the crude and turn it into fuel. They sell it to the retail marketplace, the Shell Station on the corner, the jet fuel dispensary at the airport, and other products. Too high and they lose customers, too low and they lose profit.

The gas station’s price reflects the upstream market prices. The gasoline in their underground tanks does not, in any way, reflect he price on the sign you see at the station on the left or right.

Markets set the price.
Individuals do not.

PS: Whether it is rice, papayas, cotton, corn, sugar, soybeans, or internet bandwidth, the same types of market influences set the price. This is why the prices are pretty much the same everywhere.

 

[dblack]

burger flipping would be at the bottom because it simply isn't valuable to most of us.

Then if it has so little value we should not expect an adult human to do it.

I don't. But if they want to anyway, it's their business.

What you all can't seem to accept is that some jobs aren't worth minimum wage. And what you're saying with MW laws is that those jobs shouldn't be allowed.

 

[dblack]

"the market adjusts, it always does".

are you serious?

Well, the quote is from rightwinger, but yeah, I'm serious.

the market doesn't do anything.

PEOPLE adjust.

The people actually controlling the economy do the adjusting.

Of course the market IS people. What else would it be?

 

[rightwinger]

burger flipping would be at the bottom because it simply isn't valuable to most of us.

Then if it has so little value we should not expect an adult human to do it.

I don't. But if they want to anyway, it's their business.

What you all can't seem to accept is that some jobs aren't worth minimum wage. And what you're saying with MW laws is that those jobs shouldn't be allowed.

An employee makes a profit off of every worker

 

[Lesh]

What you all can't seem to accept is that some jobs aren't worth minimum wage. And what you're saying with MW laws is that those jobs shouldn't be allowed.

Slavery is outlawed. What you are suggesting is "soft" slavery.

 

[dblack]

What you all can't seem to accept is that some jobs aren't worth minimum wage. And what you're saying with MW laws is that those jobs shouldn't be allowed.

Slavery is outlawed. What you are suggesting is "soft" slavery.

Nope. What I'm suggesting is strictly voluntary.

 

[Skull Pilot]

burger flipping would be at the bottom because it simply isn't valuable to most of us.

Then if it has so little value we should not expect an adult human to do it.

I don't. But if they want to anyway, it's their business.

What you all can't seem to accept is that some jobs aren't worth minimum wage. And what you're saying with MW laws is that those jobs shouldn't be allowed.

An employee makes a profit off of every worker

So what?

If you don't want people making money from the labor you sell then work for yourself and keep all the profit

 

[dblack]

If you don't want people making money from the labor you sell then work for yourself and keep all the profit

The problem with that answer is that the regulatory burden of starting and running a business presents an artificial barrier to entry that makes it much harder than it should be for poor people to work for themselves. THAT's where "soft slavery" comes into play. We have an entire body of law designed to drive the poor into "employment" and keep them there. That's why we have employer-provided health care, for example.

 

[Skull Pilot]

burger flipping would be at the bottom because it simply isn't valuable to most of us.

Then if it has so little value we should not expect an adult human to do it.

I don't. But if they want to anyway, it's their business.

What you all can't seem to accept is that some jobs aren't worth minimum wage. And what you're saying with MW laws is that those jobs shouldn't be allowed.

An employee makes a profit off of every worker

So what?

If you don't want people making money from the labor you sell then work for yourself and keep all the profit

The problem with that answer is that the regulatory burden of starting and running a business presents an artificial barrier to entry that makes it much harder than it should be for poor people to work for themselves. THAT's where "soft slavery" comes into play. We have an entire body of law designed to drive the poor into "employment" and keep them there. That's why we have employer-provided health care, for example.

There isn't too much regulatory burden besides getting a federal and state tax id number and possibly a sales tax certificate and Voila you are a sole proprietor

 

[dblack]

Then if it has so little value we should not expect an adult human to do it.

I don't. But if they want to anyway, it's their business.

What you all can't seem to accept is that some jobs aren't worth minimum wage. And what you're saying with MW laws is that those jobs shouldn't be allowed.

An employee makes a profit off of every worker

So what?

If you don't want people making money from the labor you sell then work for yourself and keep all the profit

The problem with that answer is that the regulatory burden of starting and running a business presents an artificial barrier to entry that makes it much harder than it should be for poor people to work for themselves. THAT's where "soft slavery" comes into play. We have an entire body of law designed to drive the poor into "employment" and keep them there. That's why we have employer-provided health care, for example.

There isn't too much regulatory burden besides getting a federal and state tax id number and possibly a sales tax certificate and Voila you are a sole proprietor

Depends on the business. Often some kind of license or permit is involved, expensive insurance is usually required, and if you intend to hire anyone to help you, you have to deal with the overhead of labor law (minimum wage, for example) and payroll taxes.

 

[danielpalos]

What you all can't seem to accept is that some jobs aren't worth minimum wage. And what you're saying with MW laws is that those jobs shouldn't be allowed.

Slavery is outlawed. What you are suggesting is "soft" slavery.

Nope. What I'm suggesting is strictly voluntary.

work or die, is what the right wing advocates.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I don't. But if they want to anyway, it's their business.

What you all can't seem to accept is that some jobs aren't worth minimum wage. And what you're saying with MW laws is that those jobs shouldn't be allowed.

An employee makes a profit off of every worker

So what?

If you don't want people making money from the labor you sell then work for yourself and keep all the profit

The problem with that answer is that the regulatory burden of starting and running a business presents an artificial barrier to entry that makes it much harder than it should be for poor people to work for themselves. THAT's where "soft slavery" comes into play. We have an entire body of law designed to drive the poor into "employment" and keep them there. That's why we have employer-provided health care, for example.

There isn't too much regulatory burden besides getting a federal and state tax id number and possibly a sales tax certificate and Voila you are a sole proprietor

Depends on the business. Often some kind of license or permit is involved, expensive insurance is usually required, and if you intend to hire anyone to help you, you have to deal with the overhead of labor law (minimum wage, for example) and payroll taxes.

Workman's comp for a sole proprietor and maybe liability but none of it is particularly prohibitive.

And you don't have to hire anyone