MW advocates - what are the downsides of minimum wage?

[Lesh]

And workers make the conscious decision to work for their employer.

People don't CHOOSE to work for shit wages.

That's a decision forced on them in one way or another.

Do you negotiate your wages DOWN?

Of course you don't

 

[dblack]

There's also no reason to pay labor more than the actual worth of the work.

As determined by....employers..who have a vested interest in paying labor as little as possible and have the means to influence public opinion and government policy

It's actually determined by who is willing to work for what wage and how important the work is to the company. If one company doesn't think IT is very important, for example, it would be very difficult to further your IT career by working there. If they do value IT, they will pay more to get qualified, experienced workers. Even in IT we see the depressive effect of foreign workers willing to do the work for less.

The value of anything is determined by the market, ie the people interest in paying for whatever it is you're selling. The reason some jobs don't pay much is that we don't value them much. We can't change that by decree. Attempting to do so is pissing in the wind.

If you want to help out poor people, give them some money. Passing a bunch of delusional laws to make ourselves feel better doesn't help anyone, except maybe the people patting themselves on the back for their "compassion".

 

[dblack]

"What does a $15 minimum wage do to the economy? Economists are starting to find out..."

Analysis | What does a $15 minimum wage do to the economy? Economists are starting to find out.

"The preliminary findings of a number of new studies were shared this month at the American Economic Association's annual conference in Philadelphia. The presenters all stressed that the findings were early, incomplete and subject to considerable revision.

"Overall, the papers presented a mixed picture on the effects of the minimum wage. Here's what they found..."

The problem with local and state minimum wage experiments is that they are, well, local. A city can ban low-wage jobs, and low-wage workers will simply go elsewhere to look for work. I've yet to see one of these studies that accounts for that. In that sense, raising minimum wages locally is a kind of gentrification, pricing poor people out of the locale that has decided it doesn't want them.

 

[Lesh]

The value of anything is determined by the market, ie the people interest in paying for whatever it is you're selling. The reason some jobs don't pay much is that we don't value them much. We can't change that by decree. Attempting to do so is pissing in the wind.

The "we" are employers who don't think they should have to pay for ANY labor if they can avoid it or manipulate a situation in a way that reduces labor costs.

Like crushing unions and fighting minimum wage increases

 

[dblack]

The value of anything is determined by the market, ie the people interest in paying for whatever it is you're selling. The reason some jobs don't pay much is that we don't value them much. We can't change that by decree. Attempting to do so is pissing in the wind.

The "we" are employers who don't think they should have to pay for ANY labor if they can avoid it or manipulate a situation in a way that reduces labor costs.

Like crushing unions and fighting minimum wage increases

No, it's all of us. The reason burger flippers don't make much money is that we don't value burger flipping that much. Fast food is popular because it's convenient and cheap. If the prices go up, less of us will buy burgers. So, you can put all the blame on the "greedy" business owners, but that's a cop out. They're competing for our business and we happily reward those who offer lower prices. The greed of consumers drives low wages every bit as much as the "greed" of the business owners.

 

[rightwinger]

Why do we expect our low skilled workers to make the most sacrifices?

Who else has gone ten years without a pay raise?

Who has remained the same low skilled worker for 10 years? Do you really think the people working for MW now are the same ones that were a decade ago? That's not realistic.

You're not expected to stay at MW. As you gain skill and experience, your value increases and so does your pay.

Who ever said it has to be the same worker?
If a college aged worker spends four years getting a historically low wage, he is being exploited. Whoever takes his place then gets exploited

Exploited. Kind of how GM was exploited by the unions for decades?

The reality is, if you spend years working for MW, you (for your own reasons) are not trying to advance. Doctors get paid crap wages during their internships and don't really start earning much until they're about thirty. Sounds like they should unionize and drive up medical costs some more.

GM made a conscious decision to sign union contracts.
Under those contracts they became the largest automaker in the world

And workers make the conscious decision to work for their employer.

And those workers actually made enough money to raise a family and buy a home

 

[rightwinger]

The value of anything is determined by the market, ie the people interest in paying for whatever it is you're selling. The reason some jobs don't pay much is that we don't value them much. We can't change that by decree. Attempting to do so is pissing in the wind.

The "we" are employers who don't think they should have to pay for ANY labor if they can avoid it or manipulate a situation in a way that reduces labor costs.

Like crushing unions and fighting minimum wage increases

No, it's all of us. The reason burger flippers don't make much money is that we don't value burger flipping that much. Fast food is popular because it's convenient and cheap. If the prices go up, less of us will buy burgers. So, you can put all the blame on the greedy business owners, but that's a cop out. They're competing for our business and we happily reward those who offer lower prices. The greed of consumers drives low wages every bit as much as the greed of the business owners.

I’m sure McDonalds is shaking in their boots

 

[rightwinger]

There's also no reason to pay labor more than the actual worth of the work.

As determined by....employers..who have a vested interest in paying labor as little as possible and have the means to influence public opinion and government policy

It's actually determined by who is willing to work for what wage and how important the work is to the company. If one company doesn't think IT is very important, for example, it would be very difficult to further your IT career by working there. If they do value IT, they will pay more to get qualified, experienced workers. Even in IT we see the depressive effect of foreign workers willing to do the work for less.

The value of anything is determined by the market, ie the people interest in paying for whatever it is you're selling. The reason some jobs don't pay much is that we don't value them much. We can't change that by decree. Attempting to do so is pissing in the wind.

If you want to help out poor people, give them some money. Passing a bunch of delusional laws to make ourselves feel better doesn't help anyone, except maybe the people patting themselves on the back for their "compassion".

The reason low skilled workers aren’t paid better is they have no negotiating power. Makes them easy to exploit

 

[dblack]

The reason low skilled workers aren’t paid better is they have no negotiating power. Makes them easy to exploit

And the reason they have no negotiating power is that their labor isn't worth much to society.

 

[anynameyouwish]

There are no downsides to a minimum wage law. What you perceive as a downside is a knowledge that you must start somewhere and typically thats at the bottom. People that start at the bottom should expect a bottom salary that pays the basic bills. It shouldnt pay for your new Bentley. Hence you shouldnt be making $200 per hour.

What basic bills are that...


Democrat high taxes or republican low taxes?

Food, clothing, education, and shelter

Then you agree the minimum wage should be a states decision and not a national one.

.

a moral and ethical decision made by the people who could actually do something to make it better.

And YOU KNOW who they are!



But I don't so if someone would send me a list that'd be great!

The bosses/ceo's/capitalists/politicalgiants should be thinking "let's pay them enough so no one suffers!
Let's see that everyone has a decent life! WE don't really need to have ALL the money in the world! Currently we give them peanuts. Lets also give them decent
housing, a decent life and cracker jacks"


Despite what most people think the distribution of wealth is NOT an uncontrollable force that follows its own rules. It is CEOs and CAPITALISTS and POLITICAL GIANTS all CHOOSING to pick first; First the HEAD GUY takes the BIGGEST LIONS SHARE and then the NEXT HEAD GUYS take most of what is left and everyone else has to divvy up the nickels and dimes. That is NOT a Mysterious market force. That's just greedy people having the power to have that advantage.

 

[rightwinger]

The reason low skilled workers aren’t paid better is they have no negotiating power. Makes them easy to exploit

And the reason they have no negotiating power is that their labor isn't worth much to society.

It is valuable
Low skilled labor used to be able to support themselves on their wages.
Now they need taxpayers to make up the difference

Employers keep the added profits

 

[georgephillip]

"What does a $15 minimum wage do to the economy? Economists are starting to find out..."

Analysis | What does a $15 minimum wage do to the economy? Economists are starting to find out.

"The preliminary findings of a number of new studies were shared this month at the American Economic Association's annual conference in Philadelphia. The presenters all stressed that the findings were early, incomplete and subject to considerable revision.

"Overall, the papers presented a mixed picture on the effects of the minimum wage. Here's what they found..."

The problem with local and state minimum wage experiments is that they are, well, local. A city can ban low-wage jobs, and low-wage workers will simply go elsewhere to look for work. I've yet to see one of these studies that accounts for that. In that sense, raising minimum wages locally is a kind of gentrification, pricing poor people out of the locale that has decided it doesn't want them.

I hadn't considered gentrification and raising the minimum wage; so far, there is some evidence a worker might see more money per hour and fewer hours on her check:

Analysis | What does a $15 minimum wage do to the economy? Economists are starting to find out.

"The statewide minimum wage in California gradually rose from $6.75 in 2006 to $10.50 in 2017, and it is slated to hit $15 in 2022. A team of economists at the University of California-Los Angeles examined the effect of the hikes so far, focusing on the impact on the restaurant industry.

"Here's what they estimate: “the increments in the minimum wage from 6.75 to $7.50 in 2007 and to $8 in 2008 were estimated to increase earnings in limited service restaurants slightly more than 10% but reduced employment by about 12%."

"The bump up to $10.50 by 2017 raised earnings in those restaurants by another 20 percent, but reduced employment by another 10 percent."

 

[anynameyouwish]

The reason low skilled workers aren’t paid better is they have no negotiating power. Makes them easy to exploit

And the reason they have no negotiating power is that their labor isn't worth much to society.

It is valuable
Low skilled labor used to be able to support themselves on their wages.
Now they need taxpayers to make up the difference

Employers keep the added profits

I envision a world where the rich are still rich and the well to do are still well to do and the foremen makes more than handy man BUT everyone has a nice place to sleep, clean clothes, plenty to eat, affordable health care, nice vacations every year, plenty for xmas....enough for a decent and happy life.

THAT pisses conservatives off!

All that happiness and peace and joy. It MAKES THEM SICK!

They seem to relish the thought of OTHER PEOPLE (never them, of course) suffering..

 

[dblack]

It is valuable

Unfortunately, society doesn't agree with you. We can try to change that by decree, but it probably won't work. You nailed it earlier in the thread, "the market adjusts, it always does".

I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to improve the lot of the poor. They're getting fucked by our legal structure in very real and tragic ways. But MW is delusional. It doesn't help but pretends that it does.

 

[danielpalos]

There's also no reason to pay labor more than the actual worth of the work.

As determined by....employers..who have a vested interest in paying labor as little as possible and have the means to influence public opinion and government policy

It's actually determined by who is willing to work for what wage and how important the work is to the company. If one company doesn't think IT is very important, for example, it would be very difficult to further your IT career by working there. If they do value IT, they will pay more to get qualified, experienced workers. Even in IT we see the depressive effect of foreign workers willing to do the work for less.

The value of anything is determined by the market, ie the people interest in paying for whatever it is you're selling. The reason some jobs don't pay much is that we don't value them much. We can't change that by decree. Attempting to do so is pissing in the wind.

If you want to help out poor people, give them some money. Passing a bunch of delusional laws to make ourselves feel better doesn't help anyone, except maybe the people patting themselves on the back for their "compassion".

simply changing the minimum wage can fix that.

 

[danielpalos]

"What does a $15 minimum wage do to the economy? Economists are starting to find out..."

Analysis | What does a $15 minimum wage do to the economy? Economists are starting to find out.

"The preliminary findings of a number of new studies were shared this month at the American Economic Association's annual conference in Philadelphia. The presenters all stressed that the findings were early, incomplete and subject to considerable revision.

"Overall, the papers presented a mixed picture on the effects of the minimum wage. Here's what they found..."

The problem with local and state minimum wage experiments is that they are, well, local. A city can ban low-wage jobs, and low-wage workers will simply go elsewhere to look for work. I've yet to see one of these studies that accounts for that. In that sense, raising minimum wages locally is a kind of gentrification, pricing poor people out of the locale that has decided it doesn't want them.

depends on convenience. simply living in the higher wage area makes it more convenient to work there. public transportation is usually better in bigger cities.

 

[danielpalos]

The value of anything is determined by the market, ie the people interest in paying for whatever it is you're selling. The reason some jobs don't pay much is that we don't value them much. We can't change that by decree. Attempting to do so is pissing in the wind.

The "we" are employers who don't think they should have to pay for ANY labor if they can avoid it or manipulate a situation in a way that reduces labor costs.

Like crushing unions and fighting minimum wage increases

No, it's all of us. The reason burger flippers don't make much money is that we don't value burger flipping that much. Fast food is popular because it's convenient and cheap. If the prices go up, less of us will buy burgers. So, you can put all the blame on the "greedy" business owners, but that's a cop out. They're competing for our business and we happily reward those who offer lower prices. The greed of consumers drives low wages every bit as much as the "greed" of the business owners.

the Poor are Worthless to the Right Wing under our form of Capitalism.

 

[Lesh]

THAT pisses conservatives off!

All that happiness and peace and joy. It MAKES THEM SICK!

They seem to relish the thought of OTHER PEOPLE (never them, of course) suffering..

Sadly they see their "wealth" as only how it compares to someone else.

I see mine as meeting my needs (and desires where there is excess)

 

[rightwinger]

The reason low skilled workers aren’t paid better is they have no negotiating power. Makes them easy to exploit

And the reason they have no negotiating power is that their labor isn't worth much to society.

It is valuable
Low skilled labor used to be able to support themselves on their wages.
Now they need taxpayers to make up the difference

Employers keep the added profits

I envision a world where the rich are still rich and the well to do are still well to do and the foremen makes more than handy man BUT everyone has a nice place to sleep, clean clothes, plenty to eat, affordable health care, nice vacations every year, plenty for xmas....enough for a decent and happy life.

THAT pisses conservatives off!

All that happiness and peace and joy. It MAKES THEM SICK!

They seem to relish the thought of OTHER PEOPLE (never them, of course) suffering..

Agree

Conservatives misrepresent this as ......Liberals want everyone to make the same money

 

[Lesh]

I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to improve the lot of the poor. They're getting fucked by our legal structure in very real and tragic ways. But MW is delusional. It doesn't help but pretends that it does.

Bullshit. You admit that the poor are getting screwed by our system...you just don't want to do anything about it