Muzlim rubbish

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Dan
Oh, boy, we're going to do direct translations now? Do I need to pull out the Bible and see what kind of things it tells its readers to do in direct translation?

What does the 6th commandment try to teach anyone that reads the bible? Isn't this in direct contrast to what the Koran (Qur'an) teaches?

Sure, you'll find some wacky entries in the bible, but all will pale in comparison to the murderous brainwashing being done in the Koran.

 

[janeeng]

Spirit, the unfortunate thing about someone going to a mosque as you mentioned, well, as I stated once a long time ago, a kid I know who's Grandfather, does just that, goes to one in NY, and meets, only thing is, he meets with terror on mind. How, because he is/was friends with the ass that masterminded the 93 bombing of WTC! a true FACT! so, I don't think I really believe in them too much.

Dan, yes, please read the bible and maybe Jim can start a new thread on here with a section on the BIBLE! or religion for that matter.

We can also go to born again Christians, I don't knock people of their religion, but I know one fact, that I truly don't believe in - Born agains, they feel they are the only ones that will enter heaven, similiar to the damn terrorists if you ask me, they also hate gays, not that I blame them, but I don't hate gays, I don't beleive in it - Born agains, claim, that they can't hate them, but no allowed to associate with them, and that God claims this to be the way! How??? I don't think God would ask of that, or hate either!!! and yes, I know this for a FACT - my inlaws are born again christians and have told me this, being the fact that I have a gay cousin.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by Spirit_Soul
I don't have any translations of koran, but I think the fact that this translation is 'wrong' is quite obvious, because there is no exact word for word translation from Arabic to English.

Also , it is a fact that this religion does not promote such violence, because if it did, then we would have long been muslims (long before the crusades) and we see that we are not.

No, I have not read koran and do not intend to just because I have to prove something in this forum.

All I did was request Nighttrain to stop posting that which is biased and has only one motive and that is to promote hatred. Such hatred will only create more problems , not solve them.

Oh boy...

1. There is no direct, exact, word-for-word translation of any language into any other language. But it is possible to translate from one language into another. Will there be differences in translations? Certainly - look at how many different versions of the Bible there are. But, in the case of the Bible, you'll notice that while sentence structure and some minor wording differs, the message does not. Therefore, some reliable people have translated the Koran into English, and their translations all agree on major theological points, then we can assume that, indeed, the Koran makes those points.

2. As far as us not being Muslims... Islam was spread by force throughout the Middle East, into Egypt and all of North Africa, and up through Spain. The Muslim armies subjugated the conquered populations and forced them to accpt Islam. They made inroads into France before being defeated in the 9th century (I believe). (BTW this is the only major French military victory I've ever heard of.) But the reason that all of the Middle East, Turkey, Southeast Europe, etc. is Muslim is because they were conquered by Muslim forces.

3. All that NT was doing was quoting the Koran. If the Koran is deemed to be violent and to inspire violence, should the religion it teaches be considered peaceful?

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by janeeng
We can also go to born again Christians, I don't knock people of their religion, but I know one fact, that I truly don't believe in - Born agains, they feel they are the only ones that will enter heaven, similiar to the damn terrorists if you ask me, they also hate gays, not that I blame them, but I don't hate gays, I don't beleive in it - Born agains, claim, that they can't hate them, but no allowed to associate with them, and that God claims this to be the way! How??? I don't think God would ask of that, or hate either!!! and yes, I know this for a FACT - my inlaws are born again christians and have told me this, being the fact that I have a gay cousin.

As a born-again Christian, please allow me to respond:

Yes, we believe that Jesus is the only way to God - because He proclaimed that Himself: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." - John 14:6. So it's not something we just decided, it is a verdict of God. This is why many Christians are so fervent about converting people. But I don't know too many Christians who will kill you if you refuse to accept Jesus; on the contrary, they will (hopefully) try even harder to convince you about it.
About hating gays... there are many Christians who, unfortunately, see homosexuality as some type of unforgivable sin, which it is not. However, it is a sin, plain and simple. I wish that Christians would show more compassion towards gays, but I don't blame any of them for condemning the homosexual lifestyle, as it is a sinful one. I personally do not hate gays, nor do I know anyone who hates them. and as far as not associating with them... I have a gay cousin as well, and it's hard knowing that he has chosen that lifestyle for himself, but our family doesn't disassociate ourselves from him.

 

[Spirit_Soul]

When you say, the major meaning does not change, you are assuming that the translation came from a bonafide source that was neutral and had no intention of changing the meaning of the scripture in order to provoke a negative response, but how do you know this? Are you omniscient?

Moreover, the Islamic Empire did have battles in the ancient times, just like any other empire, but after a while they made treaties, they stopped conquering until the crusaders came to them and started the whole thing all over. So, your arguement that they were more violent than the rest of the world is not valid.

it is a fact that all religions teach people to be civilized, there are many rules and regulations in Islamic scriptures that teach about the harmony in the society, just like there are many rules and regulations in Jewish scriptures and christian scriptures.

One such example is circumscion, they take a young child and do such a horrible mutation to his body, it is so sickening.

 

[5stringJeff]

1. Most of the people who translate Scriptures are members of that religion, and therefore would attempt to translate the texts as accurately as possible. So if the English versions of the Koran were translated by English-speaking Muslims, why wouldn't they translate their holy text as accurately as they knew how? I think your whole argument sounds like a conspiracy theory.

2. I never said that the Muslims were more violent than the rest of the world. I said that they converted by conquering and subjugating other peoples. The reason they stopped conquering, westwardly at least, was because they were defeated by the French in what is now Southern France. It's not like they suddenly decided to quit for no reason.

3. I never stated that Islam had no right to state its rules for living a 'civilized' life - although you'll find that in the Western religions, this is secondary to how to how one relates to God. What I said in my original post was that Islam teaches that its adherents should convert by force, and kill those who decide not to convert to Islam. NT provided quotes from the Koran to that effect.
And while I agree that circumcision is not pretty, it was commanded by God in the Old Testament to be done, as an outward sign showing that a person was a believer. The New Testament states that circumcision is not a requirement.
But if you are going to complain about circumcision, will you also complain about the Muslim practices of killing your sister if she doesn't wear a burqa?

Originally posted by Spirit_Soul
When you say, the major meaning does not change, you are assuming that the translation came from a bonafide source that was neutral and had no intention of changing the meaning of the scripture in order to provoke a negative response, but how do you know this? Are you omniscient?

Moreover, the Islamic Empire did have battles in the ancient times, just like any other empire, but after a while they made treaties, they stopped conquering until the crusaders came to them and started the whole thing all over. So, your arguement that they were more violent than the rest of the world is not valid.

it is a fact that all religions teach people to be civilized, there are many rules and regulations in Islamic scriptures that teach about the harmony in the society, just like there are many rules and regulations in Jewish scriptures and christian scriptures.

One such example is circumscion, they take a young child and do such a horrible mutation to his body, it is so sickening.

 

[eric]

Before we get into too much technical analysis of scripture, lets keep in mind that they are all translations, none perfect. Man not god wrote even the original scriptures! So there has always been a layer of human interpretation, influenced by the social dynamics of the time. Now before you judge my spirituality please read on with an open mind.

First let me state that I do believe in a higher power, an intelligent organization to this universe, but I refuse to take god and wrap him in humanity. Now I know that the bible states that we were created in his image, again an interpretation, but can intelligent people really believe that god, the one who created this universe, who is not bound by the laws of physics, be subject to the primal emotions of man, such as anger. Think about it; in a perfect being what purpose would anger serve? The answer is none. We have transposed these emotions unto god in an attempt to explain what we do not understand and possibly cannot comprehend. Look it is a fact in science that time and space themselves are relative not constants. We look at the second hand of a clock, it ticks at exact intervals, but yet we know from general relativity and rudimentary particle physics, that as the speed of an object increases relative to a stationary observer, the second hand of a clock on such object will tick slower, effectively creating a time differential between the two. Now this concept is almost incomprehensible to the human mind. Now if such simple scientific principles are at the edge of comprehension do we really believe we know the nature of god for sure. But yet we need a way of understanding, so we superimpose our human frame of reference upon him. Look I just used the word “him”, a human term, because I have no other way of communicating my thoughts. Him is term we can all understand.

Now where is this all going? I think my point is we should never feel that our religion is perfectly correct nor should we take too literally the words we read in our holy books. Yes we need them otherwise we would have no way of worship and understanding, but let us not be so pompous as to think we truly know what god wants or has in store for us. Rather I believe god is the universe of which we are a part of, and has instilled in us an innate sense of right and wrong. If we read something in scripture, which does not feel right, it probably is not.

Sure you can take any religious text and find passages which incite violence and make it even sound as if it is the will of god. Christianity has certainly done this and to a degree still does, but let us take a look at primarily Christian nations. They for the most part have learned from such mistakes, and have elevated their understanding beyond the mere words in the books. Why has this not happened in all nations? Look at how much more civilized the west is in comparison with the Middle East and Africa. You cannot just blame it on the power structure. Europe certainly had its share of ruthless rulers, yet these nations have evolved. Now I won’t dare tell you that Christians are perfect nor hold the keys to truth, it is just a little coincidental that most western nations were and many still are primarily Christian.

One reason might be that when one takes a good hard look at the New Testaments, one finds the same themes repeating themselves over and over. There are many but most can be classified as forgiveness, tolerance, and charity. Sure the old testament, which the 3 major religions share, is not so forgiving and tolerant, but let us not forget that the books of the old testament were passed by word of mouth for many generations as compared to the new testament, written approximately 60 years after the death of Christ. I think most Christians realize this and do not give it the same weight.

Another reason is that we do not defend each other just because of our religion, but rather hold each other accountable for such actions, even when they are not against Christians. It just seems we listen more to our hearts and are better able to discern what should and should not be literally taken from scripture.

Any thoughts?

 

[Spirit_Soul]

To Eric:

You have generalized this and made this a discussion among christians, where 'God' is on a Cloud waiting for you to do something wrong.

I don't want to convert any one here, but if you want to confirm your basic ideals read "Bhagavath Gita".


To GOP jeff :

YOU: "Most of the people who translate Scriptures are members of that religion, and therefore would attempt to translate the texts as accurately as possible. So if the English versions of the Koran were translated by English-speaking Muslims, why wouldn't they translate their holy text as accurately as they knew how? I think your whole argument sounds like a conspiracy theory."

ME: You are assuming that the person who translated this is a member of that religion. In truth, there are many western translations of many texts.

I can bring you a hindi biased translation of a Bible and say it is like a cult, but would that make it a cult? - That was the question.

Is your religion a cult? , ofcourse not. So, please don't call the other religion a cult too, because it is not.

"I never said that the Muslims were more violent than the rest of the world. I said that they converted by conquering and subjugating other peoples. The reason they stopped conquering, westwardly at least, was because they were defeated by the French in what is now Southern France."

I was talking about the Islamic Empire, not the Moors. The Islamic Empire is different from the Moors.

The statements you are making actually are very similar to the statements they make today in the Arab world: " The 'Christians' attacked and took over everything , made all the world into slaves and tortured and killed people. "

The christians mentioned here are actually different states : UK, Germany, France... etc and had different interests and had nothing to do with the religion.
So,

When you say "They", I hope you recognize that you are talking about : The moors, The Islamic Empire, Yusuf tribes in Africa, Afganistani tribes, Mugal Empire, Persian Empire, Ottoman Empire etc...at different times and different circumstances.

YOU: "What I said in my original post was that Islam teaches that its adherents should convert by force, and kill those who decide not to convert to Islam."

What I was trying to say is that you do not know if this is true, just like I do not know about the accuracy of this statement. Just because it is a popular opinion does not mean it is the truth.However, this is the truth: The real problem are the leaders who use Islam to reign over their lands.

No one is coming down with a sword at your throat in places like Dubai to make you convert into Islam.

Just like the American Christians try to convert Indian hindu families here , they too have peaceful conversions there.


YOU: "The New Testament states that circumcision is not a requirement.
But if you are going to complain about circumcision, will you also complain about the Muslim practices of killing your sister if she doesn't wear a burqa?"

ME: actually I do complain about the hair covering thing because I think it restricts their freedom. So, I asked a muslim friend of mine why they do that, she told me that they do it because it is considered chaste. I do not know about the killing of women, that is just sick. But I do not advocate any of these horrible practices like circumscision or the severe chastisement of women in Asian countries (which I have seen first hand).

 

[5stringJeff]

SS: "You are assuming that the person who translated this is a member of that religion. In truth, there are many western translations of many texts.
I can bring you a hindi biased translation of a Bible and say it is like a cult, but would that make it a cult? - That was the question.
Is your religion a cult? , ofcourse not. So, please don't call the other religion a cult too, because it is not. "

I never called Islam a cult. And I think that assuming that the people who translated the Koran into English were Muslims is an accurate assumption. If you feel differently, then we'll have to agree to disagree.


SS: "What I was trying to say is that you do not know if this [that Islam teaches that its adherents should convert by force, and kill those who decide not to convert to Islam] is true, just like I do not know about the accuracy of this statement. Just because it is a popular opinion does not mean it is the truth. However, this is the truth: The real problem are the leaders who use Islam to reign over their lands."

I can verify that it is true by searching the Koran, just like you can figure out what the Ten Commandments are by opening a Bible or Torah. NT did this (thanks NT, BTW) a few posts back. There is no grey area here, unless you go back to your nobody-can-translate-Arabic argument, which I think is ridiculous. It is not a popular opinion; it is the verifiable text of the Koran.
However, we are in full agreement that Islamic theocracies are problems.


SS: No one is coming down with a sword at your throat in places like Dubai to make you convert into Islam. Just like the American Christians try to convert Indian hindu families here , they too have peaceful conversions there.

I understand that many people convert to Islam peacefully. My original point was that, in Islam's birth, conversions were made with swords at the throat.
And, BTW, ever hear about people converting away from Islam in a Muslim country? Those who openly do so are often persecuted and/or killed.

 

[Spirit_Soul]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
I understand that many people convert to Islam peacefully. My original point was that, in Islam's birth, conversions were made with swords at the throat.
And, BTW, ever hear about people converting away from Islam in a Muslim country? Those who openly do so are often persecuted and/or killed.

May be I should elaborate on my points , the reason you know that they were converted by force is due to books written in the west, which fabricated most of the facts.

In truth, the people who were converted to Islam in those days did so to get benefits in their local regions. For example, education in an Islamic community.

But I guess we can agree to disagree, because all this discussion is , is just speculation and my word against yours, unless I get some proof but I am too lazy and won't do that . Bye.

 

[5stringJeff]

I can't just let that go...

So if I get my information from books passed down through the centuries, where do you get your info from? I mean, do you really have a problem with history books?

Originally posted by Spirit_Soul
May be I should elaborate on my points , the reason you know that they were converted by force is due to books written in the west, which fabricated most of the facts.

In truth, the people who were converted to Islam in those days did so to get benefits in their local regions. For example, education in an Islamic community.

But I guess we can agree to disagree, because all this discussion is , is just speculation and my word against yours, unless I get some proof but I am lazy and won't do that . Bye.

 

[Spirit_Soul]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
I can't just let that go...

So if I get my information from books passed down through the centuries, where do you get your info from? I mean, do you really have a problem with history books?

K i am back.

Its not the history books that are the problem, but if you read only one type of books about controversial issues then you will just "assume" that they are the truth.

But there are boths sides to every issue. The truth is often something else.

I find that people over there in Asian countries, which I have visited believe in so much hatred which we do not deserve. Also, I am seeing the same thing here, we are seeing so much hatred.

Anyway, my whole point basically sums up to this : Get a good translation of Koran, no religion advocates brutal killing.

I don't want to post more on this topic, You can reply to this, but please don't consider it rude if I do not reply back.

 

[NightTrain]

Great discussion here!

Spirit : Don't be weak.

You just got handed some real hard questions, you want to promote peace and defend Islam, here is your chance to shine. Convince us otherwise... world events make your task a difficult one.

Don't be weak like Spillmind, you need to defend your position with facts and common sense to convince us.

You've got some real hard questions to answer, if you don't have the answers then you need some help. I thought you were a muslim woman, if I'm correct then you should have access to someone who can answer the questions posed to you.

Janeen, I am a Protestant as well. I was raised Baptist. You and I need to talk.

Spirit, Islam teaches hatred and promotes violence. You can talk about great things that muslims have done in the last 4,000 years; nothing that I can think of has been beneficial to mankind from that group of people since then. The last Great Thing a muslim has accomplished is our Numerical system.

 

[spillmind]

'Don't be weak like Spillmind, you need to defend your position with facts and common sense to convince us.'

i didn't know i had a fan club.

and i thought i had no life.

 

[NightTrain]

All I can say, Spilly Boy, is that you've set a new standard for erroneous statements and socialist propaganda.

Congrats! From now on you're the new standard!

I really hope that you're smart enough to realize that it's sarcasm... deflate that little chest of yours, mister! lmfao

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by spillmind
and i thought i had no life.

So your brain IS functioning!

*****

Just wanted to congratulate Spirit on the way she has handled and conducted herself in all these threads. We all may have differing opinions, but she handled herself in a non-confrontational manner and has been civil throughout. (taking notes, spilly?)

 

[janeeng]

Yes, Spirit has conducted herself in a very nice manner. Unlike some other people on this board. I give her a 10 knowing how some of us feel about Islam and all, that she still will remain here and speak in her defense. Spill your a retard!

NT, I am almost scared now! hehehe! but I will talk with you!

 

[Spirit_Soul]

However, thank you for your comments.

if you want me to continue then here are some translations of koran I found and were given to me by a friend.


You who believe! Enter absolutely into peace (Islam). Do not follow in the footsteps of Satan. He is an outright enemy to you. (al-Baqara: 208)

"Whoever kills another person, unless it be for murder or corruption in the earth, it is as if he had murdered all mankind. And whoever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our Messengers came to them with Clear Signs but even after that many of them committed outrages in the earth." (Surat al-Ma'ida: 32)

"Do not kill your children for fear of poverty: it is We who shall provide sustenance for them as well as you. Killing them is certainly a great sin." (al-Isra: 31)


"Do not kill or take human life which God has declared to be sacred." (al-Anaam: 151)

I do not believe her authority, so I did a little of my own research.

This is the following quote by Dr. Atar who is battling the misconceptions over this religion and the American viewpoint that it is a cult.

"The word "Islam" means peace and submission. Peace means to be at peace with yourself and your surroundings and submission means submission to the will of God. A broader meaning of the word "Islam" is to achieve peace by submitting to the will of God.

This is a unique religion with a name which signifies a moral attitude and a way of life. Judaism takes its name from the tribe of Juda, Christianity from Jesus Christ, Buddhism from Goutam Buddha and Hinduism from Indus River. However, Muslims derive their identity from the message of Islam, rather than the person of Muhammed (P), thus should not be called "Muhammadans"."

"The word "Jihad" means struggle, or to be specific, striving in the cause of God. Any struggle done in day-to-day life to please God can be considered Jihad. One of the highest levels of Jihad is to stand up to a tyrant and speak a word of truth. Control of the self from wrong doings is also a great Jihad. One of the forms of Jihad is to take up arms in defense of Islam or a Muslim country when Islam is attacked. This kind of Jihad has to be declared by the religious leadership or by a Muslim head of state who is following the Quran and Sunnah."

Anyway , the basic translations which talk about battling the non believers is Symbolic.

Just like the battling of ADHARMA (Ah Dar mah) in Hindu Bhagavath Gita is symbolic and limited to one's daily life.

However, Islam does say that you need to take arms to defend Islam when it is being subdued and Muslims are being persecuted like Jews. The Fanatics of Islam take this to the extreme due to poor knowledge and false pride and a need to glorify islam for the wrong means.

In Islam, it is also true that the women have more rights and priveleges than in any other religion.

The giving birth part is not evil and woman is not something ugly and kept apart. But it is considered moral to imply chastisity of women to protect them from many dangers that are still prominent in today's society.


Were they forced and converted by force? : "According to the Quran, "There is no compulsion in religion" (2:256), thus, no one can be forced to become a Muslim. While it is true that in many places where Muslim armies went to liberate people or the land, they did carry the sword as that was the weapon used at that time. However, Islam did not spread by the sword because in many places where there are Muslims now, in the Far East like Indonesia, in China, and many parts of Africa, there are no records of any Muslim armies going there. To say that Islam was spread by the sword would be to say that Christianity was spread by guns, F-16's and atomic bombs, etc., which is not true. Christianity spread by the missionary works of Christians. Ten-percent of all Arabs are Christians. The "Sword of Islam" could not convert all the non-Muslim minorities in Muslim countries. In India, where Muslims ruled for 700 years, they are still a minority. In the U.S.A., Islam is the fastest growing religion and has 6 million followers without any sword around."

More coming in my next post and also NightTrain, I am not a muslim, I am a hindu who got brought up in America (second half of my life).

 

[Spirit_Soul]

Was Islam Spread by a Sword?

"According to the Quran, "There is no compulsion in religion" (2:256), thus, no one can be forced to become a Muslim. While it is true that in many places where Muslim armies went to liberate people or the land, they did carry the sword as that was the weapon used at that time. However, Islam did not spread by the sword because in many places where there are Muslims now, in the Far East like Indonesia, in China, and many parts of Africa, there are no records of any Muslim armies going there. To say that Islam was spread by the sword would be to say that Christianity was spread by guns, F-16's and atomic bombs, etc., which is not true. Christianity spread by the missionary works of Christians. Ten-percent of all Arabs are Christians. The "Sword of Islam" could not convert all the non-Muslim minorities in Muslim countries. In India, where Muslims ruled for 700 years, they are still a minority. In the U.S.A., Islam is the fastest growing religion and has 6 million followers without any sword around."

DOES ISLAM PROMOTE VIOLENCE AND TERRORISM? :

"No. Islam is religion of peace and submission and stresses on the sanctity of human life. A verse in the Quran says, [Chapter 5, verse 32], that "anyone who saves one life, it is as if he has saved the whole of mankind and anyone who has killed another person (except in lieu of murder or mischief on earth) it is as if he has killed the whole of mankind." Islam condemns all the violence which happened in the Crusades, in Spain, in WW II, or by acts of people like the Rev. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Dr. Baruch Goldstein, or the atrocities committed in Bosniaby the Christian Serbs. Anyone who is doing violence is not practicing his religion at that time. However, sometimes violence is a human response of oppressed people as it happens in Palestine. Although this is wrong, they think of this as a way to get attention. There is a lot of terrorism and violence in areas where there is no Muslim presence. For example, in Ireland, South Africa, Latin America, and Sri Lanka. Sometimes the violence is due to a struggle between those who have with those who do not have, or between those who are oppressed with those who are oppressors. We need to find out why people become terrorists. Unfortunately, the Palestinians who are doing violence are called terrorists, but not the armed Israeli settlers when they do the same sometimes even against their own people. As it turned out to be in the Oklahoma City bombing, sometime Muslims are prematurely blamed even if the terrorism is committed by non-Muslims. Sometimes those who want Peace and those who oppose Peace can be of the same religion."

Now i have to go, I think these explanations are very authoritative because they were spoken by a very good Islamic scholar.

 

[Man of 1951]

You know Spirit_Soul, I truly respect you for your position supporting and defending sides that you don't even believe in and giving a neutral opinion.

One thing that I find interesting is that in all these reply about people talking about Islam and what Islam is and what Islam has done and who Muslim's are.......none of you ppl are muslim or apparently even read the qu'ran. So i just find it amusing when you guys criticize a religion without truly knowing what it is. There are different perspectives to everything.

Oklahoma bombing was done by a christian...has anyone said that all christians are violent.

millions of people have died and several generations of blood lines genetically damaged due to the atomic bombs being dropped by a christian nation (by majority)....few people here in the west said anything about christians being violent

millions upon millions upon millions of ppl have died from starvation in africa and around the world, while there are Eating contests and professional Eaters in America, which is mostly a christian nation....few ppl here say anything about christians being greedy bastards.

on the other hand....9/11 happened and all of a sudden all muslims and the islamic religion itself are violent and deserve to die.

why is it that here in america where there is no rule to wear the scarf (for islamic women), there are still many islamic women wearing it....this is because you don't follow a religion because you're told, u follow it because it makes sense [ideally].....the scarf makes sense to millions of american islamic women and potentially millions and millions more around the world because when they meet males, if the males get attracted to the women, it will be not for the looks which are simply material, but for personality because thats what matters.

its easy to make assumptions based on what u see on TV/media, but taking a step back to look at the world from a neutral view, which Spirit_Soul has done, will give you a better perspective of everything.